Help with tapering

[N1ckel]

I’ve looked at many videos and read many docs but I’m still a little lost. 
 

(Building the HMS Brig Badger)

 

the instructions say don’t taper plank 1, but taper the rest at the bow. It also says don’t bent or force the planks, just let them lie to assess the taper - but my issue is a straight plank is really hard to figure out the taper needed, pre-bending the plank makes it much easier to assess if tapering is needed, but it’s still a bit of a swag. 
 

Would it be better (as per some of the videos here) to pre-measure and mark a set taper amount for all the planks rather than try and guess by trying to bend planks to see what taper is needed? I feel like a standard amount of taper for every plank might give a more consistent result.  
 

Thoughts and advice 

 

[tmj]

You really do need to taper your planks, in most situations, to produce a first-rate build. It's not that difficult. Below is part one of Chuck Passaro's four-part series of planking hulls, found on his YouTube channel. Watch all four parts and then enjoy planking your model!  

 

 

[N1ckel]

I watched the video and tried to follow it but that did not go well at all 😬. Chucks advice on bending a curve into the plank did work really well in helping the planks lay flat on the bulkhead, but I was not bold enough on how tapered the planks should be. I get the process with the tick marks on the bulkheads, but what should the taper width be at the right up at the stem? I kind of guessed with half a plank width as but I don’t think that was enough. 
 

luckily I have a 2nd planking so I can try and do better 2nd time around and hide this mess. 
 

I have learned a lot doing this, and sometimes you just have to have a go and learn… 

[Gregory]

A good start might be to read about setting up the garboard.

The half hull planking project is a good reference for establishing the garboard and planking in general.

I borrowed this image from the Half Hull Project.  The blue area is the garboard.  The red tick marks show the width and number of planks at a mid-ship bulkhead.  In this case there are ten.  Which may or may not be the actual number of planks.  I am just trying to illustrate. 

 You then have to measure the distance indicated by the green line.  This is the space available for the same ten planks at the bow/stem.

Lets say that the planks are 4mm wide, so the  area at the red tick marks would be 40mm.  Lets say the green line measures 30mm.   Divide 30 by 10 and you have 3mm.

 

So, your planks need to taper from 4mm at mid ship to 3mm at the bow.

 

Chances are you won't have the same  easy measurements, but I hope the illustration helps.

 

[N1ckel]

17 hours ago, Gregory said:

A good start might be to read about setting up the garboard.

The half hull planking project is a good reference for establishing the garboard and planking in general.

I borrowed this image from the Half Hull Project.  The blue area is the garboard.  The red tick marks show the width and number of planks at a mid-ship bulkhead.  In this case there are ten.  Which may or may not be the actual number of planks.  I am just trying to illustrate. 

 You then have to measure the distance indicated by the green line.  This is the space available for the same ten planks at the bow/stem.

Lets say that the planks are 4mm wide, so the  area at the red tick marks would be 40mm.  Lets say the green line measures 30mm.   Divide 30 by 10 and you have 3mm.

 

So, your planks need to taper from 4mm at mid ship to 3mm at the bow.

 

Chances are you won't have the same  easy measurements, but I hope the illustration helps.

 

Yes that’s useful thanks. My challenge is the bow is more slanted on my model so it’s not to easy to measure the front “green line” and divide by the number of planks, but it’s useful to know this is the theory - thanks!!

[Gregory]

 

 

1 hour ago, N1ckel said:

it’s not to easy to measure the front “green line”

Measure the green line with a piece of string.

[Ronald-V]

1 hour ago, N1ckel said:

Yes that’s useful thanks. My challenge is the bow is more slanted on my model so it’s not to easy to measure the front “green line” and divide by the number of planks, but it’s useful to know this is the theory - thanks!!

Maybe this topic helps with that...also posted a photo there from my HMS Sphinx, where I let a piece of paper/card follow the curve at the bow

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/36721-how-to-measure-and-line-off-at-the-bow/

[N1ckel]

41 minutes ago, Ronald-V said:

Maybe this topic helps with that...also posted a photo there from my HMS Sphinx, where I let a piece of paper/card follow the curve at the bow

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/36721-how-to-measure-and-line-off-at-the-bow/

That’s really useful thanks!! 

[N1ckel]

Ok another question - if you know what the taper width is at the bow, and what the plank width should be at midship, why not just draw a straight line between the two and not bother with the tick marks on the bulkheads in between? Is the line really curved ever? 

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

56 minutes ago, N1ckel said:

Ok another question - if you know what the taper width is at the bow, and what the plank width should be at midship, why not just draw a straight line between the two and not bother with the tick marks on the bulkheads in between? Is the line really curved ever? 

  When I planked Vasa, I tapered BOTH edges the way barrel staves are tapered (apparently you can 'get away' with a curved taper on one side) ... for can't a ship hull be compared to an oversized barrel?  This is NOT a 'straight' taper, but one that is curved (also like a barrel).  But the lines of the ship's hull vary from zone to zone, more complicated than a barrel.  So just drawing a straight line will give you thin gaps ...  you need the 'tick marks' to give you the needed width at each bulkhead (or frame).  If just drawing a straight line from max to min width worked, Chuck would have made the video that way.  Believe me, he knows what he's doing.

[Dziadeczek]

1 hour ago, N1ckel said:

Ok another question - if you know what the taper width is at the bow, and what the plank width should be at midship, why not just draw a straight line between the two and not bother with the tick marks on the bulkheads in between? Is the line really curved ever? 

 

This line is NOT straight! Place a barrel horizontally on the ground and compare the run of it's staves against the flat ground. You'll see that they curve. The hull is similar to the open-ended barrel, so you'll have to properly shape (spile) each plank to fit into these gradually narrower and narrower toward the bow and stern, spaces.

[Gregory]

Good answers from Johnny and Dziadeczek.

 

Just to clarify, here is a contemporary  ' expansion drawing.  This is Podargus (1808)

 

This shows the actual shape of the planks laid out flat. This illustrates why Chuck's bending method results in the planks laying flat against the bulkheads

[mikiek]

Good idea doing your garboard first. It's critical to get that one mounted correctly. If you you have too much curve in it every strake above it will also take on that curve.

 

Also to make life easier and your entire bow more symetrical, when you shape a strake for one side be sure to make a duplicate right then and there for the other side. That way you only have to figure out shape one time.

[N1ckel]

Thanks all, makes sense. I’m frustrated at the instructions with the Badger that says do the tastier with a straight metal rule, but gives no details about where to begin the taper and how much to taper. I will definitely use all the advice above. 
 

testing one of the guides it says not to taper a plank more than 1/2 the plank width. Do folk find this to be the case? 
 

thanks all for the help

[Gregory]

I believe the 1/2 rule has a basis in actual practice.  However,  if you follow  the procedures we have discussed, it probably will never be an issue. 

[N1ckel]

So I’m looking at the 2nd planking and dividing the whole area into 4 belts - does this look right? I’ve used string to mark the 4 areas, and I’ll use tape strips at each bulkhead and mark tick strips dividing each area by the number of planks. At the bow each belt is roughly 10mm with 4 planks in each,  so that will mean 2.5mm at the narrowest taper. 
 

am I thinking about this in the right way? Anyone see anything wrong with my approach?

 

thanks all!!

 

nick 

Edited July 29 by N1ckel

[Dziadeczek]

I would first start with carefully placing (glueing) a wale (levels taken from plans at each bulkhead), to establish points of reference. And only than I would subdivide the hull below this wale into symmetrical 'belts' using thin battens temporarily glued to the edges of bulkheads. Spaces above the wale generally don't need planks tapered, so tapering (spiling) applies to the hull below the wale.

Edited July 29 by Dziadeczek

[N1ckel]

Quick update for folks, I did a ton of measuring, marking tick lines etc and the first set of planks still didn’t seem to fit well. I then thought it was my cutting so I tried sanding the taper instead of cutting and it went much better   
 

[Ronald-V]

17 hours ago, N1ckel said:

Quick update for folks, I did a ton of measuring, marking tick lines etc and the first set of planks still didn’t seem to fit well. I then thought it was my cutting so I tried sanding the taper instead of cutting and it went much better   
 

 

Once I have measured the taper I then use a (small) woodplane to remove most of the material and finish it off with a sanding block. Also to get a smooth transition from the tapered part to the unworked part

Edited August 4 by Ronald-V

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  Perhaps using less wide (simulating scale) planks might help. An 8" plank (about 200mm) would be 2mm wide at 1:100 ... and 2.7mm wide at 1:75 (3mm would be fine).  

[No Idea]

Hi Nick - Sorry I should have read this thread earlier.  This is how I carry out the planking process which has always served me well.  Firstly I firmly believe that if you can mark out and draw every single plank then you can make them too.  I literally spend days marking out to get a good look with the correct spacings too.  I use automotive tape so that I can see and adjust the runs of each strake and I like to do this after I have placed the garboard strake.  Just for clarification a strake is simply a length of planks all joined up which run from stem to stern.

 

Doing this work up front first makes seeing the individual planks easy when it comes to actually making them.  There are very very few parallel planks on a ship and it's also very time consuming but so satisfying when you get it right.  I also only bevel one edge of a plank which for me is always the top side of the plank.  I leave the bottom of a plank square.  That way the next strake meets a square edged plank and I cut the bevel to suit.  I have put loads of words down so here's a picture that explains what I mean.  If you don't plan it from the start you will be chasing each and every plank which is a nightmare.

 

 

[Loracs]

@No Idea,  thanks for the illustration.  It help so much at explaining your point.  This is what I try to do, and it is indeed quite time consuming.  However, the end result speak for themselves.  I need more practice, since I'm still at my first build.

 

Another thing you're doing is very useful.  Doing the treenail as you go (or marking them). They can be carefully aligned to follow the curvature of the frame.  I give up on hull treenail because I could not easily align then precisely after the fact (once planked completely).   BTW the one you show are SOOOO nice.

 

This is the same for the plank-to-plank joins across the hull, they can be positioned far better to the middle of a frame (even if you don't see them at the end).  Seen easy... yes if you do single frame planking, not if you're using a double planking approach to your built.  The frames are underneath the first planking, and out of view. I struggled with that.  I'm planning on marking the center of each bulkhead on each first level plank in the future.

Edited August 4 by Loracs

[N1ckel]

3 hours ago, No Idea said:

Hi Nick - Sorry I should have read this thread earlier.  This is how I carry out the planking process which has always served me well.  Firstly I firmly believe that if you can mark out and draw every single plank then you can make them too.  I literally spend days marking out to get a good look with the correct spacings too.  I use automotive tape so that I can see and adjust the runs of each strake and I like to do this after I have placed the garboard strake.  Just for clarification a strake is simply a length of planks all joined up which run from stem to stern.

 

Doing this work up front first makes seeing the individual planks easy when it comes to actually making them.  There are very very few parallel planks on a ship and it's also very time consuming but so satisfying when you get it right.  I also only bevel one edge of a plank which for me is always the top side of the plank.  I leave the bottom of a plank square.  That way the next strake meets a square edged plank and I cut the bevel to suit.  I have put loads of words down so here's a picture that explains what I mean.  If you don't plan it from the start you will be chasing each and every plank which is a nightmare.

 

 

Thanks so much for this, that’s really helpful.

 

One of my biggest challenges is the bow / stem. It’s very curved on my model so decisions how to divide up the planks seems really odd, and you could end up with tiny tapers right at the front. Should I look to use drop planks?

[GrandpaPhil]

Yes, and stealers.  I used them on my Revenge and they looked really good.  It seems really difficult, but after the first few, it gets easier.

[ERS Rich]

Hi,

 

For better control, suggest, doing the taper with a small block plane upside down in a small vise.  Make sure the plane iron is sharp.  Mark the bulkhead locations, work from left to right, plane from the first mark to the left end, second mark to the left end, etc. 

 

When the plank lies flat on the bulkheads you are there.  
 

In a belt, try to have all the planks the same width at each bulkhead location.

 

You did do a good job…..keep going!

 

Edited August 5 by ERS Rich

[N1ckel]

Did a lot of work and it didn’t turn out too bad 😊 thanks for all the advice, much appreciated 

[N1ckel]

I’ve done a ton of sanding - any advice on telling the walnut before painting / varnishing?