mini table saw

[Bob Cleek]

47 minutes ago, wefalck said:

The Byrnes saw has one big detriment - it's bloody expensive once it arrives over here in the EU  😬

I keep hearing this and don't doubt it. The costs for shipping and, I suppose, customs duties, apparently double the price. There's got to be a "work-around" for this somehow. Perhaps hire a "courier" to bring it in by plane like is done with other items sometimes. As I understand it, there are those who regularly must travel from the U.S. to Europe for work and are able to courier small packages on an individual basis for a small fee. I'd expect any of the Byrnes machines would qualify as "carry on" size luggage and if it had been "used" in the U.S. after purchase or purchased "used" in the U.S. to begin with, perhaps that would significantly reduce, or even eliminate the customs duties. I have no way of knowing and my international "import-export" business experience is limited to how many bottles of duty-free liquor I can bring home at one time, but it's just a thought. Perhaps somebody else can flesh it out.

 

[wefalck]

Well, unfortunately, the EU has clamped down on such things more strictly over the past few years. I did carry Sherline equipment from the US in my checked-in luggage, but at that time I was travelling on a UN Laissez Passer 😁.  Also, there were special exemptions from import duties, when we could assure that these were 'attachments' that belonged to or complemented existing equipment you already had. The latter would also apply, when you had things imported by mail. My status has changed since and all the import duties would hit me hard ... There is also a maximum value of goods you can bring with you from outside the EU duty-free. I think it is around 300€. Above that you have to declare the items to customs and if they catch you, when you don't, the fines are hefty. Not worth the risk.

[Bob Cleek]

6 hours ago, wefalck said:

There is also a maximum value of goods you can bring with you from outside the EU duty-free.

That might not be an unreasonable price for a used Byrnes table saw.  

[NoelSmith]

This thread has made really interesting reading about the Unimats and the Byrnes table saws.

Got me to thinking that maybe some small precision engineering company here in the UK could make the Byrnes table saws under licence for the EU market.

The nearest thing to compare to a Byrnes table saw in the EU  look like the ones that Proxxon make in Germany.

 

As for my little Unimat 4, fortunately it does not get heavily used so hopefully I will be able to use it as long as I can see for the foreseeable future. Just hope the motor does not pack up on it as the little machine is basically quite mechanically sound. Accessories wise, judging by what I have read in this thread, I am glad that I have bought the ones I need whilst the availability was better.

Unfortunately the end of an era for the little Unimats I guess now that replacement parts are becoming an issue. Long may my little machine keep going.,............At least for the time being!

Edited October 28, 2023 by NoelSmith

[wefalck]

There used to be a guy in Germany, who made small batches of very solid and precise small table saws, but as always, he was a pensioner and at some stage had to give up this business. The market is small and the costs are high, so one can really do this only, when margins can be small because you have other income

[Canute]

Might that have been Preco? I remember ads, but none of the details.

[wefalck]

No, the saw were only sold through 'connections' it seems. I forgot the name of the guy.

Edited October 28, 2023 by wefalck

[tom q vaxy]

so .... if Byrnes fails to open, take it off the table for now, is there a #2 saw that will perform? not perfectly, universal opinion points to the seemingly unobtainium for the immediate, but adequate no one will have angina over using it?

 

is Proxon or Micro-Mark acceptable if talked about in hushed voices? i find it hard to believe the future of the hobby clings on one man's hiatus.

[davyboy]

20 minutes ago, tom q vaxy said:

so .... if Byrnes fails to open, take it off the table for now, is there a #2 saw that will perform? not perfectly, universal opinion points to the seemingly unobtainium for the immediate, but adequate no one will have angina over using it?

 

is Proxon or Micro-Mark acceptable if talked about in hushed voices? i find it hard to believe the future of the hobby clings on one man's hiatus.

Hi,

 

There is nothing wrong with the Proxxon FET saw whatsoever. I have had one for several years which does excellent work with no problems,I really like the fact you can tilt the blade for angled cuts. Something which the Byrnes saw cannot do as far as I´m aware. I can´t speak for Micro Mark,however I´ve heard their saw may be a Chinese made copy of the Proxxon saw. I´m fairly certain´that Mr Byrnes business will be open again soon. Patience is a virtue 

 

Dave 

 

[Gregory]

I had the Microlux/Micromark saw before I acquired the FET , and I'm pretty sure the Proxxon wasn't available at the time, over 20 years ago. 

I would suspect that Proxxon looked at the Microlux and refined it a bit.  They may have even had some kind of collaboration going on.

 

P.S.

Just saw somewhere that the Proxxon and Microlux are made in the same factory in Japan,  so I believe they probably share some components. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Gregory

[tom q vaxy]

7 hours ago, Gregory said:

I had the Microlux/Micromark saw before I acquired the FET , and I'm pretty sure the Proxxon wasn't available at the time, over 20 years ago. 

I would suspect that Proxxon looked at the Microlux and refined it a bit.  They may have even had some kind of collaboration going on.

 

P.S.

Just saw somewhere that the Proxxon and Microlux are made in the same factory in Japan,  so I believe they probably share some components. 

so you found them both a fairly acceptable tool?

[Gregory]

1 hour ago, tom q vaxy said:

so you found them both a fairly acceptable tool?

Very much so.  

The Proxxon has a  micrometer style fence adjustment that makes it superior to the MicroLux in that respect.  A plus for the MicroLux is the variable speed, but I prefer using

the Proxxon.

If you get either one of them you will want to get this arbor adapter so you can use a lot of 3rd party blades with1/2" arbor.

The Proxxon and Microlux blades are way over priced.

 

I get my blades at Malco Saw Company.  There are also compatible blades on Amazon with the 1/2" arbor.

 

If you need more info just ask.

[GGibson]

On 8/16/2023 at 3:03 PM, Bob Cleek said:

...If I were you, which I'm not, I'd save my money until I could afford to buy a Byrnes Model Machines table saw... They are presently on vacation but are supposed to return the end of this month.

I have sent Jim & Donna an email/message on their website, anxiously waiting for them to return from their time off.  👍👍

[RolBerg]

On 10/23/2023 at 9:16 PM, NoelSmith said:

The German company Proxxon make small table saws and other model makers power tools.

They might be worth a look. 

I don't know what torque the motors generate on Proxxon machines though but they look to be decent bits of kit from what I can see.

The little Unimat Lathes have a small table sawing attachment as an accessory that also might be worth a look too.

They have got a lot of complaints for the poor quality of their motor on the circular table saw (KS 230).

[bruce d]

9 hours ago, RolBerg said:

They have got a lot of complaints for the poor quality of their motor on the circular table saw (KS 230).

It's a lightweight motor and easy to overload.  But it's also easy and cheap to replace the motor. 

The Proxxon saws are good tools for their intended jobs.  I sold mine when I got a Byrnes and, as has been said before, the Byrnes is Number 1 but the Proxxon is pretty good. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by bruce d

[wefalck]

It is essentially one of those ubiquitous 90W sewing machine motors.

[Gregory]

8 hours ago, RolBerg said:

They have got a lot of complaints for the poor quality of their motor on the circular table saw (KS 230).

That is a very low end machine..  85 watts.

It burns up because people try to get off cheap then use it for jobs it is not designed for. 

[bricklayer]

If you buy cheap then you`ll buy twice.

 

As a beginner I had bought the tiny toy saw KS 230. According to it`s specs it was sufficient to me.

But the surface-milled aluminium table is as flat as the plastic cabinet is. It`s convex. So the fence doesn`t lie tight on the table on it`s entire length.

Towards it`s free end the fence lifts and there`s a gap between table and fence. Thin stock slides underneath the fence.

The fence doesn`t run parallel to the blade. I didn`t find away to adjust it.

The motor`s torque is poor. The 50 mm blade has 6 to 8 mm clearance but the saw does hardly cut 3 mm birch ply.

 

After having gained some experience I bought the FET. This tool deserves the name circular table saw.

It cuts 20 mm fir and 12 mm beech and doesn`t complain about the job.

The fence is rigid, parallel to the blade and tight to the table.

The saw is versatile. It can be used for various applications

The FET cuts voluntarily rather than being obliged to do so.

 

My conclusion: If you can`t afford a + 300 € saw instantly, then better save your money until you can afford it.

Cheap tools work properly? That`s wishful thinking. Though there`s exceptions from the rule.

 

Michael

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RolBerg]

14 hours ago, bruce d said:

It's a lightweight motor and easy to overload.  But it's also easy and cheap to replace the motor. 

The Proxxon saws are good tools for their intended jobs.  I sold mine when I got a Byrnes and, as has been said before, the Byrnes is Number 1 but the Proxxon is pretty good. 

70 euro + shipping is not what i would call cheap.

[bruce d]

1 hour ago, RolBerg said:

70 euro + shipping is not what i would call cheap.

Agreed, that's not cheap and I suppose that is the price in the Proxxon catalogue.  However,  replacements are on ebay for €36 and as Wefalk pointed out it is basically a sewing machine motor: they are even cheaper. 

The FET is a serious saw for modelling and the KS230 is a lower spec tool for an entirely different budget.  

[wefalck]

At the time, when the PROXXON KS230 was put onto the market (around 30 years ago), there was basically no alternative, at least on the European market. And still, there are not many alternatives for small table-top saws, other than the really cheaply made ones from the Far East. The PROXXON FET and similar ones are much bigger in size and price - the next one up would be small, but full-size circular saws I suppose.

 

The KS230 was never intended to mill lumber, I suppose, but to allow (not so serious) modellers to cut pieces from softer woods. Of course, it can't cope with 5 mm oder more of hardwood.

 

I fully agree, that its main weaknesses includes the rather wobbly fence that is only fixed at the front. Some 25+ years ago, when I bought my KS230, I installed an additional fence, that could be fixed at the back as well. This is not so easy, as the body of the saw does not allow access to the full length of the back edge of the table, which I consider a design shortcome.

 

The other weakness is the width of the saw-slot that is too wide (to accomodate their carbide studded saw-blades). I actually, put a thin sheet of aluminium over the table with a zero-clearance slot for their thinnest blade.

 

Perhaps the biggest weakness is that the saw-blade cannot be raised or lowered and there is no real 'improvement' that can change that.

 

It is also rather inconvenient, but it presumably is a marketing thing, that the saw arbor is designed for blades with a 10 mm hole, which basically forces you to buy the blades from them. Standard hole diameters would be 8 mm or 16 mm (that is, if you are metric, of course).

 

On another note, it would not be very difficult (and you don't need machine tools) to build your own saw with the different parts e.g. for CNC machinery that are now readily available from ebay et al.

Edited November 9, 2023 by wefalck

[Gregory]

@wefalck

Excellent points, but when you address all the shortcomings of the KS230 , you now have an FET costing $300 .more.

Forgive the cliche, but you can't have your cake and eat it too..

[wefalck]

I didn't spend another 300€ on the KS230 and I wouldn't. These modifications cost me less than 30€ I think.

 

My problem is that I just don't have the space for an FET.

 

[Roger Pellett]

I have a Byrnes Saw bought shortly after they first became available, so it’s an old timer.  My interests include scratch building of warships’ boats and completing a very long term project; a steel hulled Great Lakes Steamship.  I do not anticipate building a classic POF sailing warship model.

 

Never less I continue to find new applications for my Saw that were totally unanticipated when I bought it:  cutting sheet brass and thin craft plywood, cutting dimensioned grooves in jigs to hold parts to be soldered, and most recently slicing off dozens of 1/32in thick hatch boards from a laminated stack.  The saw also did a great job of cutting a tapered blank for the mast of a Longboat model.

 

While many of these jobs could be performed by a milling machine, they’re expensive too, and setup is often more difficult.  In addition to its rigidity that allows accurate square cuts, the saw’s versatility is due to two features; the ability to raise and lower the blade and the 1/2in arbor that permits metal slotting blades of various widths.  I have never needed a tilting arbor ( which the saw doesn’t have), the extended fence, or the crosscut sled.  I did make a sled from a piece of aluminum angle, with an adjustable stop that fastens to the saw’s Standard miter gage.

 

It’s a shame that high shipping costs, customs duties, etc. limit access to this remarkable piece of equipment to those living outside of the USA.

 

Roger

[wefalck]

As you mention a tilting saw-blade, that is also something that I would have found useful at times (e.g. for cutting long mitres in certain pieces of joinery), but some people have come up with tilting/angled sleds (there are examples on YouTube for full-size machines that could be adapted).

[bruce d]

Spoiler alert: I recently got a BÖHLER saw which features a tilting blade.  It seems solid and well built.  So far I have only turned it on to see it works but once it passes the tests I will comment.  It has potential.

 

 

[wefalck]

There was a colleague (sadly deceased last year), who turned this into a useful tool and made a small series of micro-meter fences for a group of people here.

 

When I bought the KS230 nearly 30 years ago, the Böhler machines existed, but were not easy to get (no Internet sales back then), to see in the flesh, and at some stage the company went bankrupt, I believe. The other thing that then let me shy away was the fact that it uses 12 V DC motors - high speed, but low torque.

 

Perhaps one could use the cast parts from the Böhler and upgrade with a decent motor ...

[bruce d]

30 minutes ago, wefalck said:

Perhaps one could use the cast parts from the Böhler and upgrade with a decent motor ...

Watch this space.  🤐

[DerekMc]

I finally have the money to buy a Byrnes table saw. Here's hoping they will be available soon!  

[GGibson]

4 hours ago, DerekMc said:

I finally have the money to buy a Byrnes table saw. Here's hoping they will be available soon!  

Yep... I'm just waiting on their email reply saying they are back from their vacay! 👍