Wasa by md1400cs - FINISHED - Corel - 1:75

[Baker]

As always.

Great job with the rigging.

 

Great car
My fastest drive.
200km / h (about 124 miles) in Germany on the autobahn with our Z4.

Grrr. only 6 miles less  

haha

[EJ_L]

That sure sounds like a fun time driving! I got my Mustang up to 110mph on an abandoned air strip when I was stationed in Monterey in the Navy. That was good for me with out some professional assistance!

 

Your rigging is coming along great even with the mistakes, which while I know they are frustrating, I am learning a lot about proper rigging techniques, knots, blocks and bits by watching you make them. So thank you for showing us and admitting your whoops moments!

 

As for speed I wouldn't worry about that. You may be slower than many others on her but, the end results of all this time you are taking is truly remarkable. Keep it up and as always I am looking forward tot he next update!

[md1400cs]

Popeye - thanks – still lot’s of learning going on – rigging is a new adventure for me. Getting it right is hit-and-miss.

 

Patrick – Autobahn is certainly an adventure – 124 mph - nice ! Thanks for your kind words as well. From what I read that might be a speed at which you see flashing bright lights behind you – asking you to Get Out Of The Way - ha ha

 

EJ – good use of a runway - Glad that my mistakes are helpful. Glad to share. I’ve learned so much from members here; all reciprocal indeed.

 ------------------

 That M3 experience was super-intense. I’ve been a car nut since HS. Always drove sort of “sport type cars”. Had a Supra, two Eclipse GSXs (their only all wheel drive variant for that marque). My current is a 350Z – it will prob, be my last “real” car, prob my fave of all the cars that I have had. All of which have had standard trannies.

 

I’d love an F Type Jag but can’t afford it. And as my wife says, “what are you going to do with it, race on the way to Wholefoods, and Costco?

 

 

Cheers,

[woodo]

What's wrong with racing to Wholefoods...?  Let alone racing to Costco....!

[md1400cs]

woodo,

I was actually trying to think of a proper response for the Admiral. And you are right, what's wrong with that? - indeed.

In fact whatever she needed will arrive back home sooner than she could have expected. Win win - I think...

 

Funny thanks!

 

Cheers

[woodo]

...my Admiral disagrees in the strongest possible words..........as to be expected....

 

On a total different issue, considering Vasa for my next build, being inspired by your build.

[md1400cs]

woodo,

Thanks - kind of you to say as much. There have been discussions (many) about the accuracy of the Vasa kits available.

Corel is well entrenched at the bottom of the list as it fails in so many areas. For-all-intents-and-purposes I've pretty much had to "bash" this kit,

and it still misses, compared to other kits available....

 

That said the ship is certainly very pleasant to look at (the Vasa), along with the thousands of photos available it certainly is "doo-able" indeed.

 

I started this Corel way before I knew what I was doing and before I joined MSW - where I got my sea legs, with learning curves that were very steep (still learning)

 

woodo thanks for dropping by and posting, very nice of you.

 

 

Cheers,

[popeye the sailor]

Thanks - kind of you to say as much. There have been discussions (many) about the accuracy of the Vasa kits available.

Corel is well entrenched at the bottom of the list as it fails in so many areas. For-all-intents-and-purposes I've pretty much had to "bash" this kit,

and it still misses, compared to other kits available....

 

Ohhhh, I don't know about that Michael..........I think you've done just as well,  as others who have tried.   here's one for the 'ole back pocket..........no one will ever know exactly how she looked,  it's anyone's guess,  and any scholar's dream      build on my friend.......she looks awesome!

[lambsbk]

Like Denis says Michael - it really is an awesome looking build.

I loved those last photos of the entire build.

 

Dave

[md1400cs]

Popeye, thanks encouraging indeed. Yes exclusive of the hull and its details, the rest is indeed a bit of a mystery. Certainly of most ships up to the late 1600s. Then it got all more "modern" with plans and all that were repeated over and over again. Along with technical and operating improvements with each new build.

 

Dave - thanks as well. When I complete the rest of the standing rigging I will post some photos - I have a lot of evenings now totally open for seat-time. The Admiral knows that she cannot 
"interfere" during Dodger games ha ha (I do, however, go into sports hibernation when Dodgers are off season - and wake back up in April each year) (:-) 

 

Mates - as always thanks for dropping by - always appreciated !!

 

Cheers,

[md1400cs]

Hi Mates,

 

Reaching a sort of dilemma. Thinking of also rigging catharpins. So went to my files and saw these two jpg’s. Both of the 1/10^th (early and completed versions)

 

Both have lower catherpins added to main lower shrouds in different forms. So went to Anderson – it seems that the 1/10^th (completed) is using an “English design” from the early 1600s. Hmmm??

 

The Dutch, according to Anderson, did not use these for the lower shrouds, but were limited to only English ships – or so it seems – until later.

 

Well it would be much extra work (I would rig them English style with the blocks) Looks nicer ha..BUT---

 

It is Sat – so I will enjoy a Single Malt and think about it for tomorrow, or not....

 

 

 

Cheers,

[EJ_L]

I guess that will come down to how fast you think the Dutch caught on to English ideas. The English were by far better at record keeping during this time period and therefore, a lot of building and rigging for models has been based on their work regardless of nation being modeled. Also as almost all the seafaring nations eventually put into practice the same methods it then comes down to not if they used them but when. The next issue is some ships adapted new practices faster than others based on the shipwright, captain and refit schedules. Many shipwrights were set in there ways and would not change unless the Crown ordered them too. Captains could often be the of the same mind of if it's not broke don't fix it. Ships could remain the same for many years even through rebuilds with out improvements just replacements. This made changes come slowly and sporadically and could make 3 ships within the same 10 year span have practices dating from the past hundred to the past 6 months with no rhyme or reason as to why one has the upgrades and the other does not.

 

In regards to the Vasa though, I would think that there would not have been too many English improvements. Both master shipwrights were long entrenched in their own practices of building ships. Also, with all the delays and problems that came about I would guess that there was a pressure to complete her and get her launched and so the tried and true practices would most likely have been implemented as they would save time by not adding new and unfamiliar elements to an already difficult build. The final thing I would say is while they may have been implemented later, she did not last long enough to have a beginning much less a later for improvements.

 

On the 1/10th model, I would guess was built off of common practices of the time. Many things were changed and put into standard practice after Vasa and so while Vasa herself probably did not have many of the rigging features learned from the English, following ships did and were considered the standard which is what much early research was based off of.

 

Or I could be completely wrong and you need to make lots of changes!   I think I will join you in that drink though as I have a lot of studying and planning on my own builds to do!

[md1400cs]

EJ thanks, as always, for your thoughts and analysis.

 

The Dutch were certainly playing “catch-up” to the English and French of their time. I would also imagine that countries with royalties were not “open” to following possibly enemies’ better build protocols. And certainly these countries were also very ethnocentric as well. And as you mentioned so were the shipbuilders themselves.

 

With regard to ship captains it reminded me of reading somewhere that certain new ships, once away from land, would be ordered by their captains to “loose” some of the heavy gilding in order to increase their speeds while on duty. This may be only a tale – but seems as if it would be a good idea. Much of these heavily gilded galleries were certainly for the “eyes”.

 

Regarding the Vasa – it was certainly, as you mentioned, rushed near its completion in order to be available for the Royal launch; Hocker, as well as others write of this in their Vasa books as well. Certainly part of the reason she sank.

 

So, yes these catharpins certainly were not fitted, if indeed they were even intended to be part of Vasa’s rigging. 

 

It appears as if, and Popeye mentioned this in an earlier post, “who knows how she was really fitted”. Those fore and mainmast knighthead brace pins come to mind – again –the 1/10^th differs from the original in this regard, along with the catharpins.

 

My dilemma was actually one of trying to improve my skills with rigging with these complicated looking little “things”; I thought that I would give them a whirl. I still have not decided (maybe one more pour will help!)

 

PS: The best of these that I have ever seen were on B.E’s build log (Pegasus)– amazing work.

About 150+years later in design –and much more complicated to replicate. Again thanks for your thoughts.

 

Cheers,

 

 

[Baker]

It seems that the Dutch were ahead of the English in the early 17th century

 

In 1604 an Englishman complained

That an English merchantship  of 100 tons needed a crew of 30 men. 

A Dutch merchantship of 100 tons needed only 10 men.

 

Building and rigging a ship the Dutch way in the 17th century :
Keep it simple but good.
You need fewer people
You make more profit.

 

 

Source : Het schip (The ship) by Bjorn Landstrom.

 

Ps,

If you have an employer (the king of Sweden). Who wants Halfway the build  a bigger ship with more cannons.
Then this view is not correct.
Then you get a badly built ship that sinks....

[md1400cs]

Patrick,

 

Thanks for sharing-  interesting twist on historical fixed business costs of that day. Bottom lines, including labor costs, were even then certainly important.

Would be also interesting to understand how the Dutch could reduce on-board required crews by 60% for the same type of vessels,  how the English, by comparison kept their ships much more complicated to operate.

 

[popeye the sailor]

I heard my name mentioned.......      another thing to think about is that most copied techniques in rigging,  were learned through war and captured ships.   Dutch and Swedish ships were geared more towards merchant,  than war ships {not to say they couldn't handle themselves},  so they're rigging techniques were mainly their own........pure from outside influences.   the diagram I saw above didn't have them.........although the one picture with the block and tackle was pretty interesting.    it's your baby Michael......do as you feel  

[md1400cs]

Dennis, thanks - 

So decided to “play around” with English style catharpins; work in progress.

Google images not helpful either regarding my bubble in pic 3. 

To be continued or omitted – not so sure about this,

 

Thanks for all of your kind remarks – as always.

 

Cheers,

[Blue Ensign]

Hi Michael, your Masthead and shrouds look great, and I know where you're coming from being attracted to  interesting little rigging exercises, I'm prone to it myself.

 

I don't know if it's perspective from the photo but the blocks look a little oversize for the Catharpin rigging to my eye, and I see that you have used a triple block rather than a deadeye in your trial, both Anderson and Lees show deadeyes, unless I'm missing something. 

Lees has a good drawing of the English setup on page 43 of his Masting and Rigging book.

It seems to me that the falls between the blocks could be rigged off model (set the appropriate distance apart) and the line made fast around itself. The Catharpin legs can then be secured to the shrouds and rigged thro' the deadeyes, maintaining and controlling the tension.

 

There seems to be  sufficient doubt about both fitting and style for anyone to really gainsay you whether you decide to fit or not, but it would be an interesting little feature on your Vasa.

 

B.E.

[md1400cs]

B.E.,

 

Thanks for your kind thoughts as well as your always very excellent advice.

Yes those blocks are indeed out of scale (and wrong). I woke up in the middle night, and my mind kept me awake thinking about how to do this correctly. I knew then that all of it was of the wrong scale.

 I actually wanted to return to my earlier pleasant dream of living a Gauguin style of life in the South Pacific, but no! my head kept spinning around the catharpins rigging issue.

 

I don’t have access to your source. I did Google it, available reference, but not that specific page.

 

My Roth, Mondfeld, Mansis, and Peterson sources were to no avail either, Anderson being the only one. Yes, in fact a deadeye is called for. Staring at the 1/10^th I kept seeing triple blocks then squinted and saw the correct deadeyes.

 

I’m determined to (after two work sessions) to see this detail through. As a rigging novice I was stymied.

 

I will follow Anderson’s procedure. I think that I understand this now – my working vocabulary is still limited Hmmm. Ironically enough his explanation and drawings are perfect – I just did not understand all of it. I will also use one continuous strand through the deadeyes to the shrouds. 

B.E. thanks so much for still following along and always helping when you see something really wrong – so appreciated - As always,

 

Regards.

it at first read.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Blue Ensign]

Michael I will message the Lees info to you tomorrow.

 

B.E.

 

[md1400cs]

Hi Mates,

 

B.E.  thank - made those just not installed -

 

Finished all of the ratlines,

Happy to leave clove hitches behind  - Now continuing with the various needed stays. Started with the mizzen topgallant stay.

 

Needed a mouse – (according to Corel), then a double block is attached at the end of the stay – which then slips off to port and starboard main lower mast shrouds with four blocks. So served a line added a loop and then the mouse bit.

But then decided to look at the 1/10^th Hmmm (not before ha ha)- NO it’s a double line from the top of the mizzen topgallant top. Grrrr

Then looked at the Billings sheets that Karl sent – seems to be missing altogether. I then reviewed his log and these are in fact on his build.

So the work bellow was a waste of time (though these “mouse” bits are getting easier (;-)

So back to square one with this bit.

PS: The mouse can’t be saved – I already had cut the rope – too short for the fore topgallant stay.

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

 

 

 

[md1400cs]

Part 2 of attempting to build and install catharpin for the lower main. First attempt was wrong, and out of scale.

 

Referred to Anderson, but the jpg that B.E. sent made it much easier to understand.

 

Again B.E. thanks for always being kind enough to also let me know when I’m doing something really wrong – always appreciated indeed.

 

As mentioned in an earlier post this bit seems to be an English type of construction. Though it is installed on the Vasa 1/10^th with this type of assembly.

 

 

Put a positioning cradle to help with the install, and secured it into position. Then laced the middle ropes - on each side - to allow for proper tension as well proper alignment.

 

 

Then removed the basswood cradle and attached the other eight lines.

 

 

I’m very happy with this extra detailing – It was a stretch but nice bit of learning.

 

 

 

I looked up the word cat-harpin, apparently, it is – of course- nautical in nature (any number of short ropes gathering in shrouds near their tops) - but the etymology is uncertain. Hmmm.

 

=================

 

Standing rigging is coming along – hope to attach bowsprit mast this coming week.

 

 

A few more detail shots of latest rigging work

 

 

As always – thanks for your kind words, likes, and dropping by.

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Karleop]

Hola Michael:

Your details looks very nice!!

 

Saludos, Karl

[md1400cs]

Karl,

 

Thanks for your nice thought - appreciated --

 

Regards,

[woodo]

Hallo Michael,

 

Still find your ship fantastic realistic, far away from shiny hulls and bright colours. A benchmark for me.

I do have a question. The guns on the upper deck have almost no room to recoil, other then jumping on the gratings which will be severely damaged.

And how to reload if they cannot roll back ?

Perhaps you have an opinion on this matter ?

Trying to build La Couronne, I found the same issues, which I solved by flattening the gratings to almost deck level allowing the horses to roll freely back.

But I doubt this is a correct solution.

 

Have a good day,

 

Koen.

[baskerbosse]

Problem with the lack of space for the guns is probably due to Corel errors in the hull shape.

At least for the Corel Vasa, the deck is WAAY to narrow.  

I am not familiar with the La Couronne..
Unfortunately rather difficult to do anything about after the hull is built.. :-(

 

-Peter

[EJ_L]

On my La Couronne build by Corel, there was just barely enough room to have the guns completely inboard. I framed my cargo hatches a little smaller to give a tiny bit more room though in reality it would still be extremely tight when the guns were inboard.

 

Michael, your rigging is looking great and I do love that catharpin. Whether it was really there or not is hard to say but it looks like it belongs and adds a cool element of extra detail. I'm also excited to finally see your bowsprit and spritsail topmast installed as that is one of the unique features to the time period that in my opinion, make these ship stand out.

[Baker]

Great rigging Michael.

 

And about the lack of space for the cannons on the upper deck.

On the 1/10 model in the museum the long cannons are now placed on deck.

How could they ever load these cannons?

Picture is from the www.Vasamuseet

[md1400cs]

Koen,

 

Thank you for your very nice remarks – very kind indeed.

 

Your comments regarding the cannons are correct. This has also been one of the issues with Corel’s Wasa kit. The hull framing is much too narrow as Peter mentioned resulting in the problem that you noted.

 

I wanted to create accurate gratings along with correct frames. As a result cannons have little room indeed. That was my choice of compromise.

 

Patrick’s photo is also very intriguing – The Vasa had extremely long cannon barrels on its weather deck. Yes! How could they possibly re-load those guns?? And Patrick thanks, as well for your comment.

 

EJ.

 

Thanks, your thoughts are much appreciated as well.  I got lucky with that extra bit of detailing, glad that you like it as well. This build is finally coming along. I hope to also start lathing the yards very shortly.

 

 

[popeye the sailor]

superb rigging Michael....I also thought the catharpins were an interesting bit of rigging.   different than from what I've seen