Chapman Posted June 8 Share #31 Posted June 8 The Ares will be great! Many brig sloops had carronades as their main armament. Would this be a credible weapon for your model? If you can't find any suitable carronades, you can still build your own. Perhaps a small series of metal or resin casts would be suitable for this, as is the case for all guns? It is possible that they could also be used for the other planned Greek ships. I make my guns from white metal alloy because that's what I work with. Resin will definitely work too. Attached is a photo of earlier gun casts. The 3 Dutch guns were built from wood. Plastic or brass would be better here. the British 4 pounder shown on the right was built from polystyrene. All were cast in white metal alloy. Keith Black, GeorgeKapas and GrandpaPhil 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted June 8 Author Share #32 Posted June 8 (edited) Thank you wefalck! Early 1800s is quite difficult to find plans from Venice, private ships even worse and there is a distinct lack of naval historical archives in Greece as well. I hope some day they will, at least there are many photos of Ares, I'll post more. In fact Ares launch date is not even certain, other sources state 1807, not 1819... Thank you for your input about the use of materials, yes they are just a means to an end. I dislike the use of wood in smaller scales, much prefer plastic and paper aswell. As far as the copper plates, I am a big proponent of "scaling for effect" especially in smaller ships. I originally used very thin 0.3mm thick plastic plates, like you suggested, to create the effect on the Frigate Hellas, a model I have yet to post. The process took much more time, it looked terrible from close up, like a brick wall (in reality the plates have to overlap to created a visible raised lip on their edges) and just a few centimeters away, the pattern became invisible. I could not make it work... I also feel that I cant depict the size of the model properly here, it is hard to translate how small it is, because of the closeups, just visualize her keel is just 18cm long. Edited June 8 by GeorgeKapas Keith Black 1 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted June 8 Author Share #33 Posted June 8 26 minutes ago, Chapman said: The Ares will be great! Many brig sloops had carronades as their main armament. Would this be a credible weapon for your model? If you can't find any suitable carronades, you can still build your own. Perhaps a small series of metal or resin casts would be suitable for this, as is the case for all guns? It is possible that they could also be used for the other planned Greek ships. I make my guns from white metal alloy because that's what I work with. Resin will definitely work too. Attached is a photo of earlier gun casts. The 3 Dutch guns were built from wood. Plastic or brass would be better here. the British 4 pounder shown on the right was built from polystyrene. All were cast in white metal alloy. These are great ideas. Ares had, in theory at least, 12 pounder long guns. You are right, turning these guns individually cannot work, they need to be casted or made in that fashion. I'll try to calculate all the deck guns that I need for all the 1/144 models, then decide along these lines. I dont think I have any skills yet to even approach casting things myself.. Chapman and Keith Black 2 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted June 8 Share #34 Posted June 8 George, I work at 1:120 and have ordered 1:125 naval figures from Shapeways, they're a good company. They make a 18th century cannon in 1:125, 0.096" (1:144, 0.083") this is .013 inches greater than your 144. They're a bit spendy and the size isn't quite right but it's the closest I could come up with. https://www.shapeways.com/product/B4G38YSST/18th-century-6-cannon-naval-carriage-1-125?optionId=300722641&li=marketplace Drawing I found while looking about, didn't know if you had it. CiscoH, Ian_Grant, GrandpaPhil and 1 other 4 Quote Current Builds: 1870's Sternwheeler, Lula Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: 1880s Floating Steam Donkey Pile Driver Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archjofo Posted June 11 Share #35 Posted June 11 Very clean and precise work, and at this scale. You have my full admiration for that. This will be an extraordinary and wonderful model. GeorgeKapas, mtaylor and Keith Black 3 Quote Best regards Johann Video: La Créole - Scale 1/48, French corvette of 1827 - naval artillery La Créole - Scale 1/48, French corvette - Construction of long boat La Créole - Scale 1/48, French corvette - Construction of the masts La Créole - Scale 1/48, French corvette - 2019 La Créole - Scale 1/48, French corvette - standing rigging - part 1 La Créole - Scale 1/48, French corvette - standing rigging - part 2 La Créole - Scale 1/48, French corvette - standing rigging - part 3 See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted July 26 Author Share #36 Posted July 26 Alright, I'm back. Unfortunately, there is a big jumb in the construction process. The procedure was very tiresome, as I am terrible at painting model ships. I therefore used the whole affair as a learning experiment. The amount of back and forth correcting mistakes tested my patience... At least I tried different methods, airbrush, wash, drybrushing, pencils, highlighting, whatnot. Added the guns and their ropes and the rest of the deck fittings. But I took few photos last month, so we go straight to the result.... First one for scale: Keith Black, Ronald-V, dvm27 and 7 others 8 2 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted July 26 Author Share #37 Posted July 26 Used pencils for planking Ronald-V, Rudolf, mtaylor and 4 others 7 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted July 26 Author Share #38 Posted July 26 ΑΡΗΣ , Ares in Greek Ronald-V, shipman, Rudolf and 6 others 9 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted July 26 Author Share #39 Posted July 26 The closeup at the bow shows most of the pencil work. shipman, wefalck, Ronald-V and 6 others 8 1 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted July 26 Author Share #40 Posted July 26 The rest of the deck. So the gun barrels and the wheel came from the parts pile, as for the rest of the deck, I am very happy with the result and its layout, all things considering mtaylor, shipman, Ronald-V and 10 others 5 8 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiscoH Posted July 27 Share #41 Posted July 27 beautiful work! Keith Black and GeorgeKapas 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronald-V Posted July 27 Share #42 Posted July 27 Fantastic stuff! Especially at this scale 😮 Keith Black and GeorgeKapas 2 Quote Currently working on the HMS Sphinx from Vanguard Models Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccoyle Posted July 27 Share #43 Posted July 27 I really like it when not only is a model's workmanship top-notch, but its color palette works together wonderfully as well, resulting in a superb aesthetic. Well done! Keith Black, GeorgeKapas and Ian_Grant 3 Quote Chris Coyle Greer, South Carolina When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk. - Tuco Current builds: Brigantine Phoenix, Bf 109E-7/trop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted July 27 Author Share #44 Posted July 27 Thank you ccoyle! Yes exactly, I mean, the way one finishes and colors his model is subjective, but this painting like asthetic pleases me, so that was the result. Always wanted to do it, with Mahmudiye I couldn't, but now I feel it is better. Keith Black 1 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted July 27 Share #45 Posted July 27 She's a little jewel, George. Very pleasing to the eye. GeorgeKapas and Ian_Grant 2 Quote Current Builds: 1870's Sternwheeler, Lula Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: 1880s Floating Steam Donkey Pile Driver Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wefalck Posted July 31 Share #46 Posted July 31 On 7/26/2024 at 10:51 PM, GeorgeKapas said: The closeup at the bow shows most of the pencil work. Cute little model she is and well done 👍🏻 When you referred to 'pencil work', did you mean shading with a pencil around details? Keith Black, GeorgeKapas, shipman and 1 other 4 Quote wefalck panta rhei - Everything is in flux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted August 3 Author Share #47 Posted August 3 yes, but mostly drawing the planks on the hull with black pencil and then passing over them again softly with white pencil for a more 3d effect. Its subtle, the model is small and one has to inspect it from very close to notice tbh wefalck, Rudolf and Keith Black 3 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted August 25 Author Share #48 Posted August 25 Good morning! So the rigging process has progressed. I have been trying to improve the accuracy of my rigging work with this model, but the scale and the small size of the model is a bit of a hindrance. The current state of the rig is as follows: shipman, Tony Hunt, CiscoH and 7 others 7 3 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted August 25 Author Share #49 Posted August 25 I have taken a lot of closeups with quite the zoom, but these photos are from a phone, so I did my best. ccoyle, mtaylor, shipman and 6 others 8 1 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted August 25 Author Share #50 Posted August 25 The side pinrails. I added a single test knot, they will go over the rest of the pins. shipman, ccoyle, Ian_Grant and 7 others 9 1 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted August 25 Author Share #51 Posted August 25 Bofore I continue with more details, I have a serious problem, and a guestion I wanted to ask here in the forum.... So I put the pinrails where they are. trying to get the running rigging properly set, I felt that passing the sheet and cluelines of the topgalland and royal through the opening of the fighting top and then to the side pinrails was rather bizzare. I run these ropes straight to the pins down, right next to the backstays. Is this wrong? I have seen some books like the "anatomy of the ship- bounty" that does that, others books dont show it like that. I hope I make sense, two more zoomed photos to show this better: Keith Black, mtaylor, Rudolf and 5 others 8 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted August 25 Author Share #52 Posted August 25 Posting a few more closeups: this time the bowsprit: mtaylor, Keith Black, wefalck and 7 others 8 2 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted August 25 Author Share #53 Posted August 25 shipman, mikegr, wefalck and 6 others 8 1 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted August 25 Author Share #54 Posted August 25 more closeups on the foremast. wefalck, Keith Black, JacquesCousteau and 6 others 9 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Black Posted August 25 Share #55 Posted August 25 Fantastic work, George. I work at 1:120 so I understand the issues you have working at 1:144. You did an excellent job selecting the blocks for their placement due to size. GeorgeKapas and mtaylor 2 Quote Current Builds: 1870's Sternwheeler, Lula Wood Hull Screw Frigate USS Tennessee Decorative Carrack Warship Restoration, the Amelia Completed: 1880s Floating Steam Donkey Pile Driver Early Swift 1805 Model Restoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Grant Posted August 25 Share #56 Posted August 25 (edited) On 8/25/2024 at 4:05 AM, GeorgeKapas said: Good morning! So the rigging process has progressed. I have been trying to improve the accuracy of my rigging work with this model, but the scale and the small size of the model is a bit of a hindrance. The current state of the rig is as follows: George, astoundingly neat work especially at that scale! It doesn't look like you were "hindered". 😉 As to the upper sail rigging, it would make sense to me to pass ropes through the lubber's hole IF their pins were inboard of the shrouds. Windjammers did this and had fairleads along the shrouds to prevent loose ropes from tangling with each other. But if the pin is aft of the shrouds then to me it makes sense to run the lines straight as you have....why have them rubbing the edge of lubber's hole? Edited September 15 by Ian_Grant GeorgeKapas, mtaylor and Keith Black 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted August 25 Author Share #57 Posted August 25 26 minutes ago, Keith Black said: Fantastic work, George. I work at 1:120 so I understand the issues you have working at 1:144. You did an excellent job selecting the blocks for their placement due to size. Indeed!! We have to reduce a lot of the rigging details at such scale. Making thes kind of dicisions is sometimes harder than following rigging instructions 14 minutes ago, Ian_Grant said: George, astoundingly neat work especially at that scale! It doesn't look like you were "hindered". 😉 As to the upper sail rigging, it would make sense to me to pass ropes through the lubber's hope IF their pins were inboard of the shrouds. Windjammers did this and had fairleads along the shrouds to prevent loose ropes from tangling with each other. But if the pin is aft of the shrouds then to me it makes sense to run the lines straight as you have....why have them rubbing the edge of lubber's hole? Thank you Ian! Because the limited number of schrouds and the gunports breaking up the continuity of the bulwark, the aft pinrails went further aft than usual, I really wanted to hear the opinion of the fellow modelers, before doing anything I would regret. Today I spend most of the time rewaxing the lines, as the tiny blocks had fizzed them up a bit. Oh well.. Here is one for scale: mtaylor, Tony Hunt, JacquesCousteau and 6 others 8 1 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeKapas Posted August 25 Author Share #58 Posted August 25 The additional waxing helped. Again, the scale is so small I am not sure it is even noticeable in real life to anyone other than me. Some of these details will be covered by the sails that I plan to add, but I still dont know how to streamline the process, since this is my first time that I have gone that far. Rudolf, Keith Black, mtaylor and 5 others 7 1 Quote Current scratch builts: Greek brig Ares - 1/144 Greek frigate Hellas - 1/144 -Soon Greek corvette Loudovikos - 1/144 - Soon Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/144 - Soon Greek ship of the line Emmanuil - 1/144 - Soon Completed scratch models: Ottoman Ship of the Line Mahmudiye - 1/350 - scratchbuilt 17th century Venetian galley by GeorgeKapas - 1/350 - scratchbuilt Armored cruiser Georgios Averof - 1/700 - scratchbuilt Greek steam sloop Karteria - 1/350 - Soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wefalck Posted September 20 Share #59 Posted September 20 A couple of weeks ago I had, during a business visit to Athens, the opportunity to visit the Hellenic Maritime Museum in Piraeus. They have a 1/50 scale model of the ARES on display: I think your small model compares quite favourably with this model, which is three times the size! Rudolf, ccoyle, Keith Black and 2 others 5 Quote wefalck panta rhei - Everything is in flux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Grant Posted September 20 Share #60 Posted September 20 3 minutes ago, wefalck said: A couple of weeks ago I had, during a business visit to Athens, the opportunity to visit the Hellenic Maritime Museum in Piraeus. They have a 1/50 scale model of the ARES on display: I think your small model compares quite favourably with this model, which is three times the size! Is that the museum which has "Olympias" on display? Keith Black and mtaylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.