Help with depicting extra line on bitts

[usedtosail]

So the problem I have yet to find a solution for is how to show excess line for lines that are tied to bitts? On lines on belaying pins a rope coil is used but what do you do when a line is tied around a bitt? On the Vanguard Speedy model there are many lines tied to the fore bitts as you can see here. In the photos in the Instruction book they show the lines just cut off at the bitts so no excess line is shown, which to me is not realistic.

 

 

I tried running a rope coil down each line but there are too many of them to have that many rope coils hanging off the bitts. What I settled on was to run the individual lines down to the deck and put rope coils over the ends.

 

 

There are less coils than there are lines but I think it depicts things OK. I doubt that on a real ship there would be piles of rope laying around on deck so I am really curious how you other modelers have dealt with this issue. Thanks.

[popeye2sea]

I think the problem is that your rigging and belaying plan has led you astray.  There were, more than likely, belaying pins or a fife rail for all of those lines.  Those bitts are primarily for the anchor cable.  There may have been belaying pins set in between the uprights of the bitts.

 

Regards,

 

Henry

[Gregory]

It would be interesting to know what some of those lines are and what something like Lees' has to say about them.

[usedtosail]

Thanks guys.

 

Henry - I just followed the plans that came with the model for these lines. There are belaying pins with other lines on them but not enough for the lines shown on the bitts.

[usedtosail]

Here is a photo of how David Lester finished these lines on his beautiful Speedy. I must say it looks much cleaner than mine by not showing the extra line for the lines on the bitts. This is the only photo I could find of this area of a completed Speedy build.

[GGibson]

On 11/11/2024 at 5:14 PM, popeye2sea said:

There were, more than likely, belaying pins or a fife rail for all of those lines.  Those bitts are primarily for the anchor cable.  There may have been belaying pins set in between the uprights of the bitts.

 

Regards,

 

Henry

 

I like the idea of some hooks or belaying pins on the bitts.  Would be interesting if we could find some pictures showing how the rope is hung or set.  Great question, Tom!

[Gregory]

I'm still curious as to what some of those lines are.  I can't imagine a lot of working lines wrapped around the bitts like that, regardless of where the extra rope would lay.

[Dziadeczek]

Here is a pic of what these details look like on the "Surprise" in San Diego, although I am not sure if these are bitts or fife rails, since several belaying pins are visible through the beams...

[paul ron]

its mind boggling how much rope is on deck when in operation. i cant imagine walking on deck in a storm or rough seas without tripping n cracking your head open. then to think how many men are aloft rocking n rolling hanging on for dear life.

 

but it does look great on our models!

 

 

 

 

[wefalck]

... that's why everything has to be tidied up as quickly as possible 😉

 

I would not call this 'extra' or 'excess' lines. Each rope has to be long enough to pass through the tackle in its most extended position, plus 'extra' (here it is justified) length for a sufficient number of men to haul on it. 

 

On a model, one would measure this total length, install it, belay it, secure it with a drop of varnish, and then cut off the length beyond the belaying point. This length then is coiled up appropriately and hung with one loop over the belaying pin. It is a good idea to wet the coils in situ with a bit of thinned varnish and hold it down in a most natural drape as possible, while the varnish dries.

 

You can see this clearly on the right side of the fife-rail behind the mast of SAN DIEGO in the above photograph. In this way the line can be cast loose very quickly and many coils can be arranged next to each other.

[TBlack]

Tom, So far there doesn’t seem to be an answer to the issue. I’m facing the same problem with my Sophie build which is an alteration of Speedy. Hope someone comes up with an answer.

Tom

[wefalck]

Allow me to disagree. Unless everyone here misunderstood the question, I think all the answers are there.

 

The problem may be that lines are not normally belayed on bits (see post #2 by @popeye2sea, unless the bits are provided with belaying pins. 

 

If that belaying point were correct, there may be a somewhat haphazard solution in coiling up the rope in a 'bunch' and wedging it between two lines coming down. That would be relatively secure. On yachts such bunches are commonly wedged between the mast and say its haliard coming down onto a clamp.

Random image off the Internet of a rope tied up to a bunch.

 

However, such a method would be more time-consuming to cast off, as first the bunch has to be untied. One would only use this for lines rarely moved.

 

[Gregory]

1 hour ago, TBlack said:

Tom, So far there doesn’t seem to be an answer to the issue. I’m facing the same problem with my Sophie build which is an alteration of Speedy. Hope someone comes up with an answer.

Tom

Can you name some of these lines?   No one has bothered to do this so far.   With that information we might be able to find out more about how they should be rigged.

[TBlack]

Gregory, They are bowlines, sheets and clews. Here is the plan view:

Given this information, maybe Lester's solution is the best one

Edited Wednesday at 08:39 PM by TBlack
more information

[usedtosail]

In the rigging plan for this model, which is spread out over 4 different plan sheets, there are 23 individual lines attached to the fore bitts. I'd have to go back to the plans to identify all these lines, but for sure they include all the sail lines - buntlines, clewlines, some of the bowlines, sheets for the topsails and topG sails, and braces. There are no belaying pins associated with any of the bitts and there would not be enough room for 23 pins on them anyway.

 

So I'll break this down into a couple of questions. If, as many models do, there were just 2 lines tied to the bitts, with no belaying pins, how would the working end of the line be shown? Maybe a coil that hangs on the ends of the bitts?

 

The other question is what to do when the instructions for the model show many lines on the bitts like this one? What is more incorrect, showing the lines cut off at the bitts or showing rope coils on the deck? Both seem wrong to me. If the model tried to include enough belaying pins along the rails for all these lines there would not be enough room by a lot. Would having multiple lines on individual belaying pins be acceptable? There would have to be three or four on each pin for this model to fit them all.

 

Getting philosophical here, I guess it all comes down to resolution and fidelity of the modeling process. We can only show a depiction of the real ship at whatever scale we are working on and have to make choices about what to show and how to show it. The model designer gives us a starting point, but it is up to us to work out the best depiction at the modelers skill level and comfort zone.

[wefalck]

I would toss those plans, don't look at what other modellers did, but go back to period written sources and perhaps period models (cum grano salis) in order to work out the proper lead of lines and a proper belaying plan. To me this seems to be the only reasonable solution.

 

BTW, it is not uncommon that two lines that would have to be worked at the same time would go onto the same belaying pin.

[TBlack]

OK, Tom, here's more information. This time from Delf's log of Speedy. The following pictures are from his log, page 23 You can see that he has mounted coils on the bitt at the foremast and coils on the hatch at the main. Maybe that's the way to go?

Tom

[Gregory]

4 hours ago, TBlack said:

Gregory, They are bowlines, sheets and clews. Here is the plan view:

Thanks for replying.

 

Well, Lees is a little complicated, or at least a little longwinded for me to quote everything here.

I would like to see what others have to say before I get too deep into quoting Lees.  

My cursory reading doesn't show as may lines going to the bitts as I see here.

 

I noticed in looking at the pictures of the prototype It doesn't appear there are as many lines leading down to the bitts as in the images up above.

Your plan view appears to have fewer lines also.

[Dr PR]

Someone will have to explain to me how the lines would work if they were wrapped around the horizontal part of the bitts. Think about it. even if you had only one loop around the bitts the entire length of line would have to be pulled through around it. This would have to be repeated for every turn around the horizontal piece. This would take forever, and could never be used at sea! It looks pretty silly to me.

 

Has anyone seen a period model or photos of a period model (or a modern replica ship) that had lines tied off like this? Has anyone read a period rigging book that described belaying lines like this? Is there any reference for this???

 

The first photo in Lees Masting and Rigging (after page 37) of a model of the Breda shows two small lines wrapped around the horizontal beam of bitts at the base of the main mast. It looks like one of them is a fall from a runner block. Or it might just be a small line used to secure a larger line to the bitts.

 

Some of the lines could be belayed to eye bolts in the deck behind the bits. But most of the lines that belay at the base of a mast are falls from tackle, often from blocks belayed to eye bolts in the deck at the base of the mast. But when they are belayed to eye bolts they are distributed around the base of the mast so it is easy to distinguish each line - they aren't bunched together as in the Speedy model photos.

 

Until someone can provide a period reference for this practice I will remain skeptical.

 

 

[wefalck]

I fully agree with @Dr PR ...

 

Belaying lines that have a constant load on them on these horizontal bits shows actually a lack of understanding of the functioning of belaying. As long as you keep the running end under tension, the friction on a belaying-pin, cleat or bollard from half to one turn of rope is usually sufficient to carry the load. This fact is used to safely undue the belaying. The final turn and half-hitch are only there to secure the rope when there is no tension on the running end.

 

Assuming that a line comes running down from the mast, it woul have to go either a quarter turn or one and a quarter turn around the bit in order to arrive in a position from which you can pull on it. A quarter turn is not sufficient and one and a quarter turn is too much to be workable. When belaying, you would need to take the running end around the horizontal bit again to form a clove hitch, which is very difficult to do under such conditions.  A clove hitch would be more or less the only hitch the works under such circumstances, but is difficult cast off, when there is tension on the ropes. So, from a practical point of view this is a no-no.

 

Again, rather than copying the mistakes of other modellers, it is better to undertake some research oneself. I realise that the literature, both the contemporary and modern works, are weak on belaying points. However, there are certain common practices in any one country that do change much from ship to ship. Seamen were transferred from ship to ship and had to quickly find their way around a new ship and you cannot 'try' several ropes to find the right one at sea. So on all ships certain types of ropes were belayed more or less at the same location. This may vary, of course, depending on the rig and the size of the ship.

 

[Gregory]

Determining how the falls were arranged at the bitts is a moot point if that is not where they  should be.

 

Referring to what TBlack said above regarding bowlines, clews and sheets , I’m pretty sure the bowlines ran forward to the bowsprit then back to the forecastle area.  The sheets rove through sheaves In the bulwarks then to kevels or cleats on the bulwarks.  I’ll have to re-visit the clews.

 

[usedtosail]

Thanks for all the great responses here. First of all, I agree that this whole arrangement of lines on the bitts is not historically accurate.

 

BUT if one follows the plans as they are shown, can we still come up with a more realistic representation of the lines on the bitts. I set up a simple test rig and tried some different ways to add rope coils. Here is the test rig.

 

 

I first added rope coils like you would put on a belaying pin to each line before tying the line to the bitts. I alternated the sides that the lines were tied so the rope coils on adjacent lines were on opposite sides of the bitts, providing room for more coils. You can see this on the two right lines of this picture. My rope coils suck so don't judge me on them, but I think this looks pretty good. It does require that the coils are added as the lines are tied, not after like with belaying pins, so some planning is needed before rigging is started.

 

 

Then I tried adding a rope coil to a line that was already tied to the bitts, which is the line on the left in the above photo. I just ran the excess line through the rope coil and tied another knot. This worked OK too but would probably have to be done before fixing the first knot so the line is still flexible.

 

I then looked for a way to add rope coils after the lines are all tied on the bitts and maybe even cut off flush with the bitts. I tied a single line to one end of the row of lines, then wrapped it around the bitts between each line. For each wrap I slid a rope coil onto the line.

 

 

Then when the wrap was tightened, I adjusted the coil to one of the sides of the bitts, again alternating sides with each wrap. I tied off the last wrap back to itself. Again I think this looks OK but could be pretty tricky depend on how accessible the bitts are.

 

 

I am not going to try these on my Speedy at this point but I hope this whole discussion helps future modelers.

[usedtosail]

4 hours ago, Gregory said:

Referring to what TBlack said above regarding bowlines, clews and sheets , I’m pretty sure the bowlines ran forward to the bowsprit then back to the forecastle area.

 

Gregory - these bowlines are from the main sail so they go forward to blocks on deck before the fore mast then back to the fore bitts on this model.

[wefalck]

Of course, it your model and you can do whatever you like to it. But be aware that others may follow bad examples as you are about to do.

 

Rather than making test-rigs for historically inaccurate arrangements, the time would have been better spent on doing some research.

 

Sorry for being a bit blunt and harsh, but I just cannot understand, why people are so obstinate to follow down an obviously wrong path.

 

This plan view copied from above is obviously only a partial view and, as we don't have the plan, we don't know what the numbers refer to. However, the lines leading to nos. 58, 59 and 60 lead to some dots on the horizontal member of the bit, that I woud interpret as holes for belaying pins. If you drill some holes here and install some pins, you may not have necessarily historically correct solution (which would need to be confirmed by resarch), but at least one that is technically correct ...

 

[Gregory]

1 hour ago, usedtosail said:

 

Gregory - these bowlines are from the main sail so they go forward to blocks on deck before the fore mast then back to the fore bitts on this model.

Then that makes it difficult for anyone to provide advice about how it should be done with regard to common/actual practice.

 

It’s not just a matter of historical accuracy it’s also a matter how the rigging works efficiently for the control of the sails and the men handling the ropes.  The basic principles haven’t changed for hundreds of years.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 06:06 PM by Gregory

[usedtosail]

2 hours ago, wefalck said:

Rather than making test-rigs for historically inaccurate arrangements, the time would have been better spent on doing some research.

 

Sorry for being a bit blunt and harsh, but I just cannot understand, why people are so obstinate to follow down an obviously wrong path.

Welfalck my model is finished. I could do all the research I want now but I can't change it without undoing almost all the running rigging and I am not going to do that.

 

SO future builders of the Vanguard Speedy kit, don't do what I show, but completely redo the belaying plan that comes with the kit and build new a whole new fore bitt with lots of belaying pins or add a lot more pin rails along the sides or put many lines on each belaying pin that is there now. Or just cut the lines at the bitts and be done with it. Your choice.

Edited Thursday at 07:55 PM by usedtosail

[TBlack]

At this point it might be nice if Chris Watton would weigh in.

[GGibson]

21 hours ago, usedtosail said:

I set up a simple test rig and tried some different ways to add rope coils. Here is the test rig.

 

I do like your single arm helping hand and its base, Tom!  I've got the 4-arm model with the yellow base, but the single arm style would also have some practicality! Especially if it were a longer arm.

[usedtosail]

TBlack - I couldn't agree with you more. Chris?

 

Gregg - If you haven't figured it out yet, that is one of the magnetic arms removed from the yellow base and stuck to a 123 block as a base.