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Martin W

HMS Fly by Martin W - Victory Models - 1/64

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I like what you're doing Martin, and it will all come good in the end.

I am a bit surprised that you couldn't find anything to simulate the window glass, Railway and Aircraft modellers tend to use these products regularly, but  success  in their application is another story.🙄

To my eye unglazed windows can look a bit dead, and even opaque ones look better than nothing.

 

Wishing you joy in your post pre-retirement year.☺️

 

B.E.

 

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I agree with you, BE, the unglazed windows have as much life as unglazed windows in a house.  I looked online and in Model Expo for any kind of product, and ran into a dead end.  Probably I was using the wrong search term.

 

Simply recognizing that this will be the final year has already made it go slower, my colleagues less charming, and my stomach acid more plentiful.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Hi Martin, your stern is really coming along nicely.  Great job!  I'm planning to carve the items as well.  The PE pieces are fantastic, but I think carvings not only provide more of an accurate 3D representation, but also add a lot more charm and character to the build (at least they are for your Fly - we'll see what happens when I get to carvings on my Pegasus).

 

The quarter pieces are what scare me.  Do you know if those face outwards at a 45 degree angle?  I haven't exactly figured out how to set them along the stern.  All I know is that the hanging quarter pieces is the one glaring error of the Amati kits.  That being said, I like the quarter pieces and other stern details for the Fly a lot better than those of the Pegasus - going to be hard to carve a beheaded Medusa.  The NMM plans are a little incomplete too when it comes to the pilaster ornamentation.  I might have to borrow from the Fly plans to fill out the rest of the ornamentation. 

 

1135457198_Stern-NMMplans.JPG.2e3b17121ec2ebedf4b4079c79a87605.JPG

 

 

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Thanks Bob.  Now that I have an actual brand name to search for, I should be able to find it.

 

Mike -- thanks for the nice words, though I 'm not convinced yet that jealousy is appropriate.  As for the carvings, those Medusas on Pegasus do look intimidating (ahem!), though their size might make carving the facial features more of a possibility than the smaller figures.  FFM's advice of starting out with a model in clay would really help to determine what's feasible.

 

And I'm not sure yet about the angle of the quarter pieces.  On NMM's Fly plans, they look to be facing fully aft.  I had sort of envisioned notching them onto the planking to give them stability.  Though that would violate the need to have a space between them and the bulwark.  I actually haven't started on anything yet (beyond tracing the figures from the plans and gluing them onto some stock), because I'm fiddling with the mullions of the windows.  But once I get a pair of clay models (very rough) done, I hope to be able to figure out the placement.  And, natch, I'll follow the usual best practice of going back to several Swan build logs.  I recall that BE resolved the issue with some Knight figures.  

 

Thanks for checking in.  And thanks to everyone who clicked the like button!

 

Martin

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I so admire those who can create carvings, but my attempts on Pegasus  ended in abject failure. The figures are so small and I simply couldn’t get down to size using either wood or fimo.  By any stretch of imagination what resulted  hardly represented classical figures of Greek mythology.

I was saved by a Preiser set of 1:87 scale ‘Adam and Eve’ figures which I was able to convert into passable representations of Perseus(complete with Medusa’s head,) the Princess Andromeda, and  Athena and Poseidon, all associated with the Gorgon legend.

The decoration is of course all conjecture and even the decoration shown on the Admiralty plans is probably just artistic licence,  I doubt the Navy Board would sanction such expense for a humble sixth rate.

Still I look forward to admiring the work of those with more resolve than me.😊

 

B. E.

 

 

 

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A brief update.  Starting on the lower quarter pieces, I've mostly been making adjustments to my approach.  As always, I started with a clay model that served to answer just a few questions, like how the angle of the legs should align with the angle of the shoulders. 

 

DSCN3777.JPG.92613becac490493239c92e59e503ec4.JPG

It's pretty much in the range of the Pillsbury Doughboy, but it served its purpose.  At least up to a point.  As I began to think about actually putting knife to wood, other questions arose, like how to fix the different heights of the various lines formed by arms & legs, not to mention the dogfish curving through the legs.  Since I'm one of those guys who ruin lots of wood, I have plenty of scraps lying around.  I grabbed the one closest to hand and tried working out some of the issues by way of prototype.  This is unfinished, so lots of the details are mere blurs, but this gives you a blurry idea of where I'm headed:

 

DSCN3794.JPG.48e47e9544040b25456072f5b387a24a.JPG

 

DSCN3795.JPG.3c0326859b2635020005b79dfb929d00.JPG

 

There's a dogfish that will extend from Her Royal Knee down to Triton's curly head.  And of course, the real teaser remains that dogfish weaving its way through Triton's legs.  Oh, and as far as I can make out from the NMM plans, he's holding a small polyp in his hand.  And I can say up front that I can't imagine even dreaming of hoping to carve something that intricate that would be about 1/16 of an inch.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

 

 

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I've effectively completed the two quarter piece carvings.  I feel that I've been working on them continually, but looking at the date of my last posting, I have to wonder.  Ok, I threw out three versions for three different reasons, so maybe starting over and over took some time.

 

Here are some views:

 

DSCN3829.JPG.796fbfbb3d70b983d6b12a1eeb843d1f.JPG

 

 

DSCN3831.JPG.b6d38b1611a4dc60e48785fa35d45edb.JPG

 

DSCN3834.JPG.0955a4723ff09f96838d1f794eaa0128.JPG

 

DSCN3832.JPG.72dcd5bb1a5193ed6600d8b4eaedea73.JPG

 

Each of them has its own strengths and weaknesses.  I tried to follow the advice in FFM of doing the two together, but each one took its own route.

 

Looking at the pictures, I wonder where all the detail that I spent so long has disappeared to.  Hmm, I was sure it was there.  Uh oh, and now I've begun to notice other issues that I don't recall having ever seen before.  Time to look away!

 

As I've mentioned before, I have no idea how to attach them.  The lower pieces (yet to exist) will provide a kind of basis, and the dogfish coming down from above might also, but they still seem to be pretty much just in the air.  A basic gluing seems insufficient, but do I really want to drive a pin through Triton's head?

 

Cheers,

 

Martino lento

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks BE, those are encouraging words.  I'm not sure these little carvings will ever match the meticulous skill you bring to the craft, but I did enjoy making them.

 

Thanks to everyone who checked in -- it's always nice to know you folks are still interested in my desultory work.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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I like them also Martin - very nice!!  

 

I'm a little curious where you come out on how to install them.  I think we had discussed this on your log a while back, but it's hard to tell from the plans how they sit.  They almost seem (at least on the Pegasus) to angle at like a 45 degree angle outward, so not fully square with the stern or fully square with the side of the ship, but sorta in between.  Pinning would probably be the safest thing, but maybe you can run a pin from the figures' backs?  Or pin them into the lower decorations which themselves are pinned in securely?

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Hi Martin

This is a very special Fly you are building and will be an unique piece of art. Desultory work? Many of us hobby model builders seem to be a bit overcritical when judging our own work. But I say that you should not judge a finished model by every single little detail (which may sometimes leave a little room for improvement) but by the overall impression - which will be great in the case of your Fly.

(Of course I repeatedly say the piece with the overall impression to myself to overcome the frustration with my own botched details.)

Cheers

Peter

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Thanks for checking you guys.

 

Peter -- Those are very nice comments that I'll carry with me to the boatyard for many nights.  I recently heard a famous woodworker say that the difference between an amateur and professional is that when someone compliments the amateur he begins to list all the faults of the piece, and when someone compliments the professional he just says, thanks.

 

Mike -- I like your idea of pinning these figures from the back.  That would prevent having to drill a hole all the way through.  Last night I spent my whole modelling time sketching possibilities for the lower pieces, and working out the connection between them and the upper quarter pieces.  My plan is to make a sort of L joint (technically, a lap joint I suppose) that the dogfish head would fit into and that would give gluing surfaces at the bottom and the back.  So the two points of support would be the pinned head of the Triton, and the pinned & glued head of the dogfish.  We'll see how it goes.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Ha ha!  Thanks, Doug.  The difficulties might also be thought of as intriguing questions, like, hmm, can I do this?

 

Thanks for checking in.

 

Martin

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Thanks, Ron, glad to have you check in.  Seeing the attention to detail you put into your Oneida has always inspired me.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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So, it's been some four months since I updated here.  Well, I have been working at it, but, in my usual fashion, which mostly means making a piece, scrapping it, making it again, realizing it was even worse than the first version, and so on.  My problem in this case had to do with the fact that the lower quarter piece had the size & shape restriction, it needed to support the upper quarter piece, and at the same time it needed to allow the upper piece to stand slightly away from the bulwark.

 

I decided to follow the pattern I showed above of the Kraken/Squid/Monster, and to make it pretty much of a round carving instead of a relief.  The latter option prevented me from showing any detail at all, and it caused problems with the requirement of supporting the upper quarter piece.

 

At some point, after carving a fair version and working out a few ideas, I realized the trailing legs needed to look interesting from three different angles, which meant that I had to make each leg look separate from the others, without losing any strength.  Carving that detail -- of the separate trailing legs -- took a surprising amount of time for the simple reason that they kept breaking, so I had to start over.

 

So here's the result:

 

First straight on of the Stern in its entirety.

 

1153513244_SternQuarterPieces1.JPG.293f5686d2f6d5b6a558f18296812a55.JPG

 

And next is the view from starboard:

 

392165251_SternQuarterPiecesStarboard.JPG.b936291ac856b0bf9a0bfa5a8d791774.JPG

And the same from slightly forward, to show the separation of the trailing legs:

 

68155980_SternQuarter_10.JPG.26388fdb5b47fd8bcfd7e8c579f5272a.JPG

 

The very tail of the legs revert to a kind of relief, and that's because the tips of the legs broke off too many times to leave them as a round carving.  I'm hoping that after I apply the poly that will be less obvious.

 

Next is starboard from below:

 

770001491_SternQuarter_11.JPG.6078b6a7add5592dca8ad87542c10343.JPG

This image might be a bit confusing, but what you're seeing is the head of the dogfish that twirls around the Triton's legs (its eye is mostly what you see), and below that is the Kraken/Squid's lower jaw and trailing legs.  So, here you can see the separation of the legs.

 

And next is the Port version:

 

1690582102_SternQuarter_15.JPG.95721ea183272686cd61d01ea29396f8.JPG

And with this, you can see how far the upper quarter piece stands out from the bulwark of the stern:

 

1076593482_SternQuarter_17.JPG.fbffd2ea27618390e4dcbd661263f73e.JPG

 

As for the fastening:  I used 2 pins, one connecting the Triton's head to the tafferal, and another connecting the Kraken/Squid's head just below the horns. 

 

And in shaping the lower piece, I tapered it on the outer surface so that the outboard side of the mouth is the farthest distance from the bulwark and the outboard side of the tip of the trailing legs the closest; and I tapered the inner, gluing surface just the opposite way, with the trailing legs close and the mouth far.  In that way, the gluing surface of the inside surface of the Kraken/Squid remains flat but angles the entire carving outward.  And even though I think the Kraken/Squid's "head" (they don't really have heads, after all) is a touch large, I am reasonably satisfied with the appearance of Curvaceous Baroque Ornamentation and delicacy/bizarreness.

 

There's a covering board that goes over the tafferal, followed by the rail running along the tops of the turret mounts (forget the name).  And those are up next, before I take on the challenge of the quarter badge.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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Good to have news from the prairies Martin and pleased to see that you are still chipping away.

I couldn't come close to producing those figures within the size constraints you have to work.

 

Keep at it.

 

B.E.

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Thanks for checking in, GrandpaPhil -- what are you working on?

 

Having taken the stern decorations about as far as I can, and then finishing off a few other details, I think it's time to turn to the Quarter Badge, something I feel a bit intimidated by.   I've looked over as many builds as I can think of, and I'm pretty well torn over whether to try the slightly rounded version or to take the safer route and put flat badges on.  It's pretty much impossible to tell if the NMM plans show a rounded or flat badge for the Fly, so either way would stand an equal chance of being historically accurate.  FFM notes usefully that even the rounded version should not extend outward any farther than the quarter pieces, which on my build would limit it to 3/8 inch.  With the decorations, that would be essentially flat.

 

Here's a tracing from the NMM plans to show the rough placement of the badge (I've actually placed this much too high):

 

545001046_SternQuarter_28.JPG.5d865b1ba199a0fb0a3d452d0114d2ff.JPG

 

This tracing doesn't show the decorations, just the general outline. 

 

I'm leaning toward the flat version.  And that then raises the question of whether to cut out the pieces and then apply carved decorations, or to cut the pieces from thicker stock and carve the decorations into them  (I'm also thinking that Plain is Good).  There's also the question (perhaps a bigger question) of the three lights:  there's only one window cut into the hull here, and because of the furnishings in the Captain's Cabin I can't cut any more.  So I'd have to simulate lights with black paper or something.

 

Any suggestions or guidance would be more than welcome!!

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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I am in the final stages of the Prince de Neufchatel.

 

You did an excellent job of the stern.  How ever you decide to make the quarter galleries, I don’t think that you’ll have any difficulty.

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Your model is too good to put on a flat decoration instead of a quarter gallery.  I compared the quarter gallery on Fly with Atalanta.  The only differences are the details of the carvings and the angle of the center bank of windows.  I assume you have TFFM Vol.2.  Follow David's instructions and you should be fine.  Also, take a look at Bill Maxwell's Fly on the Admiralty Models site.  It gives a good perspective of the depth of the structure.

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Hey Martin, your Fly looks fantastic!  For what it’s worth, I would go with a more rounded quarter badge.  I just personally prefer that look to a flat one.  Also, it seems with all the enhancements you made to the stern, a flat quarter badge would look out of place.  If you had done the stern with the built up kit PE pieces, then the flat quarter badge would give a consistent look.  With a more rounded stern, I’d think a more rounded quarter badge would look better.

 

All that said, a rounded quarter badge will take a lot more work.  I started building the pieces for my Pegasus, but got a little stuck trying to figure out how to do the top part and incorporate the two dogfish design.  But I have faith in you - if you can do the stern as great as you did, the quarter badge will be no sweat for you.

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Hi Martin

 

Great work!

 

I hate to say it but I would go with a rounded side badge. As I understand both versions exist in contemporary sources but for me the 3 windows panel setup only makes real sense if you build a small, conservatory like glass house to give the skipper some forward view from his cabin...

 

Cheers

Peter

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Hi Folks -- Thanks for all the kind words and for the encouragement.  You're a great bunch, and I have to say that you've convinced me to have a try at the rounded version.  And let me say further that the reason is that I know each of you understands first hand what it means to test your skills.

 

Peter -- Your logic of giving the skipper a view makes absolute sense.  It's one of those insights that seem perfectly obvious when someone points them out.  Cheers.

 

Mike -- I'm right there with you:  it's the angle of the whole design, and lack of actual symmetry that has had me biting my lip.  But I think if I keep the decorations to a minimum, a bare minimum, maybe even just the glimmer of a thought, I could work out the curves and angles.  The key, I think, will be lining it all up with the angle of the stern.  (Gulp.)

 

Toni  -- Your advice seems sound, and couched in such generous is irrefutable.  I do have FFM 2, and have used it to shape the (first version) of the lower stool on the starboard side.  Holding it in place helps me see that even at a light 3/8" it could be a bit too proud.  I think I might do a mock-up off-ship and see how it looks in terms of scale, integrations, and so on.

 

Grandpa Phil -- The Prince will always hold a special place in my heart, because it was my first build.  And, OH! the fits it gave me.  But it's also what led me to MSW, so it was all good.

 

The bad news is that the weather here in Oklahoma has been strangely pleasant (apart from the minor detail of 3 floods in 2 weeks).  So, it's been a bit hard to confine myself in the windowless boatyard (which doubles as a safe room and beer storage).  But the Quarter Gallery has become a problem to be solved, so I'll be thinking of it at the very least even while I'm outside wondering if this could really be June on the Prairie.

 

Cheers to all, and I'll post regular updates of my various efforts.

 

Martin

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Hello Everybody -- This isn't an update, but rather a question.  As I work on the quarter badges, I wonder about how the windows are going to look.  The hole I cut way back when for the window is far too small, and rectangular, to fill out the 3 lights.  I'm thinking of painting the area covered by the quarter badge black, so that the lights won't show the boxwood/castello planking.  Any thought, recommendations?

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

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