Getting this plank lined up and lying flat

[rudybob]

The garboard is installed on both sides. I am fitting the next plank up. In the series of pictures my problem is evident. I cut the front of the strake from the plans using my logic, LOL. It fits rather nice but the strake will not butt against the garboard without it being raised (it's raised more than the picture shows) as seen in picture four. That is either because I need to fair the bulkhead more (I do) but that doesn't mean it's my sole issue. If I don't fit the front of strake two into the rabbet it will lie flat and butt against the garboard nicely.

 

I have done a lot of sanding, filing, scraping and bending in many directions.  The problem has been decreased but not eliminated. At this point I don't know which I should be concentrating on. 

 

The problem may very well have arisen from my previous shoddy work and not some cut I just made.

 

If more bending is called for fine if more fairing is called for fine. I just don't know which.

 

What would you recommend I do at this point? Besides get out the matches :-)  Thanks

 

Pictures 1 and 2 go together as do 3 and 4

[Gregory]

Didn't we talk about that earlier?

 

What does the plank look like laid out flat?

 

To lay flat on the boat needs to curve in a longitudinal direction, because it is laying on a curved surface..

A favorite method is to bend the plank  as seen here by Chuck in a Chapter from Cheerful.

 

https://syrenshipmodelcompany.com/resources/ChapterchapFour.pdf

 

 

 

 

There is another method called ' spiling ', which I talked about recently in another topic you started.

 

 

P.S.

For spilling you do need wider plank stock than the uniform planks, so it may not be practical if you do not have a source for that.

 

As my example shows, the planking material would have to be about 2x the final plank..

 

You can achieve the same result with the bending method shown above with the clamps.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Gregory

[allanyed]

Rudy

It appears that you forgot to taper the plank.  I see what looks like tick marks on the frames but they look to be spaced the same on each frame whereas they should be spaced closer together as you move forward and wider as you move aft.  If you don't taper the planks you will run out of space at the bow and have gaps aft.  All planks need to end in the rabbet fore and aft except if if you wind up needing a drop strake forward or a stealer aft.  As your vessel appears to be a small one, neither a drop nor a stealer should be required.    There are a lot of posts here at MSW on this as well as on at least one of planking tutorials here at MSW.    The https://thenrg.org/resources/Documents/articles/APrimerOnPlanking.pdf   article goes into spiling as well as tapering but you can also use the method Gregory references from Syren above as both work well.  

Allan

Edited March 3, 2022 by allanyed

[Roger Pellett]

You need to “spile” the plank.  Spiling, is nothing more than shaping the width of the plank so that it fits tightly against its neighbor.  As the plank is curving around the hull in three dimensions, it is impossible for you, thinking in two dimensions to understand the shape required.  As your photos demonstrate, trying to edge bend the plank while bending it around the frames doesn’t work either.

 

If you visualize the plank with X the longitudinal dimension Y the plank width and Z the dimension perpendicular the model’s centerline,  the idea is to vary the width of the plank (Y) as you move in the X direction.  If this is done properly it will lay flat against the frames and butt tightly against its neighbor.

 

The planking tutorials referenced by Allan and Gregory will show you how to do this.

 

Roger

 

 

[wefalck]

@rudybob, allow me to make a couple of observations following on from the discussion in the other thread and what the others have observed already:

 

- I don't actually see any tick marks on the frames, which seems to indicate that you have not yet determined the (approximate) width of each strake and their distribution over the hull. This is done by e.g. taking the distance between the keel-rabbet and the intended top of the planking along the sheer. Each distance, which varies along the boat, has to be divided into same number of equal plank widths. You then mark of these plank width on their respective frames

 

- Using a narrow strip of transparent paper, long enough to cover the whole boat, for each plank you then can mark out the upper and lower edge of the plank on the basis of the tick marks. However, you do this as the planking progresses for each plank in order to get the real lower edge, not the one you may make marked off earlier. You connect the points using a french curve or a thin wooden batten. This gives you the outline of the plank and you can shape the wood accordingly with some margin for fitting.

 

- Looking at your very first picture, I have the impression, that the assembly of frames has not been fully faired. You can check that by putting a thin batten onto the hull either parallel to the later planking or at a slightly oblique angle. If you fix it temporarily at one end and then press it down on each subsequent frame, you may notice that on some you get a buldge in the batten and in others there is gap to the frame. You will have work down cautiously the high frames. However I would check first, whether on the other side of the frame you may not have the opposite phenomenon, which indicates that the frame is either to far starboard or port and would need to be realigned ...

 

Hope that helps a bit

 

[rudybob]

On 3/2/2022 at 7:31 PM, Gregory said:

Didn't we talk about that earlier?

 

What does the plank look like laid out flat?

 

To lay flat on the boat needs to curve in a longitudinal direction, because it is laying on a curved surface..

A favorite method is to bend the plank  as seen here by Chuck in a Chapter from Cheerful.

 

https://syrenshipmodelcompany.com/resources/ChapterchapFour.pdf

 

 

 

 

There is another method called ' spiling ', which I talked about recently in another topic you started.

 

 

P.S.

For spilling you do need wider plank stock than the uniform planks, so it may not be practical if you do not have a source for that.

 

As my example shows, the planking material would have to be about 2x the final plank..

 

You can achieve the same result with the bending method shown above with the clamps.

 

 

We may very well have. I don't remember which is part of my issue. I don't retain things as well as I would like. Nothing for it at this point. I took your advice this time and bought two clamps like in your photo. I should have bought three. 

 

I didn't think I had to worry about bending the second strake. I see that I do. I learned. 

 

My next chore and don't laugh to hard was figuring which way to bend it. Also, what point on the strake I begin the bend and how much bend to put in it. Through trial and error, error and error I bent it the right way and what now appears the correct amount. 

 

Thank You so much for your advice and patience. 

[rudybob]

23 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

You need to “spile” the plank.  Spiling, is nothing more than shaping the width of the plank so that it fits tightly against its neighbor.  As the plank is curving around the hull in three dimensions, it is impossible for you, thinking in two dimensions to understand the shape required.  As your photos demonstrate, trying to edge bend the plank while bending it around the frames doesn’t work either.

 

If you visualize the plank with X the longitudinal dimension Y the plank width and Z the dimension perpendicular the model’s centerline,  the idea is to vary the width of the plank (Y) as you move in the X direction.  If this is done properly it will lay flat against the frames and butt tightly against its neighbor.

 

The planking tutorials referenced by Allan and Gregory will show you how to do this.

 

Roger

 

 

Great post. Thanks. You hit it. I did attempt as you describe previous to my post. Fear kept me from shaving off to much. Planks are plentiful and cheap if I run out so I will add you suggestion to my procedure

[rudybob]

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

@rudybob, allow me to make a couple of observations following on from the discussion in the other thread and what the others have observed already:

 

- I don't actually see any tick marks on the frames, which seems to indicate that you have not yet determined the (approximate) width of each strake and their distribution over the hull. This is done by e.g. taking the distance between the keel-rabbet and the intended top of the planking along the sheer. Each distance, which varies along the boat, has to be divided into same number of equal plank widths. You then mark of these plank width on their respective frames

 

- Using a narrow strip of transparent paper, long enough to cover the whole boat, for each plank you then can mark out the upper and lower edge of the plank on the basis of the tick marks. However, you do this as the planking progresses for each plank in order to get the real lower edge, not the one you may make marked off earlier. You connect the points using a french curve or a thin wooden batten. This gives you the outline of the plank and you can shape the wood accordingly with some margin for fitting.

 

- Looking at your very first picture, I have the impression, that the assembly of frames has not been fully faired. You can check that by putting a thin batten onto the hull either parallel to the later planking or at a slightly oblique angle. If you fix it temporarily at one end and then press it down on each subsequent frame, you may notice that on some you get a buldge in the batten and in others there is gap to the frame. You will have work down cautiously the high frames. However I would check first, whether on the other side of the frame you may not have the opposite phenomenon, which indicates that the frame is either to far starboard or port and would need to be realigned ...

 

Hope that helps a bit

 

I did tick off the bulkheads. It was a mess. I was able to do it quite nicely on the center bulkheads but as the bulkheads were not flat because I faired them at the bow and stern the tick marks were quite difficult for me and this difficulty led to the mess. I intend to revisit the ticking after I get those first two planks on as was suggested to me. 

 

Fairing. I faired the bow. I did that much only because I wanted to check my work before I made a mash of all the bulkheads. When I started laying strakes I could easily tell my fairing was wrong. This led me to conclude, right or wrong, that at my skill level I should wait to fair until I see how the strake will lie at any given bulkhead. When I read that fairing was done and planking was begun I interpreted that as "fair and forget" I think fairing needs to be done generally first then more specifically for my abilities. 

 

You are absolutely correct about the frame. I did the framing VERY BADLY and noticed this myself. There is nothing that I can think to do at this point. Starting new would be the only solution to fix that. I don't want to. I am willing to put up with the frustration as a trade off for continuing this model. I could buy a new one but that would assume I was not going to make other mistakes on it. 

 

Thanks for your reply it was very helpful 

Edited March 4, 2022 by rudybob
typo

[wefalck]

You could still 'beef up' the bulkheads where they are low with some wood shims and then sand them down where they are high. Always check for symmetry. This will be an interative procedure with quite a few iterations, but is time well-spent, because it will save you a lot of frustration later on - you will be never able to plank the boat properly, if this is not done ... 

[Gregory]

1 hour ago, rudybob said:

My next chore and don't laugh to hard was figuring which way to bend it.

No one is laughing..  This is not an easy concept to grasp, and it's great the way you have tackled the problem.

 

Let me review a couple of things.

 

 

This will work even if you are going to use the clamp and bend method.

I mentioned how I put masking tape on the area to be planked.  You can trace along the edge of the plank that is in place.

In this case it was the edge near my pencil.

The other edge of the plank has to be estimated.  If you are using pre-cut planks you can account for any tapering you have done.

 

 

When you lay the tape out flat, it will look like this.  You can use this as a pattern for your bending station.

My plank tapered from 5 to 4mm, and I trimmed along the bottom edge.  In your case, working up from the garboard, I would trim what would be the top edge when the boat is upright.  You want to preserve the shape of the plank that is already in place because it will be a perfect fit.

 

 

This is my plank I cut from veneer, but you can do the same thing with clamping a strip..

Let me know if I can shed any more light on this...  We really look forward to seeing your progress..

 

Perhaps you can see how you could have used this method to shape your garboard.  You could have used the tape to trace along the rabbet..

Edited March 4, 2022 by Gregory

[mtaylor]

If you haven't done so, have look in the planking tutorials area and read them.  They'll go a long way in helping you.   Also there's some tools in this folder like the planking fan to help-    

And heres's more:

https://modelshipworld.com/forum/98-planking-downloads-and-tutorials-and-videos/

[Louie da fly]

I'm glad you're getting it sorted out, Rudybob (having had enough problems myself with the same thing).

 

I think Gregory's most recent post explains the issue very clearly.

 

Steven

[druxey]

Even better than masking tape (if you go that route) is 3M matt finish removable tape. It has a slightly frosted surface that you can see through and it takes a pencil line really well.

[Gregory]

The thing that is hard to wrap your head around, is that the curved plank lays flat on the hull and appears to be straight when viewed head on..

 

But after you have done it a few times, it comes quite naturally.. 

 

 

Here is a good example of the contemporary model of Winchelsea.

Those planks would look crazy curved if laid out flat.

[rudybob]

6 hours ago, wefalck said:

You could still 'beef up' the bulkheads where they are low with some wood shims and then sand them down where they are high. Always check for symmetry. This will be an iterative procedure with quite a few iterations, but is time well-spent, because it will save you a lot of frustration later on - you will be never able to plank the boat properly, if this is not done ... 

Yes. I have plenty of shim material and intend to do just that. Thanks.  "iterative" A new word for me. I like that

[rudybob]

6 hours ago, Gregory said:

No one is laughing..  This is not an easy concept to grasp, and it's great the way you have tackled the problem.

 

Let me review a couple of things.

 

 

This will work even if you are going to use the clamp and bend method.

I mentioned how I put masking tape on the area to be planked.  You can trace along the edge of the plank that is in place.

In this case it was the edge near my pencil.

The other edge of the plank has to be estimated.  If you are using pre-cut planks you can account for any tapering you have done.

 

 

When you lay the tape out flat, it will look like this.  You can use this as a pattern for your bending station.

My plank tapered from 5 to 4mm, and I trimmed along the bottom edge.  In your case, working up from the garboard, I would trim what would be the top edge when the boat is upright.  You want to preserve the shape of the plank that is already in place because it will be a perfect fit.

 

 

This is my plank I cut from veneer, but you can do the same thing with clamping a strip..

Let me know if I can shed any more light on this...  We really look forward to seeing your progress..

 

Perhaps you can see how you could have used this method to shape your garboard.  You could have used the tape to trace along the rabbet..

This is great and I intend to try it out. Thank You

[rudybob]

When I hold the strake in my hand I think...NO WAY this is going to fit. Then I put it in place and it really fits. I am happy. I could not have done this without the serious help I get in this forum. Thanks Men!      Where's MY GLUE ?     ....just kidding :-) More stuff to do before permanence sets in