Sir Lancelot 1865 by Luis Felipe - FINISHED - 1:100 - Tea Clipper

[ClipperFan]

23 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Rich, wonderful contributions to this thread. 
 

Love the painting and images…….not to mention the models. 
How you doing these days? Mike has asked about you.  
 

Rob

Hi Rob,

I'm glad you enjoyed those. I really hope Luis liked them too. He's doing a hell of a job on one of the most beautiful Scottish tea clippers. I must be having more email issues again. I haven't seen communications from either Mike or you in a while now. I'm deep into writing the second Glory of the Seas article draft which is already even longer than the first because there's just so many details to cover to do the topic full justice. I'll send you a pm with my wife's email address to reopen communications. We just returned from a second hotel stay for 3 days while asbestos was removed from our kitchen. Now we have to move the stuff out of our son's bedroom, back to the kitchen, so that both rooms can have new floors installed. Meanwhile July 1st my son and I were t-boned by a guy who was speeding, made an illegal right pass, violated a right turn only signal, ran a red-light and smashed into us. Fortunately, other than scrapes and bruises, we're both fine. We'll probably seek therapy though, per the advice of an attorney. Meanwhile, my ultra-rare 1997 Cougar XR-7 30th Anniversary Edition in mint-condition which took 4 years to find, and I just registered March 20th is in real serious shape. Our family keeps asking "What hall of mirrors did we shatter?" 

Meanwhile, I want to return this thread to Luis Felipe and his impressive build.

[ClipperFan]

Luis, 

This stunning painting of "Clipper ship Sir Lancelot passing South Foreland" by Dutch Maritime Artist, Maarten Platje won the Dereck Gardner Award in 2018 at the 73rd Annual Exhibition of the Royal Society of Marine Artists. Here's a detailed description of this beautiful work: 

 "The Clippership Sir Lancelot passes Dover Strait on an outbound voyage. The westerly breeze blows from the west and makes the vessel roll. The crew is making sail and the ship is gaining speed. The White Cliffs of Dover can be seen in the distance, with the lighthouse of South Foreland as a landmark at the right."

[Luis Felipe]

Many thanks for your replies and contributions, what a wonderful group of ship modelers.

In fact, Mr. Donald McNarry is a “Master” and the 2 models of Sir Lancelot that he built are truly masterpieces. Unfortunately, I implement some early decisions back in 2001 about my model what results in white bulkheads no monkey rail. Later when I found the beautiful “pea green” used by Mr. MacNarry was too late.

By chance I believe that the decision about the bulkheads was OK.

 

[Luis Felipe]

In relation to the deck plan, there are also variations, At that time I decided to follow the Sir Lancelot Deck Plan of David R. Mc Gregor (1969), what I believe proves right and coincides with the Mr. McNarry choice: 

 

[Luis Felipe]

Another interesting fact is that Sir Lancelot was initially fitted with Iron Masts but was completely dismasted in its second voyage in Dec 13, 1866. Quoting Mr. Mc Greggor “She was hastily re-rigged in six weeks with a set of Oregon pine masts with proven satisfactory”. The incident is very well described in the Basil Lubbock book the China Clippers.

So, modelling decisions again, I decided to use wood for all the masts and maintain the single roller-reefing topsail with Cunningham´s patent on the mizen as shown on the Dutton´s  lithograph.

[Luis Felipe]

Some other reference pictures of a 1947 model of Sir Lancelot  from the WEB and an amazing model of its sister ship ARIEL  that may be interesting:

 

[Luis Felipe]

Hi, updated pictures, almost done! 

[LEGION 12]

Wow !

[Rick310]

Nice!!!!

Rick

[rwiederrich]

Just wonderful.......

 

Rob

[GrandpaPhil]

Very nice!

[shipman]

Awesome model, thanks for sharing.

The coppering looks just like the bottom of the Cutty Sark during the early '80's, before the fire episode.

Double sided tape and spray adhesives have no place on a model ship.

[rwiederrich]

23 hours ago, shipman said:

Double sided tape and spray adhesives have no place on a model ship.

Im not even sure I know how to respond to that…..since no modeler actually uses the actual material used to build the real ship. You use whatever material gets the job done.
 

Rob 

[Luis Felipe]

Thanks for watching and for your motivating comments. Now the case, case size is 100x39x64cms, this is 39"x15"x25". Wood is some variety of Acacia, brittle but nice color and grain. The plan is use standard glass adding after a layer of UV Protection film.

Also it will include a brief review and a couple of images of Sir Lancelot "on the trade".

 

 

 

[Luis Felipe]

Hi, finally Sir Lancelot goes into its glass display, I must then declared the model "Finished".

 

[Luis Felipe]

Now I would like your advice to start the research for my next project, I would like to build an American clipper, there are several options:

Flying Cloud: Very well documented, full set of plans available, appealing ( I read Flying Cloud: The True Story of America's Most Famous Clipper Ship and the Woman Who Guided Her See more) and its a very good history.

Sovereign of the seas, I got the E. Armitage McCann book "How to make a Clipper Ship Model" documentation is basic, will require much more research.

Young America, it seems that its fully documented in three books   Modeling the Extreme Clipper YOUNG AMERICA 1853 Volume I, II and III by Edward Tosti, sounds interesting.

Flying Fish, I got the Instruction book from BEN LANFORD, may be that I also can get a set of plans.  

 

What do you Think fellow clipper fans?

 

 

[rwiederrich]

On 9/16/2023 at 3:44 PM, Luis Felipe said:

Now I would like your advice to start the research for my next project, I would like to build an American clipper, there are several options:

Flying Cloud: Very well documented, full set of plans available, appealing ( I read Flying Cloud: The True Story of America's Most Famous Clipper Ship and the Woman Who Guided Her See more) and its a very good history.

Sovereign of the seas, I got the E. Armitage McCann book "How to make a Clipper Ship Model" documentation is basic, will require much more research.

Young America, it seems that its fully documented in three books   Modeling the Extreme Clipper YOUNG AMERICA 1853 Volume I, II and III by Edward Tosti, sounds interesting.

Flying Fish, I got the Instruction book from BEN LANFORD, may be that I also can get a set of plans.  

 

What do you Think fellow clipper fans?

 

 

You did a fantastic job...for sure.  I am very impressed.   I am further excited that you want to continue with your clipper theme and want to build an American clipper.  Your choice of Sir Lancelot was very exciting to me, because few people actually build a model of less modeled clippers.

 

My own personal challenge was to build a clipper that rarely gets modeled.  These builds requite great research on the part of the builder.   I would like to see something other then the *Typical* fair of clippers.  Something like the Big ships..... like the Games Baines...or possibly the Comet,  Snow Squall or Davy Crocket.

 

Sucha request will require a great enthusiasm on your part.  You did ask what I thought.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

On 9/16/2023 at 6:44 PM, Luis Felipe said:

Now I would like your advice to start the research for my next project, I would like to build an American clipper, there are several options:

Flying Cloud: Very well documented, full set of plans available, appealing ( I read Flying Cloud: The True Story of America's Most Famous Clipper Ship and the Woman Who Guided Her See more) and its a very good history.

Sovereign of the seas, I got the E. Armitage McCann book "How to make a Clipper Ship Model" documentation is basic, will require much more research.

Young America, it seems that its fully documented in three books   Modeling the Extreme Clipper YOUNG AMERICA 1853 Volume I, II and III by Edward Tosti, sounds interesting.

Flying Fish, I got the Instruction book from BEN LANFORD, may be that I also can get a set of plans.  

 

What do you Think fellow clipper fans?

 

 

Hi Luis,

As the famous saying goes "It ain't necessarily so." By that, I mean the three McKay clippers you mention are not yet accurately modeled. You can check in with Rob Wiederrich or Vladimir Wairora. They will both vouch for my steadfast dedication to accuracy. If your intent is to build an accurate American clipper ship, your best bet is to follow Ed Tosti's phenomenal Young America build. I personally favor Donald McKay's clippers, which I consider more beautiful. Lars Bruzelius has compiled exacting detailed descriptions of Stag Hound, Flying Cloud, Flying Fish, Sovereign of the Seas, James Baines, Champion of the Seas, Lightning and Donald McKay as well as many others. Here's the challenge I've seen with contemporary McKay clipper models. Until Rob's Glory of the Seas build, McKay's unique naval hood, cutwater bow structure hasn't been correctly reproduced. Only the bare stem is depicted on every Flying Cloud, Flying Fish, Sovereign of the Seas and even Lightning models. For this, the culprit is actually Donald McKay himself! He so jealously guarded his nautical secrets that they've been lost to history. For years, I've been researching the actual appearance of these marvelous vessels and they're even more lovely than contemporary models reveal. 

[Luis Felipe]

Hi, many thanks for your advice, Davy Crocket is interesting, at first browse there is very few to use, a plan with the hull lines, a couple of low resolution model photos and that is, no deck plans no sails plan to be used as references. James Baines and Comet are listed on the William L. Crothers "The American-Built Clipper Ship",  I found also few references for Snow Squall.

By the other hand is Young America, and I agree is Ed. Tosti phenomenal achievement and an excellent choice for accuracy.

I believe that you have provide me a good starting point, I will continue looking on this ships to see what I can find.

Thanks again. 

     

[Roger Pellett]

Sources:

 

It sounds like you already have Crothers’ excellent book.

 

if you have not already done so, I would buy a hard copy of Chapelle’s Search for Speed Under Sail.  It is packed full of Clipper Ship drawings that are available from the Smithsonian Institution.  A lengthy appendix includes large scale lines drawings and detailed written descriptions of Clippers.  These are direct copies of William Griffiths’ contemporary  Monthly Nautical Magazine.

 

Part’s of Snow Squall’s hull has been recovered and documented in an interesting book titled Snow Squall: The Last American Clipper.  The book includes lines and scantlings information for the first 18 Frames (35 feet).  Other that the book contains little helpful to construct a model.

 

In the 1884 a Henry Hall conducted a survey of the American Shipbuilding industry.  His survey was published in a book titled Report On the Ship-Building Industry of the United States.  Not an essential source but it does contain small scale copies of Clipper Ships.  Inexpensive reprints are available.

 

W!illiam H Webb’s portfolio of plans for Wooden Ships.  This was reprinted c1990 in the Nautical Research Journal.  Downloads of old articles are inexpensive.  Contact the NRG office.

 

Unlike drawings for Royal Navy warships, true originals are probably not available for these clippers, and in some cases lines drawings may have never existed as many American shipwrights designed using half models throughout the Nineteenth Century.  To build the ship, measurements from the model were laid out full size and sometimes changed on the mold loft floor.  This means that whatever drawing you choose to use is a copy and reinterpretation of design information made by someone.  In many cases the information for recent drawings eg, Chapelle, came from Griffith’s Nautical Monthly Magazine.  This might be the reason for the lack of the “Naval Hood” shown  on McKay vessels as Griffiths’ magazine drawings rarely show this type of details.  In other cases, Chapelle might have beset his drawings based on information taken from a half Model in the Smithsonian’s collection. It is well known that this was a source for some of his work.  For these reason’s Chapelle’s The National Watercraft Collection describing the huge number of the Smithsonian’s models is a useful reference.

 

Roger

[Luis Felipe]

Hi, thanks again, just order the Chapelle´s books, will arrive first or second week of Oct. Will see what I can find on the NRG. Saludos from Chile, LFG. 

[ClipperFan]

@Luis Felipe if knowing that you have accurate sources for a large American clipper is one of your goals, you probably can't do better than our recent Donald McKay medium clipper Glory of the Seas reconstruction. First, you'll have the benefit of actually seeing literally dozens of ultra rare images of the actual vessel herself, courtesy of author Michael Mjelde who has spent a lifetime researching her and has published three in-depth books on her long successful career. You'll also have the benefit of reading build logs of @rwiederrichwho's spent the last 14 years exhaustively researching and building her in 1:96th scale so accurately that Mr. Mjelde has pronounced she's the most accurate model ever constructed of her. Besides Rob there's also @Vladimir_Wairoa who's currently nearing completion of his monster 1:72nd scale build of her as originally launched. In addition, the Winter Nautical Research Journal has the 1st of two articles on this remarkable effort (I'm writing the 2nd article right now). Finally Vladimir has created both scale bulkheads to make it easier to begin the initial build. It would be fascinating to see a big California clipper in comparison to the Scottish composite tea clipper.

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

Very nice build Luis. 

wish you luck whatever ship you consider to pick, just one advice,  it is easier to think it out before start if ship is doable/ or at least enough researched by measures  from body to rig...

and it isvVery interesting read throughout thread. Thank you all. 

Vlad 

[ClipperFan]

@Vladimir_Wairoa as the old carpenter's adge goes "measure twice, cut once!" However, after our exhausive dig into virtually every nook and cranny of Glory of the Seas I'm quite assured that we have developed enough solid comprehension to more accurately reconstruct many more of Donald McKay's fascinating clippers. Another big American vessel which is well documented is the Maine built clipper Red Jacket which has also been issued as a Bluejacket kit. I have the gorgeous book which has many detailed fold-out plans.

Edited September 20, 2023 by ClipperFan
grammar correction

[ClipperFan]

and  @Luis Felipe A few years ago I bought a new copy of this book directly from Rockland Historical Society, Rockland Public Library, 80 Union Street, Rockland, ME 04841 USA email: library@rocklandmaine.gov. From best memory, my brand new book cost about $68.00 US, including postage. That will be your biggest challenge coming from the USA to Chile. If you're interested, I can see if it's possible to scan some of the plans.

[Roger Pellett]

Clipper Fan:

 

Looking through usual sources including Mjelde’s book, I have been unable to find any hull lines for Glory of the Seas or reference to them.  By hull lines, I am referring to the Naval architect’s drawing that depicts the vessel’s underwater shape.  In fact, Mjelde is confusing on this point. He says that McKay carved a model of a 187 ft vessel that was changed on the mould loft floor to become a 250 ft vessel.  A picture in the book shows what Mjelde purports to be the “McKay’s original builders model” for Glory but doesn’t clarify if this is for the 187ft or the 250 ft ship.  If this is the correct model has someone visited the Mariners Museum to take off the lines?

 

I enjoyed your recent article in the Journal but wondered how an accurate model could be built without a lines drawing.

 

Roger

 

 

[Luis Felipe]

Many thanks for your recommendations and support. I will start studying the material that I already have plus the books that will arrive soon. Anyway, this is not a decision that will be taken in the short term, I need to recover the enthusiasm after the last "pandemic" sprint that was required to complete Sir Lancelot". In relation to the Stephen D. Hopkins book, Red Jacket let me see if I can find a used copy somewhere, I really like to go over these books, help me to dream about being on board this magnificent hand-made machines that combine 0 emissions with outstanding beauty.     

[ClipperFan]

11 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

Clipper Fan:

 

Looking through usual sources including Mjelde’s book, I have been unable to find any hull lines for Glory of the Seas or reference to them.  By hull lines, I am referring to the Naval architect’s drawing that depicts the vessel’s underwater shape.  In fact, Mjelde is confusing on this point. He says that McKay carved a model of a 187 ft vessel that was changed on the mould loft floor to become a 250 ft vessel.  A picture in the book shows what Mjelde purports to be the “McKay’s original builders model” for Glory but doesn’t clarify if this is for the 187ft or the 250 ft ship.  If this is the correct model has someone visited the Mariners Museum to take off the lines?

 

I enjoyed your recent article in the Journal but wondered how an accurate model could be built without a lines drawing.

 

Roger

 

 

Roger,

 It's hard to believe it but the reality is that Rob Wiederrich became fascinated with recreating Donald McKay's last, longest lived medium clipper Glory of the Seas 14 years ago when he greatly modified a Revell 1:96th scale tea clipper Cutty Sark to represent her. At about the same time, without having any communication whatsoever with Rob, I began my own investigation of Glory's true hull appearance. Back then, there was almost no full broadside visual evidence of her lines. However, there was an entire description of her dimensions, published by Michael Mjelde in his first book. It was an article by Duncan McLean, publicist for the Boston Daily Atlas. His source was obviously McKay's shipyard itself. Utilizing those exact specifications I spent months painstakenly sketching her precise dimensions at 1:96 scale. I taped together 3 14" × 17" sheets of paper to do this. Just like Rob's model, my sketch is 33" taffrail to knightheads and an additional 7" for her bowsprit and jibboom. Our reconstruction is far more accurate than any previous attempt, thanks in large measure to Michael Mjelde's priceless contributions of many ultra-rare images not seen in even his publications. Vladimir contributed his CGI talents, literally creating a set of bulkheads similar to and inspired by the basics of the widely popular Bluejacket extreme clipper Flying Fish. After personally seeing Rob's model, author Michael Mjelde said it's the most accurate replica he's ever seen. Still, Michael is so inspired by our combined research efforts that he's actually learning CGI himself to further pursue Glory's accurate underwater bow. Personally, after my own years of living with her hull configuration, I suspect we'll discover that her prow is even sleeker than we've arrived at so far. 

[ClipperFan]

@Luis Felipe Back to your recently completed lovely model, I just came across this beautiful piece of art in Facebook titled "Sir Lancelot Shortening Down" by Roger Desoutter RSMA. Here's a link to the description:

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02dWv83n5evognUKG1xxpmHzshohc47V72pb2TbFdSr2RVuJXNX83acz38xrVK2hZHl&id=100085155560377&mibextid=9R9pXO

[Tony Hunt]

Lots of great advice above, so many good choices. RED JACKET was a very handsome ship, there is a good article on a model of her in Model Shipwright magazine somewhere.  COMET is also a great suggestion, I haven't seen a model of her (although I'm sure there is one). Another beauty is WILD PIGEON, plans are in Chapelle's book.