making ships cannons without a wood lathe

[Benjamin sullivan]

Hello, I am working on scratch building a ship, and I need to make like 42 cannons or something. So I have made them before on a drill press ,but they are a pain to get all the same size and detail is extraordinarily difficult. so is there a good way to make them, I know buying them is an option but 42 cannons can be quite expensive, also the cannons are pretty small they are 25 mm long.

so yea any suggestions welcome.thanks

[Gregory]

I'll try to find a method by one of our members who used rolled up paper.  They looked as good as any I have seen..

 

Someone else may find it before I do..

[grsjax]

Make one and use it as a pattern for a silicone mold to cast the others using a low temperature alloy.

 

[DavidG]

You may have a look on Amati gun barrels, they have 27mm ones pretty cheap

https://store.amatimodel.com/en/small-parts-and-accessories-for-model-making/product-metal-cannon-barrels-mm27-b416427.html

[Jaager]

On a foundational level - a wood lathe is probably a very poor choice of tool for small and detailed tasks.  What it works for is about ten times larger than the job on the table.

A metal lathe is the tool.  The precision and tolerances are in line for this job.

For multiple identical copies an efficient way is to start with a pattern and use a duplicator attachment.

I knowThis is the one I bought to use with my Unimat SL1000.   The real Unimat lathe series is long out of manufacture so a generic attachment was my option:

 

I realize that this is not what you want to read.  It is way beyond your budget.   Still, to avoid the waste of following false trails,  it is better to at least have a map of the terrain at issue.

 

I have been compulsive in making sure that the lack of the proper tool not be an impediment.  It strikes me as a  bit ironic  that should I break my loop and actually take a hull to completion,  I intend to for it to be a ship after the shipwrights are finished but either on the way to the masting and rigging dock or leaving the masting dock and on the way to the armory.   My esthetics see the guns as a distraction - mostly clutter - sort of busy looking  -  my focus is on the swimming body.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Jaager

[allanyed]

3 hours ago, Benjamin sullivan said:

I know buying them is an option but 42 cannons can be quite expensive, also the cannons are pretty small they are 25 mm long.

What ship, year, nationality?  I have not paid more than $0.75 each, including freight, for perfect cannon, everyone exactly the same, done by a 3D printer that takes on small jobs like yours.   I just emailed the appropriate drawings and I had them in a week or so.
Allan 

Edited April 17, 2023 by allanyed

[Benjamin sullivan]

4 hours ago, Gregory said:

I'll try to find a method by one of our members who used rolled up paper.  They looked as good as any I have seen..

 

Someone else may find it before I do..

that is not something I would have thought ,of it will be interesting to see what that looks like.

[Benjamin sullivan]

2 hours ago, Jaager said:

On a foundational level - a wood lathe is probably a very poor choice of tool for small and detailed tasks.  What it works for is about ten times larger than the job on the table.

A metal lathe is the tool.  The precision and tolerances are in line for this job.

For multiple identical copies an efficient way is to start with a pattern and use a duplicator attachment.

I knowThis is the one I bought to use with my Unimat SL1000.   The real Unimat lathe series is long out of manufacture so a generic attachment was my option:

 

I realize that this is not what you want to read.  It is way beyond your budget.   Still, to avoid the waste of following false trails,  it is better to at least have a map of the terrain at issue.

 

I have been compulsive in making sure that the lack of the proper tool not be an impediment.  It strikes me as a  bit ironic  that should I break my loop and actually take a hull to completion,  I intend to for it to be a ship after the shipwrights are finished but either on the way to the masting and rigging dock or leaving the masting dock and on the way to the armory.   My esthetics see the guns as a distraction - mostly clutter - sort of busy looking  -  my focus is on the swimming body.

yea that is a great long term solution for the future, and you can make a whole lot of things on them but yea it is as you correctly said "it is way beyond my budget"

[bruce d]

2 hours ago, Jaager said:

This is the one I bought to use with my Unimat SL1000

Can you give us the source for this? I'm in the middle of making something similar. 

[Benjamin sullivan]

3 hours ago, DavidG said:

You may have a look on Amati gun barrels, they have 27mm ones pretty cheap

https://store.amatimodel.com/en/small-parts-and-accessories-for-model-making/product-metal-cannon-barrels-mm27-b416427.html

oh yea I see what you mean that is much better then what I saw, the cheapest ones on modelers central were like 1.80$ which adds up a lot when you need 42 of them

Edited April 17, 2023 by Benjamin sullivan

[Gregory]

15 minutes ago, Benjamin sullivan said:

that is not something I would have thought ,of it will be interesting to see what that looks like.

 

We have a member, Doris who hasn't been active in a while, but has made some incredible card models.

 

Here is where she shows some detail of her cannon making.

 

Click on the arrow in the upper right of the image above to see her method.

 

Make sure you click through her logs to see some incredible work.

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Gregory

[Benjamin sullivan]

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

What ship, year, nationality?  I have not paid more than $0.75 each, including freight, for perfect cannon, everyone exactly the same, done by a 3D printer that takes on small jobs like yours.   I just emailed the appropriate drawings and I had them in a week or so.
Allan 

So the ship is the fridgate USS Essex 1799 and had 40 32 pounder carronades. it would be a good idea to use a 3d printer actually one of my uncles has one maybe  i should ask him.

[Benjamin sullivan]

13 minutes ago, Gregory said:

 

We have a member, Doris who hasn't been active in a while, but has made some incredible card models.

 

Here is where she shows some detail of her cannon making.

 

Click on the arrow in the upper right of the image above to see her method.

 

Make sure you click through her logs to see some incredible work.

 

thanks I will check it out. jeez no kidding this is amazing, some people are like wizards when it comes to this stuff but out of cards!!!

it's quite amazing

Edited April 17, 2023 by Benjamin sullivan

[Jaager]

20 minutes ago, bruce d said:

Can you give us the source for this?

https://www.pennstateind.com/store/universal-duplicator.html

[allanyed]

10 hours ago, Benjamin sullivan said:

So the ship is the fridgate USS Essex 1799 and had 40 32 pounder carronades. it would be a good idea to use a 3d printer actually one of my uncles has one maybe  i should ask him.

We have a number of drawings in 3D, but for the carronades I only have the 2D at this point.  I am PMing you the 2D drawings as DXF, PNG, and PDF and perhaps some member has already done them in 3D so you can get them printed.   I am assuming yours is a kit from Model Shipways at 1:76 scale.  If that is the scale, the overall barrel length should be 20mm, not 25mm for a 32 pounder.  I scaled the original drawing and sending to you on the PM.

 

For the actual 3Dprinting I have had samples done in various materials, but resin works far better than anything else that was tried.    

 

Allan

[Benjamin sullivan]

2 hours ago, allanyed said:

We have a number of drawings in 3D, but for the carronades I only have the 2D at this point.  I am PMing you the 2D drawings as DXF, PNG, and PDF and perhaps some member has already done them in 3D so you can get them printed.   I am assuming yours is a kit from Model Shipways at 1:76 scale.  If that is the scale, the overall barrel length should be 20mm, not 25mm for a 32 pounder.  I scaled the original drawing and sending to you on the PM.

 

For the actual 3Dprinting I have had samples done in various materials, but resin works far better than anything else that was tried.    

 

Allan

thanks for the drawings, so the only thing I have to work with are plans and they are the AEROPICCOLA plans. as far as cannons go you would know better then I this is what they look like on the plans that I have they seen to be cannons which is weird. Is it the carronades that like swivel ? and the cannons that look like cannons? if you know what I mean  so second picture is a carronade and the third is a cannon?

Edited April 18, 2023 by Benjamin sullivan

[Benjamin sullivan]

18 hours ago, grsjax said:

Make one and use it as a pattern for a silicone mold to cast the others using a low temperature alloy.

 

yea that could work, only problem is that I have never cast metal before. a blow torch could probably be used to melt it but I don't have one.

[thibaultron]

According the Wikipedia she carried

• Upper deck: 26 × 18-pounder guns
• Quarter Deck: 12 × 32-pounder carronades
• Forecastle: 2 × 9-pounder guns + 2 × 32-pounder carronades
• So you need a mix of cannons
• There is an Anatomy Of the Ship book on her. If you want to go for a scratch build, you might want to get it.

https://www.amazon.com/32-Gun-Frigate-Essex-Anatomy-Ship/dp/0961502169

 

[Benjamin sullivan]

13 minutes ago, thibaultron said:

According the Wikipedia she carried

• Upper deck: 26 × 18-pounder guns
• Quarter Deck: 12 × 32-pounder carronades
• Forecastle: 2 × 9-pounder guns + 2 × 32-pounder carronades
• So you need a mix of cannons
• There is an Anatomy Of the Ship book on her. If you want to go for a scratch build, you might want to get it.

https://www.amazon.com/32-Gun-Frigate-Essex-Anatomy-Ship/dp/0961502169

 

thanks, how much does the different kinds of cannons matter on a model ship is it even notable?. I have only ever made them the same size (or as much as you can with a drill press)  

[Lieste]

USF Essex was built as a 12pdr frigate - 26, rather short 12pdrs (shorter than the equivalent English pattern 'short' naval gun, and similar to the English iron field/siege gun of that calibre). Her initial galliards armament would have been  ~ 6-10 6pdr guns (also rather short), but before 1800 these had been augmented and entirely replaced by 16 24pdr carronades.

By the time of her Pacific cruise and subsequent capture by Phoebe and Cherub, she had been rebuilt with carronades as her primary armament - 26 ordnance on the upper deck and 20 on the spardeck, of which 40 were 32pdr carronades and 6 12 pdr were retained (2 on the upper deck and 4 on the galliards as far as I can tell).

She was patched up in Chile and then sailed to England in this condition, and following refitting served out her life as an unrated 22 gun troopship (though I don't know what, if any, campaigns she served in) then prison hulk. She was established as a standard 36 gun frigate nominally, but was never armed with the 18pdr guns and 32pdr carronades (plus by then largely optional 9pdr chase guns) as she was considered rather too small and cramped to make a good frigate, especially given the subsequent explosion in size of the new 24pdr and 32pdr frigates coming on line in the wake of the 1812 war and it's lessons, and the parallel developments in France and America.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Lieste

[uss frolick]

I you're doing Essex in 1/4 inch scale, then Blue Jacket makes a perfect 32-pounder carronade and slide carriage in that scale. It is their largest carronade, but it is not specifically called a 1/4 inch gun. Both are made from a pewter alloy.

 

its on this page:

 

https://www.bluejacketinc.com/buckets-cannons-old-style-dahlgren-parrott-brooke-falconets-carronades-cannon-carriages-2/

 

 

 

 

[allanyed]

Benjamin,

I PM'd you 32 pounder carronade drawings and as you now know, they are totally inappropriate except for the times mentioned above.  If you are going to go with long guns, I can email you 3D drawings of long guns at your scale that are more appropriate in pattern.  They will be Armstrong Frederick pattern, but at your scale will certainly be closer in looks than having all Carronades like those built at Carron.

20 hours ago, Benjamin sullivan said:

how much does the different kinds of cannons matter on a model ship is it even notable?

It matters a lot if YOU want the model to look like the ship did.  If you don't care, so be it, it is your model after all.   If you PM me what calibers (shot weight such as 9 pounders, 12pounders, etc.)  I will send the 3D drawings for various lengths of each which you can email to a printer.  If you need a printer in the US I can also email you a contact that has done cannon for me in the past.  I have not had any made in over a year, but I am pretty sure he is still doing this.  

 

Allan

Edited April 19, 2023 by allanyed

[Lieste]

The 12pdr specified for Constitution in the 1790s were 6ft 8.7" (Breech ring to muzzle face, for a gross length of 18.2 calibres (common to the other patterns (including the 24pdr (8.5ft) noted for this era, except the 18pdr, which was 18.9 (8ft)). This latter is the same length as the shortest 18pdr British naval pattern, a and the 12pdr is a very little shorter than the 32pdr British (18.5 cals, 9.5ft), and not as long as the other British patterns (which in Frigate pattern smaller bore guns reach a little over 20 calibres, and much longer in the longest patterns of small guns).

I'd scale from the British 32pdr to meet the length/width rather than use a 12pdr gun, unless you want to go to the trouble of looking up the US moulding pattern and drafting the right model.
When scaling for overall length allow 2 calibres for the breech face and button on top of the noted length.

[Benjamin sullivan]

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

Benjamin,

I PM'd you 32 pounder carronade drawings and as you now know, they are totally inappropriate except for the times mentioned above.  If you are going to go with long guns, I can email you 3D drawings of long guns at your scale that are more appropriate in pattern.  They will be Armstrong Frederick pattern, but at your scale will certainly be closer in looks than having all Carronades like those built at Carron.

It matters a lot if YOU want the model to look like the ship did.  If you don't care, so be it, it is your model after all.   PM me what calibers (shot weight such as 9 pounders, 12pounders, etc.) I will send the 3D drawings for various lengths of each which you can email to a printer.  If you need a printer in the US I can also email you a contact that has done cannon for me in the past.  I have not had any made in over a year, but I am pretty sure he is still doing this.  

 

Allan

I don't know, honestly i'm just 15, cannon sizes and 3d printing patterns are way out of my comfort zone. This is my first time making cannons to scale so I will probably go with all the same size cannons. I do like the look of long cannons of ships tho.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Benjamin sullivan

[Benjamin sullivan]

36 minutes ago, Lieste said:

The 12pdr specified for Constitution in the 1790s were 6ft 8.7" (Breech ring to muzzle face, for a gross length of 18.2 calibres (common to the other patterns (including the 24pdr (8.5ft) noted for this era, except the 18pdr, which was 18.9 (8ft)). This latter is the same length as the shortest 18pdr British naval pattern, a and the 12pdr is a very little shorter than the 32pdr British (18.5 cals, 9.5ft), and not as long as the other British patterns (which in Frigate pattern smaller bore guns reach a little over 20 calibres, and much longer in the longest patterns of small guns).

I'd scale from the British 32pdr to meet the length/width rather than use a 12pdr gun, unless you want to go to the trouble of looking up the US moulding pattern and drafting the right model.
When scaling for overall length allow 2 calibres for the breech face and button on top of the noted length.

I am sorry but I am confused. so correct me if i'm wrong but pdr means the weight of the projectetil that is being shot right ?

[Benjamin sullivan]

1 hour ago, uss frolick said:

I you're doing Essex in 1/4 inch scale, then Blue Jacket makes a perfect 32-pounder carronade and slide carriage in that scale. It is their largest carronade, but it is not specifically called a 1/4 inch gun. Both are made from a pewter alloy.

 

its on this page:

 

https://www.bluejacketinc.com/buckets-cannons-old-style-dahlgren-parrott-brooke-falconets-carronades-cannon-carriages-2/

 

 

 

 

I actually do not know what the scale is but I am using the AEROPICCOLA plans but they do not say the scale on them.

[Gregory]

From what I can Google, scale may be 1:50 .

 

P.S.

 

It appears they made a kit that was 1:50.  Can't be sure if your plans are 1:1 from the kit..

Edited April 18, 2023 by Gregory

[Lieste]

39 minutes ago, Benjamin sullivan said:

I am sorry but I am confused. so correct me if i'm wrong but pdr means the weight of the projectetil that is being shot right ?

Yes, but if you have two patterns of ordnance, both 8.5ft long  -  then a 24pdr will look short and squat if compared to a rather narrower and more elegant 6pdr would. The proportions of a shorter gun in each bore look more like the heavier guns than to the longest pattern of the smaller size. If you are scaling from an existing 3d model (though you indicate you may not be doing this), then scaling a heavier pattern to a smaller size might give a better result than using a too-long gun of the correct bore.

The 12pdr short US pattern of the 1790s is rather closer to the proportion of a 32pdr Armstrong than a 12pdr Armstrong (iron, naval) of any pattern actually built would be, once reduced in proportion of 4.623:6.41(the bore of the 12pdr:32pdr)

[Benjamin sullivan]

5 minutes ago, Lieste said:

Yes, but if you have two patterns of ordnance, both 8.5ft long  -  then a 24pdr will look short and squat if compared to a rather narrower and more elegant 6pdr would. The proportions of a shorter gun in each bore look more like the heavier guns than to the longest pattern of the smaller size. If you are scaling from an existing 3d model (though you indicate you may not be doing this), then scaling a heavier pattern to a smaller size might give a better result than using a too-long gun of the correct bore.

The 12pdr short US pattern of the 1790s is rather closer to the proportion of a 32pdr Armstrong than a 12pdr Armstrong (iron, naval) of any pattern actually built would be, once reduced in proportion of 4.623:6.41(the bore of the 12pdr:32pdr)

ok I think I understand,  so when you say 3d model do you mean like a finished model somebody made or a 3d rendering of a model?

[uss frolick]

The old AEROPICCOLA kit was 1/70 scale.