Venetian Carrack or Cocha by woodrat - FINISHED - 1/64

[Louie da fly]

Far too late for that. I left sanity behind long ago - why else would I be into ship modelling?

 

But I might just put the build log up anyway.

 

Steven

[woodrat]

Showing the building of the halfdeck accommodation. Note that I have left space at the side for the mainmast standing rigging which will be internal to the bulwarks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers, Dick

Edited December 26, 2017 by woodrat

[Louie da fly]

Dick, you never cease to amaze me. That's a beautiful job.

 

Steven

[GLakie]

Really nice job on a truly unique ship! 

 

Cheers

[woodrat]

Thanks, Geoge. Here are some contemporary illustrations of carracks which show what I based my quarterdeck accommodation on. Note the space in front of the mizzen mast to allow for rigging to be handled.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dick

[GLakie]

It's amazing to watch this one being built, since definitive records and plans are almost non-existent. I think your depiction is as about as close as anybody could get, all things considered. Very nice! 

 

Cheers

[cog]

Astonishing. Some real nifty and beautiful woodwork!!

[kees de mol]

I like your woodwork very much

[Krelis]

interesting research and glad I live in the age of foiling cats

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Rit72ePAus#t=54

Edited April 28, 2015 by Jan B.

[Louie da fly]

I dips me lid, Dick. That is seriously beautiful work. If I can get to that kind of standard, I'll be very happy.

 

And every time I think there couldn't be any extra pictures of carracks, you come up with more!

 

Wonderful stuff.

 

Steven

 

 

 

Jan B. Not to derail the thread, but those flying cats are just amazing.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Louie da fly

[woodrat]

Thank you Jan, Carl,Kees, George and Steven. Hovering cats are amazing, yes but not as romantic as the creaking old argosies of the middle ages. Romance aside, however, life would have been smelly, wet  and uncomfortable for all on board!

In regard to the wooden framing, in the venetian and other italian shipyards, the upper works and accommodation were built by house carpenters brought in by the shipyards. Hence the methods used would have been less nautical and more domestic. At sea, the wooden framing would have coverings of tarpaulin and other suchlike removable shelter. Particularly on the sterncastle this would have been necessary to reduce windage on the very tall structures.

Dick

Edited April 29, 2015 by woodrat

[Krelis]

sorry, yes, I would not want to derail the tread, I was a reflex to those outer ribs and the sense of immense drag, I mean, after a centuries of boat evolution it looks like an immense hydrodynamical set back and makes me wonder - with all due respect for your excellent woodwork, craftsmanship and unique research :-) - if you have not overdone them a bit, I mean, looking at the historical pictures it appears they end quite narrow and well above the waterline ?  

[woodrat]

Thanks, Jan for the feedback. I do like this sort of constructive criticism. I cant claim to have got it right but it seems to me the people who built the Trombetta nave , a very large ship for its time, were less concerned by its speed through the water than with strengthening the hull so it didnt fall apart. There was a great variability in these "futtock riders" and they often go almost to the midpoint of the hull. I did make an attempt to taper them at their lower end. Maybe not enough, who knows?

This is the original illustration of the Trombetta nave which I have followed.

even the modern reconstruction of the Matthew shows these rather bulky futtock riders extending to the waterline ( or below it were the ship to heel at all

many of the contemporary illustrations seem to have been made either of a ship model or of a ship out of water. They seem to show much more of the hull than would be seen in a ship in the water.

If this ship was really afloat it would be sitting much lower and the external bracing thingies would be partly below water!

Cheers

Dick

Edited April 29, 2015 by woodrat

[GLakie]

It doesn't appear to have much draft. 

[Louie da fly]

Well, if as Dick says many the pictures are taken from ships out of water (or sitting in dock empty) this would be understandable - the artists simply got the position of the waterline wrong.

 

Looking at the picture immediately below the photo of the model seems to me to show a more likely position for the waterline. And other contemporary representations, though they do seem to be riding fairly high, show a more realistic waterline position.

[Louie da fly]

The other thing is that perhaps many of the ships pictured were portrayed as the artist saw them, in harbour, empty except for ballast, waiting for a cargo. Carpaccio's St Ursula carracks certainly seem to be riding high enough in the water for this to be so, and probably several others.

 

Steven 

[woodrat]

 I have decided to have two knights to raise the yard which would have been heavy and will make a capstan to assist.

 

Here is an illustration from the Trombetta manuscript showing, I believe, a knight in situ. Other people have suggested that this is a person but this is clearly not the case

 

 

 

 

Cheers

Dick

Edited June 5, 2015 by woodrat

[cog]

Dick,

 

Nice detail, didn't know about those knights ... another learning moment

[woodrat]

I have decided to redo the knights as they are impractical.

Edited June 4, 2015 by woodrat

[NenadM]

I think you can change now your nick name from wood-rat to wood-art

 

Great work!

[woodrat]

Sorry Nenad. I just had to change the knights to more practical models. I think this looks more workmanlike if not so artistic

 

Dick

[woodrat]

present state of the build.

 

 

 

Dick

 

 

[CaptainSteve]

Nice work, Wood-Art !!

(I'm a fan of Nenad's idea.)

[GLakie]

Very nice!  I agree with Steve! The design of these older ships has always intrigued me.

[woodrat]

Thanks Cap'n Steve and George. A lot of the deck machinery and quarterdeck/ poop accommodation is just educated guessing based on the limited contemporary illustrations available. There are no plans available as ship design was kept secret. Unfortunately the little archaeological evidence there is consists mainly of hull remnants usually only up to turn of bilge. I have a little more work on ladders, doors and poop/forecastle accommodation before I can start on the masting and rigging which will be fun,I think. Dick

[Louie da fly]

Dick, I realised I hadn't complimented you on the most recent pictures of the nave tonda. She looks magnificent. Haven't heard from you for awhile. Are you still working on the ship? 

 

I just came across a good picture showing a careened carrack in Carpaccio's Meeting of the betrothed from the St Ursula cycle. Zoomed up to full size it loses a bit of detail, but it's pretty damn good. It's at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Departure_of_the_Pilgrims_by_Carpaccio then you click on the picture for a huge copy of it.

 

And I just noticed, at the bottom of the same page there are thumbnails of other details of the same picture showing not only a much better detail of the same carrack, but very good detailed pics of the other carracks in the same harbour, and two others I'd never seen, apparently in dry dock, from the left hand side of the painting.

 

The careened carrack's rigging, and the way it's being held in place, are also very interesting.

 

Right down the bottom of the page are links to the other paintings in the Ursula cycle, some of which have exceptionally detailed representations of ships.

 

Best wishes,

 

Steven 

Edited October 3, 2015 by Louie da fly

[woodrat]

Thanks, Steven. Great pictures which demonstrate what a great marine artist Carpaccio was. The detail is extraordinary. These pics confirm my belief that the forecastle was much narrower than many models depict and that the lapstrake planking below the forecastle has a distinct tumblehome which I have tried to depict in my model.

as

I have not done much the last few months as I have been shifting my workshop which, as you know, takes up most of the time available for modelling. I am trying to work out a way to construct the mainmast which was made up with many spars shaped and lashed together over a central mainspar. I could just turn it in one piece, I suppose. How is the dromon cross section going?

Dick

Edited October 16, 2015 by woodrat

[cog]

Dick,

 

Stumbled upon a few pictures from another member here: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/2461-amazing-photographs/page-260#entry352400 maybe interesting as well. Build looks stunning for something with that little good reference material.

 

Cheers,

[woodrat]

Thanks, Carl. The square transom of the nao Victoria reconstruction dates it to early sixteenth century about 80 years after my ship. It does show well the type of vessel used by the portuguese and spanish in the great age of exploration. Look how small it is! Cheers. Dick

Edited October 15, 2015 by woodrat

[Louie da fly]

 

I have not done much the last few months as I have been shifting my workshop which, as you know, takes up most of the time available for modelling. I am trying to work out a way to construct the mainmast which were made up with many spars shaped and lashed together over a central mainspar. I could just turn it in one piece, I suppose.

 

How is the dromon cross section going?

Dick

Moving a workshop is a large operation. No wonder we haven't heard from you lately.

 

The mast issue is certainly a bit of a puzzle. I looked at it when I was making my Great Harry many years ago, but ended up just making a single-piece mainmast. If I did it today I'd probably want to go with multi-piece, but I have no more idea than you of how to do it.

 

The dromon design is going slowly. I've pretty much given up on the cross-section, and I'm working on redesigning the full vessel in accordance with the Yenikapi discoveries in Istanbul.

 

The problem is when you change one thing, everything else is affected. Changing the shape of the section affects the height of the waterline, which affects the position of the lower bank of oarsmen, which in turn affects the height of the upper bank, which then affects the height of the midships castle . . . and I’ve recently got a new job which involves using AutoCad eight hours a day designing houses, so when I get home it’s a bit hard forcing myself to the computer to open up AutoCad to work on a ship design . . . I’ll get there eventually, but it does rather stretch things out. I’m going to add an update to my dromon thread to show how things are going.

 

Steven