KLarsen Posted December 31, 2023 Share #1 Posted December 31, 2023 Having just finished my first Ancre monograph scratch build, the Santa Caterina, I'm ready for something a LOT more ambitious: a stern cross section of La Mahonesa, a Spanish frigate (or possibly one of the other frigates built from the same plans, I've yet to decide on that). She'll be built from swiss pear only and be half planked, showing as much interior detail as I'm capable of doing. Initially I wanted to build La Belle from Ancre, but got completely overwhelmed when I studied the plans. Instead I decided to focus on what seemed to me the most difficult part of a hull, the stern section, and decided on La Mahonesa due to her size. However, I've already run into trouble and am unable to decipher the plans. 😂 The space between the angled stern frames doesn't seem to be consistent between plans. On plan 3 (frames) it's shown as 8mm, which is strange since the keelson is 7,3mm over the rest of the frames. Is the keelson supposed to be wider at the stern, even wider than the stern post? Somehow that doesn't make sense to me and is not how it's depicted on the other plans nor on the photos of the prototype model. On the overhead view the distance from the frame to the centerline is 2,5mm, making the space 5mm. Which plan should I trust here? Another point, the frame on the top photo is wider than when shown here on the overhead view. This leads me to believe that the frame is shown at 90 degress to its flat side, not from the stern of the ship. In that case, I suppose I can't trust the cross section of the keel and keelson as it's depicted but should take those measurements from the overhead and stern views? I hope I'm making some sense here... JacquesCousteau, Ondras71, GrandpaPhil and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.sorolla Posted January 2 Share #2 Posted January 2 Hi, Klarsen I am glad that you have decided for this project, the Mahonese is a beautiful frigate, I am sure that you will perform this work perfectly and you will be satisfied with the result, I will be happy to follow your progress. The length of the keel is 35cm at scale 1:1, which at 1/48 is 7.3mm, in all length, the half-timbers from 64 to 70 and from number 7 to number 1 are installed on a central wooden block, I have checked the measurement of the keel drawn in the different planes and in all measures 7.3mm, in their measurements there may be some error due to the dilation or contraction of the drawing in the printer, there is on page 130 of the book a breakdown of all the measures of the important parts. The best thing would be to take the measures of the axial structure of plane 3 that is dedicated to the structure. The drawing of the timbers of the plane nº8, should only be used to develop the scroll of the timbers. Adrián Sorolla KLarsen, davec, mtaylor and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLarsen Posted January 2 Author Share #3 Posted January 2 Hello Adrian, Thank you so much, that's great information! I've been studying the plans thoroughly this afternoon and got to the same conclusion regarding the central block. Do you mind if I contact you via PM here in the future if I have more questions about the plans? Again, thank you, much appreciated! davec, GrandpaPhil and mtaylor 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.sorolla Posted January 2 Share #4 Posted January 2 Yes, yes. No problem Adrián Sorolla KLarsen, GrandpaPhil, davec and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLarsen Posted January 4 Author Share #5 Posted January 4 I can finally get started on the model and today I made the keel. I also treated myself to a new toy, a Proxxon disc sander. Gone are the days of sanding everything by hand! dvm27, Niklas, davyboy and 9 others 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niklas Posted January 5 Share #6 Posted January 5 Interesting project, will follow you all the way.😀 Niklas davec, KLarsen and mtaylor 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wintergreen Posted January 5 Share #7 Posted January 5 This looks like a promising build to follow. Count me in 🙂 davec, mtaylor and KLarsen 3 Quote Happy modelling! Håkan __________________________________________ Current build: Atlantica by Wintergreen Previous builds Kågen by Wintergreen Regina by Wintergreen Sea of Galilee boat, first century, sort of... Billing Boats Wasa Gallery: Kågen (Cog, kaeg) by Wintergreen - 1:30, Billing Boats Regina - 1:30, Billing Boats Dana, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted January 5 Share #8 Posted January 5 Is the difference in measurement due to the fact that the cant frame drawing is a projection one, i.e. drawn at an angle to the centerline, not at right angles? mtaylor, KLarsen, davec and 1 other 4 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLarsen Posted January 5 Author Share #9 Posted January 5 20 minutes ago, druxey said: Is the difference in measurement due to the fact that the cant frame drawing is a projection one, i.e. drawn at an angle to the centerline, not at right angles? Possibly, but then the keel would also be distorted in this view, and it isn't. Anyway, using the measurements Adrián Sorolla told me everything seems to fit just fine. There's another plan that has the cross sections projected onto the side view that I hadn't noticed at first. scrubbyj427, mtaylor and davec 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrubbyj427 Posted January 5 Share #10 Posted January 5 I agree with Druxey, it appears to be a perspective view. Can you confirm? davec and mtaylor 2 Quote Current Builds: HMS Winchelsea 1764 1:48 - 5th rate 32 gun frigate (on hold for now) HMS Portland 1770 Prototype 1:48 - 4th rate 50 gun ship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLarsen Posted January 6 Author Share #11 Posted January 6 22 hours ago, scrubbyj427 said: I agree with Druxey, it appears to be a perspective view. Can you confirm? I'm not knowledgeable enough to confirm it with certainty, but it makes sense. The only thing I don't understand then, is why the keel is not distorted in the same view. What I can confirm though is that the frame is indeed seen from the right angle. The lines to the right of each frame shows it from the longitudinal view, and it is narrower there as one would expect. I've been progressing with the stern posts today. Don't worry, I'm not going to detail every little piece of the ship in this blog. 😉 I have a lot of respect for you guys building fully framed ships, these are just the baby steps I'm taking and I'm finding it really hard. I've already had to remake one piece because the template I used got stretched when gluing it on. Still I'm having a lot of fun and am learning, which is the most important! Siggi52, druxey, Vladimir_Wairoa and 9 others 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wintergreen Posted January 7 Share #12 Posted January 7 20 hours ago, KLarsen said: I'm finding it really hard Well, you are not alone with that feeling 😉 It's easy to feel inferior when looking at some of the builds here on MSW. Then we have to remember that with any performing art there are thousands, and even tenth of thousand hours behind in training to perfection (or as close as you can come). You are doing good from what it seems! Keep it up! druxey, mtaylor, davec and 1 other 4 Quote Happy modelling! Håkan __________________________________________ Current build: Atlantica by Wintergreen Previous builds Kågen by Wintergreen Regina by Wintergreen Sea of Galilee boat, first century, sort of... Billing Boats Wasa Gallery: Kågen (Cog, kaeg) by Wintergreen - 1:30, Billing Boats Regina - 1:30, Billing Boats Dana, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Idea Posted January 7 Share #13 Posted January 7 Fantastic start to a really nice ship; good luck with your build and it will be interesting to see the stern only build too. KLarsen, davec and mtaylor 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLarsen Posted January 9 Author Share #14 Posted January 9 Continuing with the puzzle. Cutting those pieces out by hand was "fun", maybe I should invest in a scroll saw... 🤔 Now I just need to fit everything and then I can sand down the pieces to the correct thickness and slope. Luckily the plans show the slope well, I just need to be careful. By the way, the stern post seems too high in the photo: in reality it's not, I just didn't align it well enough on the plan when taking the photo. The keel is maybe 0,5mm too tall but I can sand that off later. GrandpaPhil, uss frolick, Wintergreen and 8 others 10 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted January 9 Share #15 Posted January 9 Håkan is right; some of the models you see are built by veteran professionals. Take heart; your work so far is excellent. KLarsen, davec and mtaylor 3 Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niklas Posted January 9 Share #16 Posted January 9 Great start! mtaylor, KLarsen and davec 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdgiantman2 Posted January 10 Share #17 Posted January 10 19 hours ago, KLarsen said: maybe I should invest in a scroll saw... 🤔 As an amateur model builder myself, I do have a scroll saw and it is nice, however it looks to me more like a disc sander or oscillatory sander would be a greater addition. mtaylor and davec 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLarsen Posted January 10 Author Share #18 Posted January 10 2 hours ago, bdgiantman2 said: As an amateur model builder myself, I do have a scroll saw and it is nice, however it looks to me more like a disc sander or oscillatory sander would be a greater addition. I already bought a disc sander, and yeah it's invaluable. I can't even imagine having to sand those pieces by hand. davec and mtaylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
native one Posted January 11 Share #19 Posted January 11 A scroll saw is very useful especially when it comes to cutting out all the pieces for the frames,11 total for each frame for the Mahonesa's. mtaylor, KLarsen and davec 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLarsen Posted January 17 Author Share #20 Posted January 17 I'm progressing slowly but steadily with the keel: I had to buy yet another tool for this part. It's a manual x/y table for the Proxxon drill and stand. It should allow me to mill much more precise pieces than I could otherwise make. JacquesCousteau, No Idea, native one and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Idea Posted January 17 Share #21 Posted January 17 That is really sweet work my friend 🙂 I would be very pleased to have made that. Just a small tip - Try using 2 flute milling parts on wood. They remove the chips far better and give a very crisp finish. davec, dvm27, KLarsen and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLarsen Posted January 17 Author Share #22 Posted January 17 5 minutes ago, No Idea said: That is really sweet work my friend 🙂 I would be very pleased to have made that. Just a small tip - Try using 2 flute milling parts on wood. They remove the chips far better and give a very crisp finish. Thank you! I'll see if I can find 2 flute bits, unfortunately the shops around here don't have much to choose from. Maybe I can find them on Amazon though? No Idea, mtaylor and davec 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Idea Posted January 17 Share #23 Posted January 17 I get all of mine from Germany https://cnc-plus.de/en/End-Mills-266/2-flute-fish-tail/ DaveBaxt, davec, KLarsen and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wintergreen Posted January 18 Share #24 Posted January 18 14 hours ago, KLarsen said: I'm progressing slowly but steadily From what I have heard and learned the hard way, slow and steady is far better than fast and sloppy 😉 Looking good! mtaylor, KLarsen and davec 3 Quote Happy modelling! Håkan __________________________________________ Current build: Atlantica by Wintergreen Previous builds Kågen by Wintergreen Regina by Wintergreen Sea of Galilee boat, first century, sort of... Billing Boats Wasa Gallery: Kågen (Cog, kaeg) by Wintergreen - 1:30, Billing Boats Regina - 1:30, Billing Boats Dana, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLarsen Posted January 21 Author Share #25 Posted January 21 I've created the curve for the rotated frames and sanded the whole keel assembly to more or less the correct proportions. This weekend I created the transom pieces and fitted them, I left about 1-2 mm on the ends so I have something to remove when I eventually fit the last frame. I hope that's enough. I guess the best would be to not glue those pieces in yet, in case I need to change something when fitting the frame? Next up I have to create the yoke (not sure if that's the right name, yugo in Spanish. It's the uppormost transom piece). It is curved in both directions so that will be a bit more tricky to make. Then I can start on the frames, I'll probably make the "normal" frames first before the rotated half-frames, which seem rather difficult. Oh, and I also need to decide where exactly to cut the cross section. I'm thinking around frame 58 since that'll include the wheel and mizzen mast (I'll just install a stump, not the whole thing). Also the cut shouldn't be at a gun port but close to a deck beam. Decisions decisions. native one, No Idea, Wintergreen and 7 others 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niklas Posted January 21 Share #26 Posted January 21 That looks very good! Have you got yourself a scroll saw yet?😀 davec, KLarsen and mtaylor 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLarsen Posted January 22 Author Share #27 Posted January 22 8 hours ago, Niklas said: That looks very good! Have you got yourself a scroll saw yet?😀 Thanks! No, I've spent a little too much on tools lately. Also, I don't really have room for it, so I'll try and do without. davec and mtaylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLarsen Posted January 25 Author Share #28 Posted January 25 I was wondering if anyone could help me understand how the frames are drawn here: as I understand it, the short pieces or floor timbers face towards the master frame (the stem in this case), while the futtocks face towards the stern. However, the way the frame is drawn here the floor timber sits lower than the futtock. The hull should be sweeping upwards at this point though, it's the very end of the ship. I've tried drawing the pieces in red which is where I'd cut them. But unless I turn them around and have the futtock face towards the master frame they are never going to fit. Another thing: the pieces of each frame are joined at an angle. Is that normal? Would it be wrong to not complicate matters and just make the joint at a right angle? Am I misunderstanding the plans (I probably am, but I can't figure out in what way)? No Idea, mtaylor, davec and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralfee3 Posted January 26 Share #29 Posted January 26 I also analyzed these plans and it seems to me that looking at the cross-section from the central (triple) frame towards the bow, the profiles are in the opposite direction. davec and mtaylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLarsen Posted January 26 Author Share #30 Posted January 26 Looking at the plans again with fresh eyes helped. What I thought were the floor timbers are actually the futtocks. Since these are half frames there are no pieces connecting each side. I still need to decide if I want to make the joints at an angle or not. CiscoH, JacquesCousteau and davec 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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