HMS PRINCE by AMATI

[pirozzi]

Hi Everyone,

Amati used to make a kit of the HMS Prince. If you know anyone, or if you have it in your stash and want to sell it, I am very interested. Also, if anyone knows where to possibly get one, I would be greatful.

 

Thanks,

Vince P.

[Rich.F]

Hi, I found this, made by Mamoli.

 

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/Mv80.html

 

hope this can help

[pirozzi]

Hi, I found this, made by Mamoli.

 

http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/Mv80.html

 

hope this can help

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the response. I am aware of the Mamoli kit. While I like their kits and have built some, their Prince is a 1:144 scale, which is too small to my liking. The Amati kit was something like 1:64. Constructo makes one in about the same scale as Amati did, but I like the Amati kit for its better detail. If I can't find an Amati, I will get the Constructo kit and add the detail myself.

 

Thanks,

Vince P.

[Rich.F]

Either way, good luck vince,

[NMBROOK]

Hi Vince

I have the amati plans,all parts are still available,just not in a box.The casting set is actually fairly inexpensive.Part numbers for other fittings are given on the drawings ,these again are currently listed in amati's catalogue.You would have to source the timber and scrollsaw the frames out.There are about 27 frames on this model!!

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

Edited April 2, 2014 by NMBROOK

[Jaager]

If you are going to use the plans for Prince from a Euro kit, there is a factor to check.

 

A while back, I was investigating 17 century vessels.  It was just after Dean's Doctrine was first printed. I ran thru the exercise of designing a ship based on the directions in the book.  In that era the length of a ship was based on "touch". Essentially, this is the part of the keel that actually touches the baseline.  At a later time this was changed to "length between perpenticulars" or "length of gundeck" (which is essentially the same thing).

The reported length of Prince would be based on touch.

The plans seem to have used that value as though it was LBP.  The plans as drawn are forshortened by not including the radius of the stem and the cant of the stern.

[NMBROOK]

Hi Jaager

I asked Chris Watton about the original Amati plans and he confirms they are not accurate. Subsequent investigation by myself revealed they are miles away from the builders model.Because of this I an awaiting to see if Chris's prototype goes into production at some point.

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

[pirozzi]

Hi Vince

I have the amati plans,all parts are still available,just not in a box.The casting set is actually fairly inexpensive.Part numbers for other fittings are given on the drawings ,these again are currently listed in amati's catalogue.You would have to source the timber and scrollsaw the frames out.There are about 27 frames on this model!!

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

Thanks much, Nigel. I assume you can go to their website and order the plans and parts?

 

Vince P.

[NMBROOK]

Hi Vince

To be honest,I am not sure as the parts are so easily available in the UK.You will have to buy the plans first in order to compile the list of fittings.There is a table of quantities on the drawings for the fittings if I remember correctly.If you have any difficulty,you may find it easier to order items from either Cornwall model Boats or the model dockyard in the UK.One UK retailer many years ago did offer a complete package including timber after the kit was discontinued,I think it was the model dockyard but it is many years ago now and can't be sure.Nick Tomkin is a very helpful chap,you can always drop him an email,I dare say he would be able to advise if he did and still can sell you the complete package.

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

[NMBROOK]

Hi Brian

 

To be honest I am still in a quandry as to whether I should build the model.The hull is a fair size being 1/64 scale and the castings are very nice.Whilst there are some inaccuracies historically,the model if far,far superior to the Constructo version.On top of the castings there are many decorative brass sections to purchase.These come in lengths and are cut to suit.It is worth googling Amati Hms Prince,there are many images online.

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

[Spiderpig]

Hi Vince

 

I am currently building the Constructo version. It's not that bad, but I have seen the old Amati version, and it does look much nicer. I found a build log on another site of someone who is scratch building the Amati version. You can still purchase the plans. I believe Cornwall Models has them.

 

http://www.modelshipbuilder.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?3709

 

Check this link out and see the model for yourself. As mentioned by NMBROOK, it does have 27 frames! But looks fantastic!

 

Cheers Adam

[pirozzi]

Brian,

I had the same concerns.The numbers don't add up. The Constructo hull should be well over 1000mm long at that scale.

Vince

[mtaylor]

Since when has any of the Continental manufacturers ever got the scale right?  My observation is they put the scale the box they want with little to no bearing on what's in the kit.

[NMBROOK]

Hi All

When Prince was rebuilt into Royal William,her hull was both lengthened and widened.This was commonplace for the British Navy at the time and ships were rebuilt using a rule of proportional scale.I won't elaborate on the theory,I have a book covering the calculations used and it covers many pages.

 

See the wiki article with dimensions here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Prince_(1670)

 

Interesting to see she had 3 rebuilds the last in 1756 which reduced the then Royal William to 80 guns.

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

[chris watton]

A new version of the Amati Prince will be released one day...

 

 

 

Just need Amati to cut my new designs.....

Edited April 7, 2014 by chris watton

[NMBROOK]

I hope you get the opportunity to finish this kit development Chris.She will make a stunning model.Can I be really cheeking and ask your point of reference for the hull lines.I have done preliminary investigations which have yielded nothing.The NMM don't list anything on their website and other plan offerings are as dubious as Amati's first attempt re accuracy.I actually think the most accurate kit produced was the plastic airfix example.I had one many years ago and trying to find one on ebay is not easy,they are as rare as hen's teeth now.

 

Kind Regards 

 

Nigel

[chris watton]

I hope you get the opportunity to finish this kit development Chris.She will make a stunning model.Can I be really cheeking and ask your point of reference for the hull lines.I have done preliminary investigations which have yielded nothing.The NMM don't list anything on their website and other plan offerings are as dubious as Amati's first attempt re accuracy.I actually think the most accurate kit produced was the plastic airfix example.I had one many years ago and trying to find one on ebay is not easy,they are as rare as hen's teeth now.

 

Kind Regards 

 

Nigel

 

Hi Nigel,

 

I actually used the lines taken directly off the original dockyard model - I think these are about as accurate as we're going to get for the Prince. I then used all of the Van De Velde drawings that exist for most of the outer detail and parts which conflicted slightly with the original model (which was probably made before the actual vessel was launched, by which time a few changes were probably made - like the small protruding gallery at the stern)

 

I re designed from the original about 10 years ago, and that is what the model above is based - but a couple of years ago, I re designed it again to take into account newer techniques I use now - I am just waiting for these new designs to be cut for me.

 

[Keith_W]

Wow Chris, she is beautiful! What scale are you thinking of releasing her in? 

[chris watton]

I will ask Amati when I can 'slot' this one in (have got three developments on the go right now..) - it is frustrating for me, as it happens to be my all time favourite ship - I love the lines and curves, and it's not half as 'gaudy' as SOTS - and it has a great history. Just checked my design files - I re did them in 2011, to more or less the same designs as Victory and Bellona, with lower, middle and upper gun decks - and gun port positions that slot into the bulkheads, rather than the old and flawed ply gun port patterns.

[AnobiumPunctatum]

@Chris

 

If not, perhaps it is possible to publish your drawings. The Prince is allways a very fine ship to build a model.

[chris watton]

The drawings are not mine to fully publish. Amati own them as they paid me for the designs. It would be very unprofessional and reckless in the extreme to publish them without the permission of the owners - and there would be nothing to stop unscrupulous people copying them and then calling them their own.

Edited April 8, 2014 by chris watton

[NMBROOK]

Thanks Chris and I totally agree,the dockyard model is the ideal point of reference.Did you actually take them off the model yourself?It would be interesting as to know the whereabouts of this model now in light of the science museum closing the display.I do remember the original development of your model and the adverts in the UK mags stating coming soon I guess a lot is dictated to you by Amati and obviously they have the final say as to what they want when.As you will be starting with almost a blank sheet of paper again,do you think there is any mileage in suggesting to Amati to produce this one in 1/48?As mentioned earlier in this thread,the Prince was substantially smaller than Royal William and even at 1/48 I should imagine will still not be as large as your forthcoming Victory.

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

[chris watton]

Thanks Chris and I totally agree,the dockyard model is the ideal point of reference.Did you actually take them off the model yourself?It would be interesting as to know the whereabouts of this model now in light of the science museum closing the display.I do remember the original development of your model and the adverts in the UK mags stating coming soon I guess a lot is dictated to you by Amati and obviously they have the final say as to what they want when.As you will be starting with almost a blank sheet of paper again,do you think there is any mileage in suggesting to Amati to produce this one in 1/48?As mentioned earlier in this thread,the Prince was substantially smaller than Royal William and even at 1/48 I should imagine will still not be as large as your forthcoming Victory.

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

 

The plans I used were actually drawn years ago and were purchased from the NMM, so I didn't take the lines off the model myself. All you do get is hull lines (including bulkheads) - but for the new designs I did, there weren't enough bulkhead lines in the plans, so I had to add a few myself.

 

The plans were 48th scale, and trust me, the model would be way too big for this scale. At 64th, I find it a perfect size, although perhaps a little too large for some modellers - the hull is a lot larger than say, the Vanguard kit and only smaller  than the 64th scale Victory (about the same depth/height, but obviously a little narrower and shorter, with Prince being 100 years older). I don't think the original Prince would have been substantially smaller than Royal William - but also you have to treat with caution the stated scales on older Italian kits - the original Amati Prince was stated as 78th scale, but my new designs have the length almost the same at 64th as the stated 78th scale original (although there's so much wrong with the original it shouldn't even be called Prince - hull shape and profiles are very different). I am sure the Italians used to use 'ballpark figures' for scales...

Edited April 8, 2014 by chris watton

[NMBROOK]

An interesting point regarding the old Amati plans.I have these,albeit more recently printed and have always understood these to be 1/64 scale.I will check,but I am sure no scale is stated on the plans,but neither can I remember where this scale was mentioned  The scale isn't even listed in Amati's catalogue.As you say it can be assumed that this is the correct scale,just the fact that the hull is incorrect in many aspects.

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

Edited April 8, 2014 by NMBROOK

[pirozzi]

Hi Vince

 

I am currently building the Constructo version. It's not that bad, but I have seen the old Amati version, and it does look much nicer. I found a build log on another site of someone who is scratch building the Amati version. You can still purchase the plans. I believe Cornwall Models has them.

 

http://www.modelshipbuilder.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?3709

 

Check this link out and see the model for yourself. As mentioned by NMBROOK, it does have 27 frames! But looks fantastic!

 

Cheers Adam

Hi Adam,

Thanks for the link.

 

Vince P.

[RonvanLeeuwen54]

Hi Adam,

Thanks for the link.

 

Vince P.

Hi Vince, I'm new on this forum but I read your topic. I'm am also building the Constructo version 1:61 and for this price, about € 300,- it is not a bad kit. The wood, drawings, plans and sails are good quality. The But my challenge is to take such a simple kit and "drive it in to the ground". I found this website  http://www.milebijelic.com/?page_id=4. As you see its a Croation builder. I found the quality of this ship unbelievable and for me my goal to approach this quality. This means that i have to create a lot of ornaments myself because the Constructo kit is not even close to this beautiful ship. But thats the sport. Okay, when its finished the price will be dubbled but it will be something special.

Here is a picture how it is at this moment.

Maybe you can follow my topic on http://www.modelbouwforum.nl/forums/bouwverslagen-historische-schepen/203279-bouwverslag-h-m-s-prince-1-61-constructo.html

 

Ron

[pirozzi]

Hi Vince, I'm new on this forum but I read your topic. I'm am also building the Constructo version 1:61 and for this price, about € 300,- it is not a bad kit. The wood, drawings, plans and sails are good quality. The But my challenge is to take such a simple kit and "drive it in to the ground". I found this website  http://www.milebijelic.com/?page_id=4. As you see its a Croation builder. I found the quality of this ship unbelievable and for me my goal to approach this quality. This means that i have to create a lot of ornaments myself because the Constructo kit is not even close to this beautiful ship. But thats the sport. Okay, when its finished the price will be dubbled but it will be something special.

Here is a picture how it is at this moment.

Maybe you can follow my topic on http://www.modelbouwforum.nl/forums/bouwverslagen-historische-schepen/203279-bouwverslag-h-m-s-prince-1-61-constructo.html

 

Ron

Hi Adam,

Thanks for the link. His ship is fabulous. Do you know if it is the Amati setup, or is it a scratch build. The decorations are great and I wonder if they are the Amati set.

 

Thanks,

Vince P.

[Spiderpig]

I have seen that Prince from the Croatian builder. She is a beauty! I often look at my Prince and wish I made some changes to her. But maybe I'll build her again in the future. I have heard talk of Amati re-releasing her sometime,but I'm not sure when.

 

Adam

[RonvanLeeuwen54]

Hi Adam,

Thanks for the link. His ship is fabulous. Do you know if it is the Amati setup, or is it a scratch build. The decorations are great and I wonder if they are the Amati set.

 

Thanks,

Vince P.

Hi, you can read on his site how he made it. http://www.milebijelic.com/?page_id=4#contentBox

Completely from drawing which he had from the Londonmuseum of Science. Took him 5 years. This man is awsome,

[aferox]

That is indeed one awesome build! I can hardly wait for the new Prince by Chris. Looks like it will be fantastic.