hollowneck Posted August 29 #121 Posted August 29 6 hours ago, DB789 said: Do you know why we typically depict the topmast and topgallant yards in the lower position on the masts if they were usually raised? Was that their position in port? I'm speculating, but I believe that once in a safe anchorage (port, a harbor) a squaresailer's upper yards were lowered with their sails still bent to them. I believe that most people saw these tall ships in this configuration, rather than seeing them on the open seas with yards raised, sails deployed. Also, it was a lot of work to remove and replace massive canvas sails. They were also expensive. By leaving them bent to their yards and lowered (at "rest" essentially), a Captain could then immediately "set sail" with favorable wind conditions to depart from an anchorage. Many times it was too difficult – if not impossible - for a sailing ship to haul anchor due to adverse wind conditions. Ships and their crews had to be ready at a moment's notice to depart. I've gleaned a lot of my knowledge about this subject by reading books about sailing, as well as the Patrick O'Brian Aubrey/Maturin series novels. I've also captained a 41' sailing ship (ketch) and learned a couple things about the physics of the wind, sea and gravity as they interact, in real-time. ECK 1 Quote Ron Director, Nautical Research Guild Secretary/Newsletter Editor, Philadelphia Ship Model Society Former Member/Secretary for the Connecticut Marine Model Society Current Build: Grace & Peace (Wyoming, 6-masted Schooner) Completed Builds: HMS Grecian, HMS Sphinx (as HMS Camilla) Ongakuka Maru, (Higaki Kaisen, It Takes A Village), Le Tigre Privateer, HMS Swan, HMS Godspeed, HMS Ardent, HMS Diana, Russian brig Mercury, Elizabethan Warship Revenge, Xebec Syf'Allah, USF Confederacy, HMS Granado, USS Brig Syren
Oboship Posted August 29 #122 Posted August 29 (edited) Do you know why we typically depict the topmast and topgallant yards in the lower position on the masts if they were usually raised? Was that their position in port? To lower the yards while the ship was anchored would also lower the centre of gravity to some extent. Fully furnished yards (sails, blocks etc.) were considerably heavy and -when in raised position- may have caused some uncomfortable and endangering movements of the ship in stronger winds. This is also the reason why top masts and topgallant masts were struck in severe weather conditions. If I recall it correctly, these manoeuvres are described more in detail in "Seamanship In The Age of Sail" by John Harland (my absolute favourite book to look up certain operations). Coming back to modelling: your Adder is really nice and well done! I like the pictures! Uwe Edited August 30 by Oboship AJohnson and PaddyO 2 Quote
hollowneck Posted August 30 #123 Posted August 30 19 hours ago, Oboship said: "Seamanship In The Age of Sail" by John Harland This also one of my favorite reference books on sailing. It is expensive, but well worth the investment. Some libraries also have it available. Oboship 1 Quote Ron Director, Nautical Research Guild Secretary/Newsletter Editor, Philadelphia Ship Model Society Former Member/Secretary for the Connecticut Marine Model Society Current Build: Grace & Peace (Wyoming, 6-masted Schooner) Completed Builds: HMS Grecian, HMS Sphinx (as HMS Camilla) Ongakuka Maru, (Higaki Kaisen, It Takes A Village), Le Tigre Privateer, HMS Swan, HMS Godspeed, HMS Ardent, HMS Diana, Russian brig Mercury, Elizabethan Warship Revenge, Xebec Syf'Allah, USF Confederacy, HMS Granado, USS Brig Syren
DB789 Posted September 3 Author #124 Posted September 3 Ron and Uwe, thanks so much for the advice. I’ll definitely order a copy of that book. I’ve done plenty of sailing on modern fire and aft rigged yachts, but certainly don’t understand how square rigged sailing ships were handled. Andrew and Eck thanks for the comments. hollowneck, AJohnson and Oboship 3 Quote Dan Current Build: Yacht Duchess of Kingston (Vanguard Models, 1:64) Previous Builds: Fifie (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Nisha (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Zulu (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Saucy Jack (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Erycina (Vanguard Models, 1:64), HMS Alert (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Grecian (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Ranger (Vanguard Models, 1:64), HM Gun Brig Adder (Vanguard Models, 1:64) Waiting to be Built: Speedy (Vanguard Models, 1:64)
DB789 Posted September 3 Author #125 Posted September 3 Adder is now finished. Another absolutely superb kit from Vanguard. Even more so than on previous Vanguard kits Chris has really innovated and made this ship as easy as possible to build whilst in no way compromising the finished outcome which I think looks superb (despite my building skills). I can’t Adder recommend enough. Adder was a step up in terms of complexity for me over Grecian and Alert in two areas. Firstly rigging a square rigger, the plans were excellent and very clear but just tying off the lines to belaying pins and feeding them around and through the tops was very fiddly (and that’s on a slightly simplified rig than other kits such as Speedy/Flirt). Nonetheless this was the ideal first square rigger for me to build and will prepare me well for my next build. Secondly the bow planking would have been a challenge if I’d wanted to have an unpainted lower hull, but the cleverness of Chris’s kit is that all the planking is below the waterline so it didn’t really matter what the planking looked like so long as it was smoothable with sandpaper and filler. Other than those areas I found her to be a very straightforward and accessible build. I have barely strayed from the kit and made very few adjustments such as drilling out the carronades and breach rigging the cannons and carronades. I’ve added a red duster. The ensign is a flag from BECC and isn’t very high quality. It’s heavily shown up by the American ensign I bought from Vanguard for Grecian which is made on a much higher quality material, with better printing and a lower propensity to fray at the edges. Unfortunately the ensign sets that Chris sells are too big for a small model such as Adder. Chris any chance you could sell some high quality small ensigns? I used the same process as on Grecian for shaping the ensign with a fabric stiffener and weighting with crocodile clips, this ensign needed a fair bit of CA to hold its shape too. Thanks to Chris for another super kit and for everyone else for the advice, likes and encouragement. ccoyle, rcweir, PaddyO and 16 others 13 6 Quote Dan Current Build: Yacht Duchess of Kingston (Vanguard Models, 1:64) Previous Builds: Fifie (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Nisha (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Zulu (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Saucy Jack (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Erycina (Vanguard Models, 1:64), HMS Alert (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Grecian (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Ranger (Vanguard Models, 1:64), HM Gun Brig Adder (Vanguard Models, 1:64) Waiting to be Built: Speedy (Vanguard Models, 1:64)
AJohnson Posted September 3 #126 Posted September 3 Well done Dan, your Adder looks fantastic! So what is next on your VM fleet!? ⛵ Oboship 1 Quote Andrew Current builds:- HM Gun-brig Sparkler - Vanguard (1/64) , HMAV Bounty - Caldercraft (1/64) Completed (Kits):- Vanguard Models (1/64) :- HM Cutter Trial , Nisha - Brixham trawler Caldercraft (1/64) :- HMS Orestes(Mars), HM Cutter Sherbourne Paper Shipwright (1/250) :- TSS Earnslaw, Puffer Starlight
Glenn-UK Posted September 3 #127 Posted September 3 Well done Dan, you have built an excellent model. Oboship and AJohnson 2 Quote Glenn (UK)
Knocklouder Posted September 3 #128 Posted September 3 Awesome model my freind, well done definitely a keeper. Bob M. AJohnson and Oboship 2 Quote Start so you can Finish !! Finished: The Sea of Galilee Boat-Scott Miller-1:20 , Amati } Hannah Ship in a Bottle:Santa Maria : LA Pinta : La Nana : The Mayflower : Viking Ship Drakkar The King Of the Mississippi Artesania Latina 1:80 Current Build: Royal Yacht, Duchess of Kingston-Vanguard Models
DB789 Posted September 3 Author #129 Posted September 3 Thanks Andrew, Bob and Glenn! Andrew - my next build was always going to be Speedy (my stash is strictly kept at 1 kit) but I found Adder’s rigging a challenge and for Speedy adding all the extra rigging going under the tops and belayed below seems a little daunting. I think it’s an extra 3-4 blocks for each side on the main and fore yards… So I’ve bought Duchess of Kingston too, which I understand has less of the running rigging - albeit not without her rigging challenges either (3 masts, crows feet, etc) and there’s a lot more detailed painting to be done. I’m going to have a good look at the rigging plans of both and decide which should be built first. Chris, if you’re reading this I’d be very interested in your view on which is the more natural progression after Adder? I’m not worried by either hull, it’s just the rigging. Many thanks for any advice. Dan chris watton, Oboship and AJohnson 3 Quote Dan Current Build: Yacht Duchess of Kingston (Vanguard Models, 1:64) Previous Builds: Fifie (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Nisha (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Zulu (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Saucy Jack (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Erycina (Vanguard Models, 1:64), HMS Alert (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Grecian (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Ranger (Vanguard Models, 1:64), HM Gun Brig Adder (Vanguard Models, 1:64) Waiting to be Built: Speedy (Vanguard Models, 1:64)
AJohnson Posted September 3 #130 Posted September 3 26 minutes ago, DB789 said: Andrew - my next build was always going to be Speedy (my stash is strictly kept at 1 kit) but I found Adder’s rigging a challenge ….. So I’ve bought Duchess of Kingston too, which I understand has less of the running rigging - We shall watch out and see which you choose! 👍 Oboship 1 Quote Andrew Current builds:- HM Gun-brig Sparkler - Vanguard (1/64) , HMAV Bounty - Caldercraft (1/64) Completed (Kits):- Vanguard Models (1/64) :- HM Cutter Trial , Nisha - Brixham trawler Caldercraft (1/64) :- HMS Orestes(Mars), HM Cutter Sherbourne Paper Shipwright (1/250) :- TSS Earnslaw, Puffer Starlight
Glenn-UK Posted September 3 #131 Posted September 3 I think you'll find the DOK the better option. It is bigger than Speedy so there is more room to access the belaying points. Also it is not a copper bottomed model. There is much more detail to add to hull. AJohnson 1 Quote Glenn (UK)
chris watton Posted September 3 #132 Posted September 3 1 hour ago, DB789 said: I’m going to have a good look at the rigging plans of both and decide which should be built first. Chris, if you’re reading this I’d be very interested in your view on which is the more natural progression after Adder? I’m not worried by either hull, it’s just the rigging. Many thanks for any advice. Dan I have said this before, you do not have to add any rigging relating to sails. You could rig Speedy exactly as you did for Adder, omitting the clews, jeers and bowlines etc. Duchess is slightly easier as there is no flying jibboom and associated rig for that (And sail related rig omitted altogether) – but more shrouds and ratlines, being ship rigged. Thukydides, PaddyO, AJohnson and 1 other 4 Quote Vanguard Models on Facebook
hollowneck Posted September 3 #133 Posted September 3 Congratulations, Dan. You've done a superb job with your model, including the rigging. I have the Adder box sitting in my shop and it will be my next up build when I'm done with my current one. Your Adder will be the Build log I refer too in just a few short weeks! Oboship 1 Quote Ron Director, Nautical Research Guild Secretary/Newsletter Editor, Philadelphia Ship Model Society Former Member/Secretary for the Connecticut Marine Model Society Current Build: Grace & Peace (Wyoming, 6-masted Schooner) Completed Builds: HMS Grecian, HMS Sphinx (as HMS Camilla) Ongakuka Maru, (Higaki Kaisen, It Takes A Village), Le Tigre Privateer, HMS Swan, HMS Godspeed, HMS Ardent, HMS Diana, Russian brig Mercury, Elizabethan Warship Revenge, Xebec Syf'Allah, USF Confederacy, HMS Granado, USS Brig Syren
Thukydides Posted September 3 #134 Posted September 3 Congrats and great job. AJohnson 1 Quote Current Builds: HMS Perseus (Scratch) Completed Builds: Type VII C U Boat (HobbyBoss); HM Cutter Alert (Vanguard Models)
DB789 Posted September 3 Author #135 Posted September 3 55 minutes ago, chris watton said: I have said this before, you do not have to add any rigging relating to sails. You could rig Speedy exactly as you did for Adder, omitting the clews, jeers and bowlines etc. Duchess is slightly easier as there is no flying jibboom and associated rig for that (And sail related rig omitted altogether) – but more shrouds and ratlines, being ship rigged. Thanks Chris, when I get to Speedy I’d like to add all the extra rigging if I can. The more familiar I am with the basic rigging, the easier I’ll find it to add more… Duchess sounds like the more sensible next build. Shrouds and ratlines are a touch dull, but they’re not difficult. 1 hour ago, Glenn-UK said: I think you'll find the DOK the better option. It is bigger than Speedy so there is more room to access the belaying points. Also it is not a copper bottomed model. There is much more detail to add to hull. Thanks Glenn, size will really help too, more confirmation for the Duchess. I’m away a couple of days but when I’m back I’ll look through Duchess’s plans more thoroughly and make a final decision. Strongly suspect that it will be for Duchess. AJohnson 1 Quote Dan Current Build: Yacht Duchess of Kingston (Vanguard Models, 1:64) Previous Builds: Fifie (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Nisha (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Zulu (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Saucy Jack (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Erycina (Vanguard Models, 1:64), HMS Alert (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Grecian (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Ranger (Vanguard Models, 1:64), HM Gun Brig Adder (Vanguard Models, 1:64) Waiting to be Built: Speedy (Vanguard Models, 1:64)
DB789 Posted September 3 Author #136 Posted September 3 Andrew, Ron, Thuky, Thanks for all the comments and praise, much appreciated. Dan Thukydides and AJohnson 2 Quote Dan Current Build: Yacht Duchess of Kingston (Vanguard Models, 1:64) Previous Builds: Fifie (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Nisha (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Zulu (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Saucy Jack (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Erycina (Vanguard Models, 1:64), HMS Alert (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Grecian (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Ranger (Vanguard Models, 1:64), HM Gun Brig Adder (Vanguard Models, 1:64) Waiting to be Built: Speedy (Vanguard Models, 1:64)
Ronald-V Posted September 3 #137 Posted September 3 Lovely result! Well done, that's a nice addition to your fleet Oboship and AJohnson 2 Quote Currently working on the HMS Sphinx from Vanguard Models
ECK Posted September 3 #138 Posted September 3 Looks great! I think you can easily do more complex ships and rigging. Sometimes easier as you have more space to work with. AJohnson 1 Quote
ccoyle Posted September 3 #139 Posted September 3 Very handsomely done! AJohnson 1 Quote Chris Coyle Greer, South Carolina When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk. - Tuco Current builds: Brigantine Phoenix, DS Børøysund
Oboship Posted September 3 #140 Posted September 3 Dan, This is a really beautiful model! Very well done in all aspects! I would also like to buy this kit but I still have Speedy on the work bench and Trial and Nisha on the shelf. To squeeze in Adder would mean some serious negotiations with the admiral (the superintendent as we would say in the merchant navy...). Uwe AJohnson 1 Quote
dunnock Posted September 4 #141 Posted September 4 Well done Dan, a lovely model and your rigging looks excellent. David Oboship and AJohnson 2 Quote David Previous Builds HM Cutter Hunter Mamoli 1:74 Baltic Ketch Scotland - Corel 1:64 HMS Fly - Swan Class ship sloop - Victory models 1:64 HMS Diana - Artois Class Heavy Frigate - Caldercraft - 1:64 HM Cutter Trial 1790 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 18th Century Merchantman Half Hull - NRG-1:48 Current Build HMS Speedy 1782 2023 Edition - Vanguard Models - 1:64
DB789 Posted September 6 Author #142 Posted September 6 Thank you Ronald, Eck, Uwe, Chris, David. Much appreciated. I have had a good look at DoK's plans vs. Speedy and as Chris says there is more rigging for DoK, but to do the full rigging for Speedy looks considerably more complex. So DoK next it is. I'm hoping to build Speedy after DoK with all the running rigging in place, but if that is too difficult I will fall back on a similar rig to Adder as Chris suggested, In terms of lines included on DoK it looks similar to those included on Adder with the addition of crows feet which will be a new challenge. The hull / decor looks like a big step up, but that is my favourite part of the build so I'm looking forward to it! As expected DoK is the same absolutely excellent high quality kit that I have got used to from Vanguard. I probably will have a break and start building her in a few weeks time. AJohnson, Oboship and dunnock 3 Quote Dan Current Build: Yacht Duchess of Kingston (Vanguard Models, 1:64) Previous Builds: Fifie (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Nisha (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Zulu (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Saucy Jack (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Erycina (Vanguard Models, 1:64), HMS Alert (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Grecian (Vanguard Models, 1:64), Ranger (Vanguard Models, 1:64), HM Gun Brig Adder (Vanguard Models, 1:64) Waiting to be Built: Speedy (Vanguard Models, 1:64)
davec Posted September 6 #143 Posted September 6 Dan - Beautiful model - congratulations on finishing! Dave AJohnson and DB789 2 Quote Current builds: Wingnut Wings 1/32 Halberstadt Cl.II Model Shipways 1/48 Longboat Model Shipways 1/24 Grand Banks Dory Soon to start: Fully framed Echo Completed builds: Kotare 1/32 Spitfire Mk.Ia Wingnut Wings AMC DH9 East Coast Oyster Sharpie Echo Cross Section 1/48 Scratchbuilt Hannah from Hahn plans 1/64 Kitbashed Rattlesnake from Bob Hunt practicum 1/64 Brig Supply
Glenn-UK Posted September 6 #144 Posted September 6 36 minutes ago, DB789 said: I have had a good look at DoK's plans vs. Speedy and as Chris says there is more rigging for DoK, but to do the full rigging for Speedy looks considerably more complex. So DoK next it is. I'm hoping to build Speedy after DoK with all the running rigging in place, but if that is too difficult I will fall back on a similar rig to Adder as Chris suggested, In terms of lines included on DoK it looks similar to those included on Adder with the addition of crows feet which will be a new challenge. The hull / decor looks like a big step up, but that is my favourite part of the build so I'm looking forward to it! As expected DoK is the same absolutely excellent high quality kit that I have got used to from Vanguard. I probably will have a break and start building her in a few weeks time. Hello Dan I am sure you will really enjoy building the DOK. It is a very decorative looking boat which really attracted me to her. Adding crows feet is nowhere as bad as you think it will be once you have worked out the sequence. Enjoy the break. Glenn (UK) DB789, AJohnson and Oboship 3 Quote Glenn (UK)
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