Shot Garlands

[tmj]

Did 18th century British shot garlands (first rate) actually have bowl shaped pockets carved into them, to accept the shot, or would they have been made as more simple 'troughs' to hold that shot, perhaps with a bit of padding to keep the loose shot from rolling around?  I can see pro's and also con's to both scenarios from both a 'construction' point of view as well as functionality. Working with a mass-produced kit makes it difficult to determine what is actually real and what is complete fantasy!   

Edited October 29, 2023 by tmj

[Morgan]

Definitely bowl shaped sockets, below is a free standing version recovered from the wreck of HMS St. George which sank I think in 1811, you can see the slight scalloping.

 

Gary

 

[tmj]

6 minutes ago, Morgan said:

Definitely bowl shaped sockets, below is a free standing version recovered from the wreck of HMS St. George which sank I think in 1811, you can see the slight scalloping.

Thanks Gary. I can see far more than just 'scalloping' going on here! This is nothing that I had envisioned, but I also really like what it shows! "Hmmm?" I may need to leave a few shot out of the garlands in order to display a construction method such as this! Very good, "Thank you!"

[tmj]

Would the open bottoms of those pockets be for corrosion control/ water drainage, or was it just easier to make the garland's in such a manner?

[Morgan]

I think it was just the way these were made, they were a temporary storage device used when going in to action and shot was brought up in bulk. For instance, Victory at Trafalgar had a thousand shot per deck brought up the day before battle, far more than the fixed garlands could accommodate, so these were used. The shot within them were stacked pyramidal fashion.

 

They could be square, oblong or triangular.

 

Gary

Edited October 29, 2023 by Morgan

[tmj]

This is the sort of stuff that I really like to see! I'm definitely going to 'try' to use this construction method on my build, if scale size allows. "Thanks again!" 

Edited October 30, 2023 by tmj

[Roger Pellett]

Wrecks of vessels that fought on the American Lakes during the War of 1812 had shot stored in the scooped out holes that you have in mind.  Sometimes scooped into the waterways.

 

Roger

[tmj]

23 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

Sometimes scooped into the waterways.

Roger, exactly what do you mean by "The Waterways"? What is a 'waterway'? 

Edited October 30, 2023 by tmj

[allanyed]

I am sure Roger has a ton more information as the waterway changed in shape and size over time.  Examples are below. the latter from Goodwin.

Allan

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by allanyed

[Morgan]

Tom,

 

Waterways are the planking structures that join the side of the ship to the decks, and usually formed so as to lead any water on the decks to the scuppers.  So Roger’s comments points to shot being stored on the deck along the ships sides on Great Lakes warships.  However, for your Victory cross section this would not be appropriate.

 

The British historian LG Carr Laughton, who investigated the Victory for her 1920’s refit notes that:

 

“Before 1780 shot racks were placed against the sides of the ship. By an order of 27 May 1780 they were directed to be moved to amidships or round the hatchways if desired, and these continued to be their positions till long after 1800’s. On 29 Mar. 1803, when the Victory was completing her repair, the Navy Board wrote to the Admiralty: "Understanding that it is now the practice on board H.M. Ships to keep the shot in the match tubs and put them in grummets [shot racks / garlands] upon the deck; if this circumstance is known to their Lord- ships we are desirous of being informed whether we shall continue to fit shot racks round the coamings of the hatchways, as it appears to us to be an unnecessary work and employing men improperly if they are to be removed by the officers." The Admiralty answered two days later that shot racks were to be fitted in the usual way except upon the quarter deck.

The Victory therefore must have had shot racks round the hatchways on all decks except the quarter deck“.

This is reinforced by visual evidence from JMW Turner in December 1806 sketches and watercolours that show no shot or facilities to store shot are present along the ships side or around the quarterdeck hatchways.  Unfortunately this was ignored and shot racks and other fanciful fittings are presently adorning Victory’s inner hull that simply weren’t in place way back when.

 

Gary

 

 

[tmj]

2 minutes ago, allanyed said:

One example is below

Ahh, okay, I get it now. Thanks Allan! Someday I'll become more familiar with a lot of these old naval architectural terms, but for now... you guys just need to bear with me! Sometimes I feel like 'Curly' from the 3 Stooges. "I'm trying to think, but nothing happens!" 😶  

[tmj]

17 minutes ago, Morgan said:

“Before 1780 shot racks were placed against the sides of the ship. By an order of 27 May 1780 they were directed to be moved to amidships or round the hatchways if desired, and these continued to be their positions till long after 1800’s. On 29 Mar. 1803, when the Victory was completing her repair, the Navy Board wrote to the Admiralty: "Understanding that it is now the practice on board H.M. Ships to keep the shot in the match tubs and put them in grummets [shot racks / garlands] upon the deck; if this circumstance is known to their Lord- ships we are desirous of being informed whether we shall continue to fit shot racks round the coamings of the hatchways, as it appears to us to be an unnecessary work and employing men improperly if they are to be removed by the officers." The Admiralty answered two days later that shot racks were to be fitted in the usual way except upon the quarter deck.

The Victory therefore must have had shot racks round the hatchways on all decks except the quarter deck“.

Gary, the depth of your knowledge and your case 'proof's' never cease to amaze me! "Very enlightening and 'always' welcome!"    

Edited October 31, 2023 by tmj

[wefalck]

13 hours ago, allanyed said:

 

Deviating a bit from the actual subject: The method shown on the last illustration for the 19th century seems to be rather unusal and I wonder, where the author got this from. All my 19th century (European) textbooks show the waterway sitting flat on the beams and not overlapping anything. The arrangements may vary a great deal in detail, also depending on the size of the vessel and whether naval or commercial. The arrangement on this last illustration would be difficult to caulk satisfactorily, just at a place that would be one of the wettest one on a deck. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by wefalck

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

the last illustration for the 19th century seems to be rather unusal and I wonder, where the author got this from.

Hi Eberhard

 

I don't know where Goodwin got the design, but I have seen at least one contemporary plan that is similar.  See below, the Talavera (74) 1818.  I have seen many more that are similar or exactly the same as the 18th century depiction above, that being somewhat flat as you describe.

 

Allan

 

[wefalck]

Allan, it seems that the version that I found strange was used on lower decks only. The upper deck shows the version with the waterway sitting flat on the beam, but is locked in place with a key (which is also a practice I had not noticed before. Technically speaking, that key would transmit the force from caulking the deck-planks into the beam, rather than to the top of the frames - which makes some sense.

[Roger Pellett]

This photo shows the bulwark and shot storage holes for the Brig Eagle built in 1814 to defend Lake Champlain from British Invasion. The drawing was made from the wreck evaluated by archeologists.   Eagle was a late addition to the American Fleet and built in a matter of weeks not months or years so there were many shortcuts taken in her construction.  This is, therefore, not suggested to be a typical arrangement

 

Roger

[mtaylor]

TMJ.

Get a copy of Historic Ship Models by xu Mondfeld.   The most inexpensive place is Ebay though Amazon might also be a good source.  It has a good breadkown of the various bits and pieces of period sailing ships.   There are some errors but one can follow up with a Google search if something seems "off".

[tmj]

10 minutes ago, mtaylor said:

TMJ.

Get a copy of Historic Ship Models by xu Mondfeld.   The most inexpensive place is Ebay though Amazon might also be a good source.  It has a good breadkown of the various bits and pieces of period sailing ships.   There are some errors but one can follow up with a Google search if something seems "off".

Thanks Mark. I found a copy on eBay for cheap. It's on its way. 

[AJohnson]

A fascinating discussion, if I might ask a minor detail with regard smaller vessels like Cutters; I'm currently making the Trial by Vanguard models.  Would these smaller vessels have fixed bulwark or waterway garlands?  The RMG plans and a contemporary model do not show them.  I understand absence does not mean they were not used, but was it more likely that temporary deck placed garlands were used? and placed beside the guns as discussed already on this thread.  For info. Trial had 8# 3 pounder Carriage guns and 4# 12 pounder Carronades from 1793, if that has any bearing.  Thanks for any opinions, I'm tempted to add more detail than the kit provides, but inclined to add triangular/square deck garlands if this was more likely than fixed ones.

Edited November 1, 2023 by AJohnson

[Roger Pellett]

Eagle, the vessel posted in the drawing above, was quickly built in an area with unlimited timber supplies and she was considered to be expendable.  Her construction, therefore, was not in accordance with that required for building major additions to the Navy’s saltwater fleet.

 

If you look at the drawing, you will see that the deck beams were sandwiched between her deck clamp and a waterway; both massive timbers.  This eliminated the need to fit knees to tie the deck beams into the side structure.  The large, rectangular waterway provided plenty of “meat” for cutting the holes for shot storage.  Your Trial was built with the usual knees to tie things together hence her much smaller sculpted waterways.  I doubt if this strength member would have been cut to store shot.

 

Roger

[Mark P]

On 10/31/2023 at 12:15 AM, Morgan said:

“Before 1780 shot racks were placed against the sides of the ship. By an order of 27 May 1780 they were directed to be moved to amidships or round the hatchways if desired, and these continued to be their positions till long after 1800’s. On 29 Mar. 1803, when the Victory was completing her repair, the Navy Board wrote to the Admiralty: "Understanding that it is now the practice on board H.M. Ships to keep the shot in the match tubs and put them in grummets [shot racks / garlands] upon the deck; if this circumstance is known to their Lord- ships we are desirous of being informed whether we shall continue to fit shot racks round the coamings of the hatchways, as it appears to us to be an unnecessary work and employing men improperly if they are to be removed by the officers." The Admiralty answered two days later that shot racks were to be fitted in the usual way except upon the quarter deck.

The Victory therefore must have had shot racks round the hatchways on all decks except the quarter deck“.

 

Good Evening All;

 

Re the reference to grummets in the above quote, the word 'grummets' is a version of grommet, which is a circle of rope formed by splicing the ends of a short length together. These could be made quickly, and easily moved to any place on deck where they might be needed. They would hold shot without trouble, and prevent them rolling around the deck. This could well be what was done on smaller vessels such as cutters. I have no knowledge of this being so, and I have not seen a reference to grommets in this context before, so I am grateful to Morgan for posting this comment in the first place. It would also have been easy to make these in a ladder or grid type arrangement, with spaces for several shot together. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[tmj]

I'm trying to find the approximate diameters of the cannon shot that would be found on all three of HMS Victory's gun decks. I keep finding 'poundage' ratings for the shot, but no actual diameters. I'm searching for the diameters of the shot(s) in order to determine whether or not I can feasibly fabricate scale replicas of the type of shot garland 'construction' presented by Morgan, earlier in this thread. Who here knows what the diameter of what HMS Victory's different size shots would have been?     

[Morgan]

Tom,

 

From the ‘Sea Gunners Vade Mecum’:

68-Pdr - 8.0 ins.

32-Pdr - 6.0 ins.

24-Pdr - 5.2 ins.

12-Pdr - 4.4 ins.

 

Gary

Edited November 1, 2023 by Morgan

[tmj]

Here's my first thought, unless a different style of arranging the shot would be more proper... like a 'pyramid' or some other configuration for staging the shot...

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by tmj

[tmj]

27 minutes ago, Morgan said:

Tom,

 

From the ‘Sea Gunners Vade Mecum’:

68-Pdr - 8.0 ins.

32-Pdr - 6.0 ins.

24-Pdr - 5.2 ins.

12-Pdr - 4.4 ins.

 

Gary

Were the 68 pounders actually on board during the Trafalgar era? 

[Morgan]

Just now, tmj said:

Were the 68 pounders actually on board during the Trafalgar era? 

Yes they were, they went aboard in August 1804.

 

Gary

[tmj]

40 minutes ago, Morgan said:

Tom,

 

From the ‘Sea Gunners Vade Mecum’:

68-Pdr - 8.0 ins.

32-Pdr - 6.0 ins.

24-Pdr - 5.2 ins.

12-Pdr - 4.4 ins.

 

Gary

Thanks Gary. I think that these dimensions will be quite doable at 1:98 scale. 

[Morgan]

Attached are two photo’s, one shows the shot racks to the hatchway coamings, and the other is a simple rope grommet for holding 4 shot.

 

For the triangular one’s think of a pool table rack for setting up the balls, but you would stack more on top in successive layers with the shot supporting each other to get the pyramid. Only 3 simple sides, nothing in the middle.

 

Gary

[tmj]

Got it. "Thanks Gary!"

[Morgan]

For the triangular rack - 3 balls along a side, which means 6 balls on the bottom, these then support a second layer of 3, and a single ball atop.

 

Gary

Edited November 2, 2023 by Morgan