Basic Question on the Placement of the Wales

[martimous]

Hello:

I've completed my very first planking job on a Mantua Santa Maria, and I was wondering about the placement of the wales. I've seen this subject discussed elsewhere on here, mostly about the thinning toward the bow rabbet, but haven't seen this specific question addressed.

Am I right in thinking that the wales planks follow the line of the strake beneath them (essentially doubling that strake) and thus does not necessarily follow line of the sheer, or do the wales follow the line of the sheer and occasionally cross several strakes? See picture 1 for following the sheer and picture 2 for following the strake.

Advice appreciated!! Thanks!!

Edited November 21, 2023 by martimous
order of pictures

[Louie da fly]

I don't know about other ships, but I do know that the main wale on the Lomellina (sank 1516, probably built 1503) was exactly in line with the main deck. But my understanding is that wales were effectively just thicker, heavier strakes, so other strakes would be placed in line with them.

 

Steven

[Keith_W]

@Louie da fly is correct. Wales are essentially very thick strakes. Look at this diagram: 

 

 

And md1400cs build log of his Santissima Trinidad cross section. 

[martimous]

Thanks for the info! That certainly makes sense.

I think my issue is that I did the planking wrong in that the strakes don't follow the deck sheer. Lesson learned, mark the wales on the frames when fairing the hull...

[allanyed]

 

7 hours ago, martimous said:

I did the planking wrong in that the strakes don't follow the deck sheer.

I cannot speak for the Santa Maria as there are no contemporary plans but I have never seen a contemporary plan where the planking follows the sheer of any deck so it is possible you got it right.  Look at the attached and you can see this on the of plans the Charles Galley 1676 and Litchfield 1695 - (I know, much later than SM)    You can see that the planking line is nothing like the sheer of the decks. 

 

Steven, ref: main wale on the Lomellina (sank 1516, probably built 1503)  Can you share the source on this as it is different than anything I have seen in the past, so far, and I find it fascinating.

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by allanyed

[Gregory]

4 hours ago, allanyed said:

but I have never seen a contemporary plan where the planking follows the sheer of any deck

That doesn't sound right Allan, but I could be wrong.

 

I'm not seeing the planking on the images you provided.

 

I my observation is that the wales and the planks in general, follow the sheer.

 

Here is a planking expansion and the planking appears to follow the sheer

 

[Louie da fly]

Allanyed, I'm attaching (my own) translation of the article that appeared in Archaeonautica, but looking more carefully at the cross sections in Part 6 I may have been misled by the midships cross-section to think the wale lined up with the main deck throughout the length of the ship. Further inspection reveals that the wale is by no means present in all the sections level with the main - by which I mean the middle deck - between the orlop and the upper deck as shown in Fig. 50 (Cross-section at floor timber W70).

 

To help with interpretation of the drawings, note that the partial sections (all of the ship that survived, unfortunately) are of the vessel as she was found - lying on her port side, so the keel is on the right of each section.

 

Thank you for bringing this to my attention - I'm planning to tackle Lomellina as my next build, so I don't want to get it wrong.  

 

Steven

Archaeonautica Lomellina article - English.pdf

[allanyed]

Hi Steven

Thanks for posting the treatise.  This will be my afternoon read today. 

 

Hi Gregory. Thank you for posting that planking expansion plan but it has no real baring on the wales and outboard planking.  On the planking drawing that you posted note that there are no wales which struck me as odd then realized it is the inboard planking drawing from the RMG site, not the outboard so a completely different matter.  With the deck beam clamps being part of the planking and dictating the location of deck beams it makes sense that the inboard planking would follow the sheer of the deck.  

 

On the drawings I posted, you can follow the line of the gun ports which we know must follow the line of the deck.  You can see that the deck sheer has no relation to the sheer of the planking/wales.  On the Litchfield drawing you can see the deck beams as well and again there is no relation of the sheer line of the decks to that of the planking.   Of a more modern nature, Brilliant (36) 1757, it is more detailed and obvious in the below plan if you follow the wale and compare to the sheer of the deck you can see there is no relation between the run of planking and sheer lines of the decks. 

 

Again, I cannot speak of the sheer of the Santa Maria as I have never seen actual evidence one way or the other. 

 

Allan

[druxey]

To 'read' ships' plans is a study in itself. Without a  working knowledge it is easy to get things confused, such as internal/external planking expansion plans. Perhaps it is easier to grasp the difference in longitudinal sheer and deck curves by studying photographs of contemporary models. The sheer of the wales and outer plank is easily seen. The line of ports will follow the sheer of the decks. Usually these cross each other, particularly aft.

 

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66344  Orford, 1698

 

 

 

That said, there are exceptions! My current model's deck and wale sheer happen to be identical! (This is a Dutch-built, French designed ship of 1778/9.)

[allanyed]

26 minutes ago, druxey said:

Perhaps it is easier to grasp the difference in longitudinal sheer and deck curves by studying photographs of contemporary models.

So simple yet brilliant.   

But, now I am questioning my own comments.  Looking at galleon models at RMG  (they are all modern (19th century and 20th century) the gun ports follow the sheer of the wales.   Hmmmmm.......are these accurate or artists' licenses?  Two examples are below of Great Harry (model made circa 1851) and a Spanish galleon created by James Lees and Philip Wride in 1988.   

Allan

[Jaager]

In Deane's Doctrine the main wale is defined by itself.  It has no relation to the sheer of the main deck.  There was an effort/ hope that the gunports do not totally cut thru the wale - which negates its purpose.  The Doctrine is between the time of the 18th century models and the actual galleons.  The Doctrine still has aspects of a system of formulas - adjusted over time - but reflective earlier design methods.

 

Models of Santa Maria are based modern design creations.  Just some naval architect from our time exercising his imagination of what he thought the ship probably looked like.  It is all a fantasy.  However you did it, there is no documented proof that it was not that way.

 

Next time for hull planking -  the main wale goes first - all of the outer skin is a reflection of it.  Next is the garboard.  Its upper edge wants to look like it comes from a diagonal.  A wavy edge - not good for the rest of the planking run.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Jaager

[Baker]

To return to the original question.
A wale is not mounted on the planks.
But it is actually a thicker plank (beam). which is mounted before the hull planks are applied.
So it is in the same line as the planks and can not cross the strakes.

[Baker]

2 minutes ago, Jaager said:

In Deane's Doctrine the main wale is defined by itself.  It has no relation to the sheer of the main deck.  There was an effort/ hope that the gunports do not totally cut thru the wale - which negates its purpose.  The Doctrine is between the time of the 18th century models and the actual galleons.  The Doctrine still has aspects of a system of formulas - adjusted over time - but reflective earlier design methods.

 

Models of Santa Maria are based modern design creations.  Just some naval architect from our time exercising his imagination of what he thought the ship probably looked like.  It is all a fantasy.  However you did it, there is no documented proof that it was not that way.

 

Next time for hull planking -  the main wale goes first - all of the outer skin is a reflection of it.  Next is the garboard.  It upper edge wants to look like it comes from a diagonal.  A wavy edge - not good for the rest of the planking run.

👍

[martimous]

Thanks for all the information on this, it's all an interesting read.

 

53 minutes ago, Baker said:

Models of Santa Maria are based modern design creations.  Just some naval architect from our time exercising his imagination of what he thought the ship probably looked like.  It is all a fantasy.  However you did it, there is no documented proof that it was not that way.

 

This quote makes perfect sense to me; I've seen quite a few drawings and also pictures of a modern "replica" of the ship, and honestly, they all look slightly different, especially in the stern area. I think since this is my first ship build and is mostly just to get my feet wet for the later builds to come (seven in the queue so far...!), I'm going to take the easy way out and follow the deck sheer with the wales and just recognize that's probably not the way it was done.

But now I know to watch out for it when fairing the hulls. You guys are awesome!

[Chuck Seiler]

    It was my understanding that the wale(s) is/are a longitudinal structural member.  Thicker than a normal strake, it provides heft for the knees to be bolted to.  Larger ships had multiple wales.  If the wale does not follow the deck sheer, this must not be true.

 

    What IS the purpose of the wale?

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, Chuck Seiler said:

If the wale does not follow the deck sheer, this must not be true.

Do you recall the source of this statement that the wales were to support the knees? Could have been for a particular nation or era?  Aside from who knows what was done on galleons, you can see thousands of contemporary plans and models that confirm your conclusion that the wales were to support the knees is not true.  Another example below, Hercules (74) 1760.  

 

From Peter Goodwin's The Construction and Fitting of English Men of War, page 53, ISBN 0-87021-016-5: The wales were bands of heavy planking on each side of the ship between the waterline and the lower gundeck ports. The purpose of the strakes was to stiffen the hull fore and aft, in an attempt to overcome the problem of hogging......... the wales were not laid  parallel to the gundeck. but to the designed sheer of the ship.  Therefore, the gunports at the fore and after ends had to be cut into the upper edge of the <main> wale.   He also goes on to describe when the wale was a split pair of strakes and when they were wide bands of four or three strakes.   There is a  more in his description including determining thickness, tapering near the bow

 

He describes the channel wales as well.  They are where the channel chains were secured, thus the need for heavier planking.   Goodwin describes the middle wales on larger rates but does not give a reason for their presence.

 

Allan

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by allanyed

[Gregory]

26 minutes ago, allanyed said:

the wales were not laid  parallel to the gundeck. but to the designed sheer of the ship. 

Wouldn't the planking follow the lay of the wales, thus the sheer of the ship?

The sheer of the ship appears to be defined defined differently than what might be considered the sheer of any particular deck.

[allanyed]

 

4 hours ago, Gregory said:

The sheer of the ship appears to be defined defined differently than what might be considered the sheer of any particular deck.

 I agree but I wonder how the sheer of the ship was actually determined.  I imagine one reason the deck sheer was to be flat enough to avoid cannon tipping over if the sheer was too great and sea conditions were at their worst.  I just starting looking at Steel in how the sheer line was actually determined.  LOTS to read, and will hopefully not fall asleep in the middle of it.

Allan

[Keith_W]

10 hours ago, Chuck Seiler said:

     What IS the purpose of the wale?

 

I believe there are two reasons for wales: 

 

1. It provides additional protection to the side of the ship 

2. It strengthens and stiffens the hull 

 

And maybe a third reason: 

 

3. It looks nice! 

[Louie da fly]

Yes. But as well as external wales for strengthening, most of the ships I encounter (mediaeval and renaissance) also have stringers inside the hull, doing a similar job. Except perhaps for looking nice . . . 

 

Steven

Edited November 25, 2023 by Louie da fly

[allanyed]

6 hours ago, Keith_W said:

It provides additional protection to the side of the ship 

 Hi Keith, 

This is an interesting point, but as there were main wales down low, middle wales on large rates and channel wales above, from what were they offering protection?

Allan

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by allanyed

[Chuck Seiler]

Allan,

    I don't know where I got that info from.  Maybe an actual quote or I merely deduced it from looking at plans.  My memory on the subject of galleons is that the frame futtocks were not fastened together as they were in the 18th and early 19th century.  Rather, they were fastened to a pair of wales and envisioned in the attached diagram. 

Keith,

    I find it hard to believe they are more 'rub rails'.  As Allan pointed out, in the multi deck SOLs of the 18th/19th century you have wales well above where any other ship or pier would contact,  If they don't serve as a place to anchor the knees, they are at least longitudinal structural members designed to strengthen the hull... along with internal stringers.  Of course Joshua Humphries took the internal strengthening to a whole new level with CONSTITUTION.

[OllieS]

From what everyone has said it seems likely that the use of wales has evolved as the (gun)deck sheer became less pronounced

Another point is that they may have had a predominant importance during construction to hold the framework before planking and gunports etc

It also makes sense to me that the outer planking follows the wales just because it's so much easier to do.

[allanyed]

 

16 hours ago, Chuck Seiler said:

along with internal stringers. 

Hi Chuck,

There were fore and aft longitudinals, or stringers, at the floor heads or at the first futtock heads below the water line outboard well below the wales.   But internally I do not recall seeing these.  Sorry if I am being obtuse or perhaps it is just nomenclature but I am only familiar with the spirketting, quickwork, sealing and clamps.   The below is the Euryalus, 36 and  might be helpful if it is terminology thing.  

 

Regarding the knees both the hanging knees and lodging knees fay to the deck beams and internal planking.   Other than appropriate bolts that go through the hull planking, the you're correct that the knees themselves are not associated with the wales.  

The channel knees help support the channel chains and the main wale is to prevent hogging.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by allanyed

[Louie da fly]

It just occurred to me that maybe we've misinterpreted the meaning of the title of this thread.

Sorry (couldn't help myself)  

 

Steven

[Chuck Seiler]

[druxey]

Joking aside, please note that early ships did not have continuous decks. They were stepped so as to avoid cutting ports into the wales, as seen in post #10, 'Santa Maria".

[Mark P]

Good Morning Everyone;

 

Some interesting thoughts are being added to this debate. However, although some are correct, and some somewhat less so, nobody has yet stated the truth regarding the reasons for adding wales to a ship. They were structural members, yes, and important ones; and they evolved over time from a number of single, relatively parallel strakes of timber into broader bands made up of several strakes together.

 

However, the main intention and function of wales was to counteract 'hogging', also called 'reaching'. This was the perennial problem of timber construction, wherein as a wave passes under a ship from end to end, the stern and bow in succession are left unsupported, and tend to droop. Over time, this led to the butt joints of the planking opening up, and to the keel becoming curved downward at each end. Warships were especially prone to this, due to the weight of the ordnance carried at bow and stern. 

 

The wales were separate strakes of heavier timbers, inserted in the planking, running parallel to the external planks. Although not always specified, they were often bolted to the timbers, not treenailed, for additional strength (remember that iron bolts were expensive, and were not used lightly)

 

In order to achieve the maximum benefit of this method of strengthening, the curvature of the wales was exaggerated relative to the sheer of the deck, so that the ends of the wales were higher relative to the line of the deck, than was the case amidships. 

 

The main wales were always sited so that they gave strength to the main deck, being in line with it at the midships, and above it at the bow and stern. 

 

As Druxey states above the decks were, in earlier times, stepped downwards at the end, in order to avoid the need to cut gunports through the wales, thereby weakening them. However, it was realised that this significantly weakened the resistance of the deck planking to hogging, and it was already recommended in England that steps should be avoided, by 1612. 

 

The internal planking, though, did follow the sheer of the decks.

 

The essential principle of internal planking was that at every location where there was a line of overlap in the ship's timbers, between floor timbers and futtocks, for example, and different ranks of futtocks, this overlap was strengthened with a much thicker band of planking, in many locations, and with quite a variety of names: for example, what in later times was known as 'spirketting', that is the run of thick timbers between the waterways and the gunport cills, was originally known as the 'spirkett wale'. This is because the spaces between the ends of the timbers were known as 'spirketts'. 

 

Others were 'sleepers'; 'middle bands'; and 'footwaling'. In later times these became known under the more generic term of 'thick stuff over the futtock heads'. 

 

In order for the wales of the model which started all this to look realistic, it is necessary that they must follow the sheer of the planking. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Mark P