Using gloss additive (Vallejo paint)

[Jonathan_219]

I'm working on getting the colors and paints selected for my Caldercraft Victory. I like the Vallejo Black (70.950) but it's a little too matte for my taste. I found a Vallejo product that appears to add some gloss finish Vallejo Gloss and have ordered some but wondered if anyone has used this or a similar product and has any tips or suggestions. I'm hoping I can somehow measure how much I add so I can replicate the same finish if one bottle of paint doesn't finish the job.

 

I have the Admiralty paint set for the Victory but the Dull Black provided is a little too glossy for me so I'm hoping there's a way to gloss up the Vallejo Black a little bit. If that doesn't work is there a way to find a black with the finish I like without having to buy a sample of a bunch of blacks and try them out.

 

I also wondered about mixing some of the Vallejo and Admiralty blacks but I'm concerned that duplicating that mixture and getting the results the same could be difficult.

 

So far I've just been testing on scrap wood to try and get the color/finish combination I want and the finish is almost harder to get right than the color. I think I've found a yellow I like and hopefully the gloss additive will work on it as well even though it's not Vallejo. If you're curious, here's the color I picked for Victory Yellow: Victory Yellow, The samples I've done have turned out a tiny bit darker than the sample on my monitor but I think it's going to work.

 

Any thoughts or tips on adjusting the finish gloss/satin/matte on acrylic model paint would be greatly appreciated.

[Nirvana]

54 minutes ago, Jonathan_219 said:

I'm working on getting the colors and paints selected for my Caldercraft Victory. I like the Vallejo Black (70.950) but it's a little too matte for my taste. I found a Vallejo product that appears to add some gloss finish Vallejo Gloss and have ordered some but wondered if anyone has used this or a similar product and has any tips or suggestions. I'm hoping I can somehow measure how much I add so I can replicate the same finish if one bottle of paint doesn't finish the job.

 

I have the Admiralty paint set for the Victory but the Dull Black provided is a little too glossy for me so I'm hoping there's a way to gloss up the Vallejo Black a little bit. If that doesn't work is there a way to find a black with the finish I like without having to buy a sample of a bunch of blacks and try them out.

 

I also wondered about mixing some of the Vallejo and Admiralty blacks but I'm concerned that duplicating that mixture and getting the results the same could be difficult.

 

So far I've just been testing on scrap wood to try and get the color/finish combination I want and the finish is almost harder to get right than the color. I think I've found a yellow I like and hopefully the gloss additive will work on it as well even though it's not Vallejo. If you're curious, here's the color I picked for Victory Yellow: Victory Yellow, The samples I've done have turned out a tiny bit darker than the sample on my monitor but I think it's going to work.

 

Any thoughts or tips on adjusting the finish gloss/satin/matte on acrylic model paint would be greatly appreciated.

Jonathan, I have using Vallejo paint for almost 15 years.
I am very pleased with their paint both regular but specially AV (for airbrushing)
And they do have two different gloss black, if you use a black primer the glossy with really come out.

Best is to apply a surface preparation before applying primer. 
Has buscado gloss black - Acrylicos Vallejo.
Go to Vallejos' website for more information.
And I wish you the best with your painting.

[Bob Cleek]

As you've asked for "any thoughts or tips," here are just a few: 

 

I am sure "Vallejo gloss" is simply more paint carrier (liquid) added to the "flattened" Vallejo paint to reduce the proportion of flattening agent added to their flat paint. It should work fine, although it will correspondingly reduce the proportion of pigment in the paint, as well, so the paint may not cover as well as without the gloss additive. As with all painting and varnishing exercises, experimentation is essential for every different type of coating (oil or water-based types) and every different brand of coating, because they all have their own chemistries, and they often don't play well together.   

 

When using the small quantities involved in testing various finish-adjusting recipes and in mixing modeling coatings themselves, measurements are extremely critical. I would recommend that you invest in a variously sized selection of disposable hypodermic syringes for use in mixing paint and conditioners so you can accurately measure and record the various proportions used when you do your test runs. I've found index cards useful for record keeping. The mixed coating is applied to the index card along with the "recipe" indicating how many "cc's" or whatever of each ingredient. This is also very handy for mixing paint colors, as well. Like a lot of modelers who've "gone over to the dark side" and scratch build, I use basic heavily-pigmented quality artists' oil paints packaged in a "toothpaste tube," so I measure basic paint and pigment mixture out of the tube by the length of oil paint extruded from the tube, and use the syringes for adding thinners and conditioners, but if you are working with bottled pre-mixed paint, the syringes will work best for measuring the amount of paint as well. Aside from the other advantages of oil-based paints over water-based paints, I particularly prefer the artists' oils because I mix my own colors, which I find easier to do with a pallet knife on a piece of glass.   

 

It's practically impossible to have a paint finish that is "too flat" (matte finish) on a scale model in scales smaller than 1:48. At that scale and larger, the "toy-ish-ness" of the model's appearance increases proportionate to the increase of the height of the finish's gloss. "Taste" is a certainly subjective both as to the artist and to their audience, but "good taste" is generally easy to distinguish from "bad taste" and the good is usually the safer standard if one has any interest in pleasing an audience. If you wish to maintain the illusion of reality from a scale viewing distance, glossy finishes must be avoided. 

 

One of the disadvantages of water-based acrylic paints is that when cured they remain somewhat soft and so are difficult to abrade. Oil based paints and varnishes "dry" (polymerize) to a harder finish which is much easier to rub or sand. Classically, oil-based paint was applied and allowed to dry to its natural gloss finish and was then rubbed with pumice and/or rottenstone to produce the level of finish desired. In this fashion, the entire spectrum from gloss to flat is available in any color one wishes to apply. Unfortunately, however, water-based paints may not respond to fine abrasives for flattening as easily as oil-based coatings do, I've never tried to hand rub a water-based finish, so you may wish to experiment and see if hand rubbing your acrylic paint finish will work for you. (On a test piece, of course. Never experiment on the model itself. The whole point of experimenting is to have your failures occur anywhere other than on the finished work!  )

 

Alternately, "flattening agents" can be added to both oil and water-based coatings to produce a flat effect. These are basically just "dirt," mixed in a liquid carrier, oil or water respectively. (Diatomaceous earth, to be exact.) The carriers in these flattening agents are often specific to the chemistries of individual paint brands, so not only is using a flattening agent for water-based paints inadvisable for use in oil-based paints, and vice-versa, but using a different brand of flattening agent from the brand of the paint used, or even the type of paint used when made by the same manufacturer inadvisable. Additionally, if one wishes to determine the degree of flattening effect achieved, test "chips" must be made, and the flattened paint allowed to dry completely. From these, if very careful records are kept, recipes can be followed to replicate the same degree of flattening from batch to batch. The use of flattening agents requires very careful measurements to ensure uniformity in different batches and, as the quantities of the batches mixed tend to be small in modeling, the tolerances of fluctuations in the measurements becomes increasingly more critical. Professional painters generally agree that if anything other than a dead flat result is desired, using flattening agents to replicate various degrees of gloss should be avoided if anything more than a single batch is required. (Where architectural specifications demand a specific level of gloss, professionals will generally order a specified custom production run from the manufacturer to insure uniformity.) You can try the flattening agent from the manufacturer of your paint and see if you can work with it to your satisfaction. It may be helpful to understand how flattening agents work. Basically, the create a rougher surface on the dried paint surface from which light does not reflect as readily as from a smooth surface. When the flattening "dust" is added to the paint, when the paint dries, the flattening "dust" particles stand proud above the surface of the paint film. So, the amount of dust particles determines how "rough" the paint surface will be and how much reflection will come off of it. On balance, it is far, far easier on smaller pieces, of work, like models, to hand rub the surface to the level of gloss (or no gloss) desired than to mix flattened paint, because the flattening effect can be seen as the rubbing is being done.

[Jonathan_219]

Thanks for the info, I really like Vallejo paint too, I'd just like to be able to adjust the finish some and hoping that's possible.

 

I have seen the black gloss Vallejo, I'm just thinking that it's going to be too glossy. If flat matte is 0 and full gloss is a 10 then I'm looking for a something around a 3 on that scale of glossiness.

[allanyed]

7 hours ago, Jonathan_219 said:

I like the Vallejo Black (70.950) but it's a little too matte for my taste.

There have been several threads on this here at MSW, but I do not recall ever seeing any information based on contemporary sources regarding the finish appearance which could be interesting.  Glossy finishes on modern fiberglass and steel hull yachts is common, but for warships I was taught that a matte finish is more realistic.   This may not be correct,  but wouldn't it make sense that the last thing a warship needs is a glossy finish so it stands out?   I am pretty sure high gloss finishes were not done, but in the end, go with what makes you happy.   

Allan

[Jaager]

A different path - shellac.

Half strength is an excellent primer - easy to wipe on - quick to dry - an excellent undercoat for just about anything.  Scotch Brite (fine), tack, and then paint.

 

As a finish coat - it does not have build up.   The more coats, the more glossy.  If a touch of linseed oil is added, it is what was French polish. Substituting Tung oil (pure - not something hinky like Homer's) worked for me.

 

My suggestion is that you can get where you wish - with significant control and a reverse gear - if you use your present flat black and follow on with shellac - you can sneak up on your desired degree of gloss - by using multiple layers of shellac - Scotch Brite when each layer is dry - tack and wipe on another layer. 

Alcohol removes it if you dislike or go too glossy.

[Roger Pellett]

You can make your own black paint with the exact amount of gloss that you want.  Buy a tube of artist’s acrylic black and a bottle of acrylic gloss medium.  A tube of white would also be useful for adding a “scale effect” to the black. Here in the US any craft store will stock these items.  Start by squeezing out some black on a palette; a piece of glass is perfect.  Mix in a little white to get the right scale color.  Add a little gloss medium. When you’re happy with the result, mix up a larger batch, thin with water, and paint.

 

Roger

[wefalck]

I have been using Vallejo acrylics for years. Their shine depends on how they are applied, with a brush or with an airbrush. Airbrush application gives matt or satin surfaces. For a high gloss of varnish it needs to be applied by brush or very wet by airbrush - with the risk of 'runners'.

 

Acrylic paints are a mixture of emulsion and suspension (while oil paints are suspensions). Emulsions are very delicate and the wrong thinner or mixing them with other brands can lead to a break-down of the emulsion, i.e. coagulation or clotting.

 

Pure acrylic emulsions are glossy when cured. Matt or satin varnishes or paints are achieved by adding various quantities of finely dispersed pumice or diamtomee earth. Adding pigment to give a paint in itself acts like a matting agent, which is one reason, why most acrylic paints are satin at most.

 

Acrylic paints and varnishes cross-link quickly, which is why they dry fast. However, this process traps some water in the structure, which then can take days or weeks to diffuse out and evaporate. At the same time the cross-linking continues to intensify. For this reason, acrylics stay sort of rubbery for a long time. Depending on the formulation, they never will be as hard as fully oxidised paint based on lineseed-oil.

For this reason, the classical method discussed above, of rubbing down oil-paint with pumice and then re-buff it to the desired sheen does not really work, at least not with the Vallejo-paints. There acrylic paint formulations for industrial applications, such as painting machine tools, that will be as hard as oil paints.

 

Rather than mixing something into your black paint, I would experiment with different mixing ratios of gloss and satin Vallejo acrylic varnish (I would use the pre-diluted Model Air range for this) until you get the sheen you want with your chosen application methods, i.e. brush or airbrush.

[Keith Black]

The dust collected on a glossy surface is much easier to remove than dust on a matte finish......just saying. 

[ERS Rich]

A couple of thoughts, Have used AV paint, with a Paasche Talon, for the last few years and happy with the results.  Have never tried adding gloss medium to paint, rather I use the Vallejo gloss resin.  Have found the gloss finish can be built up with thin coats.  
 

Tamiya Flat black may be worth a try.

 

Good luck with it…..

 

 

[Jonathan_219]

Follow Up:

 

I got the Vallejo Gloss Medium (70.470) and I added 3 drops of it to a brand new bottle of Vallejo Black (70.950) and it gives me what I was looking for which is just the slightest bit of gloss on the, to my eyes, very matte Vallejo Black, it's still quite matte just not as much as before. For me this is a very simple way to getting some control on the amount of gloss on the paint I use. For some reason too little or too much gloss just doesn't look right to me so I'm happy that there are ways to adjust the gloss.

 

I tried taking a picture of the normal and gloss-added black paint tests on some wood next to each other but I just can't get a picture that shows the admittedly subtle difference. Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions, I may end up coming back to them but for now I think adding the gloss medium gets me what I wanted.