Plastic or Wood models? Your Favorite?

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:36 PM, Bill97 said:

Got the new ModelExpo 2023 catalog today!  These guys are killing me!  This is like a kid looking at a Christmas toy catalog. All these wooden ship models are incredible. How in the world does anyone ever decide. 

 

  I find that research 'old kits' and looking for them (often at a bargain price) on the internet a pastime ...  'Guess contemporary catalogs - like the gardening ones with pictures designed to make the gardener 'green with envy' - are a way to generate interest.  Did that start with the Sears "Wish Book" - with all the Christmas goodies for the entire family that came out before the end of Summer ... in time to start all those lists for Santa !

[Bill97]

I am sure that is the case Johnny. My ship wish list will be generated by this catalog! 😊

[Roger Pellett]

It depends on what the ship was designed to carry or in other words the trade in which she was intended to sail.

 

 As I posted above, Endeavor was built as a Collier.  Coal is a bulky cargo of not particularly high value. Voyages were short and freight rates were priced as a commodity. In this trade, economics dictated full lined (bluff bowed) vessels of modest dimensions that could be sailed by small crews.  These ships could carry maximum cargo while minimizing tonnage based charges that were assessed each time they entered a port.  

 

Cutty Sark on the other hand was built to haul tea, an expensive cargo but not especially bulky cargo, long distances from China to the markets in London.  There was a major price premium for early deliveries.  I believe that this trade involved just one round trip per year.  Tonnage assessed charges would, therefore be much lower in relation to the value of the cargo.  Unlike those for coal, freight rates for hauling tea could vary depending on the reputation of the ship.  If the shipper of the tea believed that the vessel could get it to market quicker he would pay more.  All of this required a ship that could travel at high speed over the length of a long voyage.  This dictated several factors:  First a long hull as maximum speed is limited by the length of the vessel's Waterline.  Second, fine lines (your sharp v shaped bow) to minimize resistance, and third, a hull that would permit carrying sail in strong winds.

 

Roger

[Bill97]

Roger I could not help but wonder if you were possibly a professor or teacher of maritime subjects. Your knowledge and ability to explain it in layman terms is excellent. I checked your MSW profile to see if I was correct.  Wow Roger, very impressive background.  I need to look for your book. With your interest in the American barge did you ever venture to Jeffboat barge company in Jeffersonville, IN?  Massive barge building company on the Ohio River that built barges for many many years before recently being closed up. It is (was) directly across the river from where I live. Employed thousands of people over the years. I certainly appreciate you sharing your expertise. 

 

[Roger Pellett]

Bill,  The American Steel Barge Company, the subject of my book, built Great Lakes Steamships and barges that they towed.  The vessels were built in the 1890’s to a unique patented “whaleback” design.  It is a fascinating story involving East Coast financiers forming a shipbuilding company in the wilds of Northeast Minnesota, but has no connection to the American Commercial Barge Lines company (ACBL) that you are familiar with.

 

Coincidently, I personally have a connection with ACBL.  In 1969 I was hired by Dravo Corporation.  Dravo was a large Engineering and construction company headquartered  in Pittsburgh PA.  Among other things they owned and operated a large shipyard on the Ohio River near Pittsburgh as well as Union Barge Lines.  Both were direct competitors to ACBL.  I never worked for either of these Dravo units.  Instead I was assigned to a division that built piping systems for nuclear and fossil fueled power plants.  In the late 1980’s Dravo closed their shipyard and sold their Barge Line to ACBL.  They sold the Pipe Fabrication Division that I worked for to an investment group but ACBL wound up with Dravo’s Pension obligations including mine.  I was sad that it was necessary to close their shipyard.

 

In 2002 my son graduated from Purdue University’s Engineering program and was immediately hired by Toyota for their Princeton Indiana plant.  They live in Evansville.  We usually visit them in the fall; summer is too hot.  One of these times I intend to go over to visit the Steamboat Museum near Jeffersonville.

 

Roger

[mtaylor]

23 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Which of the two types is more difficult to build, or is there really not enough difference in the build process to have a bearing on the model selection?

I think it depends on nation and era that interests you as well as ship type.   

[Bill97]

That is an interesting connection Roger. Sadly the Jeffboat barge shipyard is closed and the plants have been demolished and hauled away. There is a lot of discussion going on in the Jeffersonville city leadership as to development of this very large area right on the banks of the Ohio river (residential, commercial, parks, etc). Will be interesting to see what the eventually decide to do. You should visit Jeffersonville. There is a newly converted old railroad bridge that is now a beautiful walking bridge over to my side of the river in Louisville. You can see the Belle of Louisville. One of the last actual paddle wheel steamboats. 
 

mtaylor I am looking at the OcCre Endeavor. I really like its history. However I noticed through our discussion that it is a bluff bow. Just wondering if I should expect it to be more difficult. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Bill97

[GrandpaPhil]

My personal advice is to go for it.

 

You have plenty of woodworking experience already and have built some of the most difficult plastic kits around.

 

I believe that you will be fine.

Edited May 8, 2023 by GrandpaPhil

[Bill97]

Thanks Phil. I appreciate your encouragement. There are 2 now that I am looking at seriously. Will see how my decision process plays out. 

[OllieS]

Just had a look at the Occre site where instructions are downloadable. They get around the very bluff bow with some solid wood at the prow, which might be a comfort. I don't know about other kits but  personally I would be tempted by Caldercraft. Either way I absolutely recommend getting a copy of the anatomy of the ship book for the Endeavour. There are plenty second hand, but shop around because the price varies wildly. Then you could start a semi-scratch adventure by trying to follow the book using a kit as a basis. 

Almost forgot.. I would go for a double planked model every time as there is more room for error.

Edited May 8, 2023 by OllieS
added comment

[Bill97]

Thanks OllieS. Being double planked is one of the things I like about the OcCre Endeavor. I think the little symbol on their page indicates it is double planked. I have also recently being interested in the OcCre Amerigo Vespucci. That looks like a beautiful ship. However not much history. 

[Bill97]

Gentlemen, call me crazy and a glutton for punishment, but at this point in time if I was to purchase my next build, I know what it would be. Based on my research of the product, the company, their customer care and assistance, and the simple fact I think it is an incredibly beautiful ship I would absolutely love to build and display. I have decided to build the OcCre 1-100 Amerigo VESPUCCI. It is double planked, roughly a meter long, rated in the category of their most difficult builds, and full of color which I especially like. OcCre also has loaded a complete series of YouTube videos to assist in the build. It will probably be about a year before I finish my Soleil Royal and make my purchase so there is plenty of time for you guys to slap me on the back of my proverbial head and convince me this may not be a great idea. 😊

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Bill97

[Bill97]

Well gentlemen thanks for all your comments and help. I thought I had made a decision as I said above. One of the reasons I wanted to build a wooden ship is my enjoyment of the appearance of fine woods. I have now discovered that the hull of the Amerigo VESPUCCI is puttied and sanded to a fine layer so that it resembles the metal hull of the actual ship. At this point I don’t know if that is what I am looking for. So back to studying over what wood model I will build next. Again thanks for all your comments. 

[Roger Pellett]

Bill,

 

If you read the posts on the forum by people who actually build these kits it is apparent that a chief complaint is the quality of the woods supplied, especially the substitution of species that don’t live up to marketing hype.  Two principal culprits being mystery woods marketed as  “Mahogany and walnut.”

 

I am in no way endorsing or otherwise promoting them but the exception seems to be kits offered by vanguard and Syren.  Both offer quality woods, sometimes as extra cost options.

 

Roger

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, Roger Pellett said:

Bill,

 

If you read the posts on the forum by people who actually build these kits it is apparent that a chief complaint is the quality of the woods supplied, especially the substitution of species that don’t live up to marketing hype.  Two principal culprits being mystery woods marketed as  “Mahogany and walnut.”

 

I am in no way endorsing or otherwise promoting them but the exception seems to be kits offered by vanguard and Syren.  Both offer quality woods, sometimes as extra cost options.

 

Roger

Agreed as to Syren and Vanguard from what I've seen and heard. While admittedly a "thread drift" here, I've always been fascinated by how it's possible for anybody to make a profit selling wooden ship model kits.  I have no idea where the relevant data might be found, but it would seem that after one does the research and development to design a kit, then factors in the cost of materials, which aren't particularly high, the difficulty of protecting one's intellectual property rights, the relatively small number of potential buyers, and the lack of retail outlets for what is often an impulse purchase, there really doesn't seem to be a lot of meat left on the bone, considering the work necessary to put a kit into the stream of commerce.

[ERS Rich]

It’s interesting to me that building a wooden ship involves the same operations used in cabinet and furniture making - in miniature.

 

So you have the skill - you just need small tools.  Fortunately small tools can be much cheaper.

 

If you’re serious invest in a Burns table saw.  Like furniture making, it’s about precision but on a small scale.  For me it was difficult and time consuming to cut multiple identical pieces with say a chisel.  Get the full setup, with the sliding table.  

 

The difference between plastic and wooden ship building (both kit and scratch) is the later requires fabrication of practically every wooden piece.  Given the large number of planks, masts, spars, gaffs, etc., etc. the work required is formidable, even on a small project.  It will take weeks or months for a small ship and probably years for a ship with multiple masts.  Most give up….

 

Usually after several months it gets tiresome, so I’ll take a break and build a plastic kit - they seem like a breeze.

 

There is a cache here about scratch building.  When it comes to fabrication, kit and scratch building, to a certain extent, is the same.  A plank is a plank.  It’s cut to length, tapered, spiled and fitted.  The kit saves time, you get all the materials but the wood strip stock and doweling is in the rough.  The new kits have laser cut stock for keel and bulkheads, however these pieces are also rough and require some me shaping.

 

I like kits because I want to build many and all types of ships.
 

Give yourself a break and learn how to do it in steps.  Start with an open boat kit, like a dory to learn planking.  The first time you try planking, it will not look as the second and third time.  So why try to build a man o war the first time?

 

Next is masting and rigging.  Start with a single mast project.  
 

If you want to learn masting and rigging first, go with a solid hull kit.

 

As for scale?  As large as you can, it’s easier on the eyes.

 

Almost forgot, nautical terminology, gotta know it, tough to follow instructions if you don’t.  

 

No right or wrong here, it’s your journey, always ready to help if you need a hand.

 

[helmarsowick]

Wood frigate kits

[Bill97]

Thanks again guys. All this information is very helpful in my decision making. As I mentioned I still have about a year on my plastic Le Soleil Royal which I am thoroughly enjoying. Something I really like about plans kits is the opportunity for color. Wood kits seem to drift more toward wood stain colors. See my recent build update photo below. Who knows I may end up just sticking with plastic kits. 

[Bill97]

ERS Rich I am good with the mast and rigging. I fully rigged my Heller HMS Victory in accordance with Longridge’s book about Nelson’s ships. So I am good in that area and actually look forward to that part of the ship build. It really brings the ship to life. Over the years I have learned a lot of nautical terminology and use it in comments here on MSW but I know I still have a lot to learn for general conversation. 

[mtaylor]

If you haven't done so, pick up a copy of zu Monfeld's Historic Ship Models.  Also there's good nautical dictionaries on line such as Falkner's https://webarchive.nla.gov.au/awa/20110215215247/http://southseas.nla.gov.au/refs/falc/contents.html

 

As for painting.... many builders do go all out on painting their scratch and kit wooden ships.  How much gets painted is up the builder.

[GrandpaPhil]

I paint my wood models just like I would a plastic kit.

[Alex-Ks1]

Its been a while since I was here, I had to put the Niagara in deep storage. I had an eye operation and now I have a cloudy eye , before at least I could see a bit, glasses does not help at all.

   But enough of my miserable health.  I was thinking about doing another PT boat. I did find an 18 ft all aluminum fishing boat, it has the same design as the PT hull. no trailer , I have to find one . but working on something this size is very easy. You use bigger hammers and cutting torches , But I have a TIG / plasma cutter welder . like the other one from about 25 years ago it will be all battery power . with 2 DC motors , 2 rudders, and shaft drive .  Im not good at driving any more , so i have to rely on some friends for this and that. as soon as i can find a cheap trailer, I will get started before I cant see any more . One Last Hooray

 

[Alex-Ks1]

Forgot, I have a good friend that is willing to learn how to run a Bridgeport milling machine to make most of all the parts I need, She will be good at this, women have a greater eye for detail then this poor slob . a lot has to be made by scratch . and the whip antennas will be for all the RC stuff