Jump to content

Beavers Prize 1777 by Mike Y - 1:48 - POF - Hahn style


Recommended Posts

A picture of my Beaver’s prize model.

 

Recently , I compared the historical plan from the London museum with Hahn plan.

The breadth on the body plan is not the same. Hahn plan has a larger breadth: +4mm .

By the way, the distribution of the cant frames (aft) seems to be wrong. 
 

Congratulation on your model. Framing is superb.

IMG_5072.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hahn was very clear that his models were stylized and did not reflect actual framing  practice.

 

Also, the plans you show are of completely different ships. The upper one is Beaver's Prize dated March 1778 and the lower one is Beaver of 1757 - a French privateer.

Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series  http://trafalgar.tv

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Both shared the same history. This cant frame distribution is just an example. I checked other plans too. Cant frame distribution follows specific rules. On average the last cant frame (aft) has an angle much sharper than on Hahn plan. 
Beaver (1761) is not a french privateer but an english sloop designed by Slade, based on the shape of the french fregate Aurore.

Beaver framing is english with cant frames. French ships had no cant frames.

Beaver prize was taken by this Beaver sloop 🙂

Edited by Curieux
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Curieux, so nice to see another Beaver's Prize build! Hope you can start a build log and share your progress (even retroactively, it is interesting to follow the old build steps even if it you are much further into the build by now).

I see you are building the pre-modification version?

 

Yes, Hahn frame is a styling choice and does not follow the real practice, so both of our cant frames are incorrect :)  We can refer to the same period Swan class that is greatly documented in the TFFM book series to see the proper practice.

 

Would like to see more photos, hopefully not only the finished model. Really like your unpainted railings, but hard to see anything else from this angle. 

 

 

 

Edited by Mike Y
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Hi Michel,

 

No, your model is quite awesome! You should really start the log and post more. There is always some other log that looks better, that is not an excuse :)  And we all are masters of finding flaws in our models, so it's never perfect...

 

Have you built yours out of the Lumberyard "timbering package" or entirely from scratch (plans only)? Haven't seen any Lumberyard based build logs, frankly... Would be very interesting to see!

The scrolls under your quarter gallery look laser cut, so that's why I thought about a package :) 

Edited by Mike Y
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Either I start again the same model (without mistakes) or the HMS Beaver itself. In both cases, we have no framing plan (my guess, see photo).


HMS Beaver => french design but english built. Slade , the best english naval architect, was very keen on french design.

 

 

Date : 1770

IMG_3537.jpeg

Edited by Curieux
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah, the midship frames from Kingfisher. For the first. Ships of the class the frameing design, which was introduced with Cygnet is not correct.

I am busy with another Swan Class Fly. For this ship the Cygnet design is with some small adjustments possible.

Regards Christian

 

Current build: HM Cutter Alert, 1777; HM Sloop Fly, 1776 - 1/36

On the drawing board: English Ship Sloops Fly, 1776, Comet, 1783 and Aetna, 1776; Naval Cutter Alert, 1777

Paused: HMS Triton, 1771 - 1/48

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." Salvador Dali

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

This framing plan was published in 1770. That is why it could be useful for the Beaver framing (1761) or the Beaver’prize 🙂
 

Floor timber shoud be around 10 inches , sided (No scale indicated on the plan).

 

I should check with the size of the gun ports.

Edited by Curieux
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think so. In my opinion is the purpose of the drawing to show the differences between the standard frameing sheme (doulble frame followed by two single frames) and the sheme which was used for Kingfisher in the midship area. Interesting is also the triple frame midships.

Regards Christian

 

Current build: HM Cutter Alert, 1777; HM Sloop Fly, 1776 - 1/36

On the drawing board: English Ship Sloops Fly, 1776, Comet, 1783 and Aetna, 1776; Naval Cutter Alert, 1777

Paused: HMS Triton, 1771 - 1/48

"Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it." Salvador Dali

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1766, an other triple frames

 

before 1770’s  double frame was more common.

 

By the way, Beaver’s prize was built in America. Double frames seems to be a more normal practice there. 
Before being converted to a privateer, she was a merchant’s ship. 

 

IMG_0615.jpeg

Edited by Curieux
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Now it's time to build magazines and all sorts of decks and beams. For that phase an accurate depth gauge is essential, so I've let my brain overthink yet another tool :)

 

The requirements are:

1) Soft plastic or wood to avoid scratching the model

2) Nice looking and pleasure to use, that tool would be in active service for at least a decade.

3) Ideally it should have a thumbwheel or a knob for fine adjustment. 

 

I have a cheap plastic vernier calliper that satisfies the first requirement, but it does not have an knob / thumbwheel.

Foto2024-04-07183656.thumb.jpeg.d0e6e0252781e873fe66fa24c40796d3.jpeg

Could not find any plastic callipers with a knob, unfortunately. The plastic ones are already rare enough, let alone with a wheel adjuster.

 

Then I spotted a Lego set with a container loader ("reach stacker", to be more precise) that has a worm gear and tried to make an abomination out of it. It is surprisingly challenging to build a compact functional tool out of random lego parts, a whole puzzle of its own. Respect to people who do it on a regular basis!

ezgif-7-5c0ccdc9c0.gif.f52230b2c0cf0713989c3d619e334677.gif

It kind of works, but the play and precision is not good enough for my needs. 

So I gave up on the wheel adjuster requirement and went back to the simple "calliper on a gantry" setup.

It was a nice warmup to recover some skills that I've lost over years of inactivity.

 

Foto2024-04-21205446.thumb.jpeg.97bde7e7a1b2630c19395ac657e0cafd.jpeg

This time I even got help from my little helper! She enjoyed cranking the mill :) 

Foto2024-04-27130356.thumb.jpeg.abe1d4bc946a6ca7079dbe15f1da1d79.jpeg

 

The resulting design has two parts - sliding gantry (no t-tracks, it is stable enough on its own) and a "calliper holder" that slides sideways on the gantry to allow the gantry keep contact with both sides of the baseboard.

The bottom edge of the caliper is trimmed to a flatter profile to avoid hitting the keelson. Both ends of the calliper can be used for a markup to allow for a comfortable pencil positioning.

The setup relies on three clamps to fix everything in position. These plastic clamps are a bit of an eyesore, maybe I will sidetrack again to build a nicer ones :D 

Foto2024-04-27134414.thumb.jpeg.eec27c61cc72d481f22f8cd25722761e.jpeg

Foto2024-04-27135524.thumb.jpeg.8db7c1a154b4c69b578be59cf7186bc6.jpegFoto2024-04-27135744.thumb.jpeg.f05b1fe1b5622ca85fc55fe44b6e8331.jpeg

 

 

Edited by Mike Y
Link to comment
Share on other sites

clever and simple!

Alan O'Neill
"only dead fish go with the flow"   :dancetl6:

Ongoing Build (31 Dec 2013) - HMS BELLEROPHON (1786), POF scratch build, scale 1:64, 74 gun 3rd rate Man of War, Arrogant Class

Member of the Model Shipwrights of Niagara, Niagara Region, Ontario, Canada (2016), and the Nautical Research Guild (since 2014)

Associate member of the Nautical Research and Model Ship Society (2021)

Offshore member of The Society of Model Shipwrights (2021)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Hi Mike Y,

 

Congratulations with your build log. I haven't read everything but there seems to be a lot of useful information in here. Thanks for taking the trouble to share all that. The ship is looking great. And I was wondering, how do you know how to use the milling machine? Does one need to do a course for that or would you recommend just buying one and do it with YouTube-tutorials?

 

Best regards,

 

Rik

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Rik, so glad that you find it useful! :) 

 

For the mill - the basics are very intuitive, no book or youtube guide required if you work with wood on our level. Feeds and speeds pretty much do not matter for the small wood pieces that we work with, common sense is enough (keep the fingers away from the cutter, do not try to cut 2cm deep in one go, listen for the sound that the cutter makes and slow down if it sounds rough). The cost of a mistake is also relatively low, worst case scenario you break a cutter, so do not start with a thin and delicate right away. 3mm cutter is an optimal all-round cutter in my opinion.

 

Imagine you have a drill that not only cuts down, but can also work sideways. The key feature is that you are not doing it freehand, but by fixing your part to the mill table and precisely moving it in all three directions using wheels, with everything being perpendicular or parallel. As long as you are cutting straight lines - mill would give you the best quality and precision comparing to files and chisels (unless you are a true master of these tools). And a fantastic feeling of being able to carefully maneuver it  with a 0.01mm precision without being a surgeon.

 

It even removes a need for measurements in simple setups - the wheels are marked to indicate a travel distance.  Say I want to cut a scarph joint 1mm deep and 4mm in each direction. Mount the part on a proper angle, move the cutter to the starting point, set axis to zero - and now you can just plunge the cutter 1mm down and move to the side by 4mm minus the cutter width. If the operation is simple enough to visualise the operations in your head - the markup and measurements are not even necessary, the mill can do it for you.

 

Further milling skills are mostly about metals, eliminating backlash, feeds and speeds, different kinds of cutters, precision, finishing passes, reference surfaces - all of that is an overkill for the basic wood milling in our hobby.

What is useful is a lot of clever ways to mount the part, especially the part that is asymmetrical and hard to clamp or put in a vice.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

If you are short on space - then yes, absolutely: https://www.proxxon.com/en/micromot/27110.php

 

It is the smallest mill available in a reasonable price range (excluding aliexpress drill-mill junk combos), which is both good and bad. The working area is quite small, but enough for shipmodeling needs. It is hard to upgrade and attempts to machine anything harder than brass on that mill are rather questionable. But it is a great way to start and is fairly cheap in comparison. Make sure to get the "precision vice PM40", the cutters and basic workholding clamps should be already included. 

 

If you have a workshop - then your choice is much wider, there are a lot of medium sized "mini mills", but all of them are too big and heavy to be casually pulled up on your work table, they require a more permanent position in your shop. Proxxon, on the other hand, takes less space than some smoothie blenders in the kitchen :) 

Edited by Mike Y
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rik, 

Mike had some good advice. If manuals, written materials are desired go a Google for the tool and add "manuals" to the search.   Little Machine Shop is a good place to start for documents.

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Was postponing the next big phase of the build - platforms & decks. 
It should be a very enjoyable part, one of the main reasons to start the fully framed model in a first place.
But the learning curve is steep, primarily the planning part. Previously I relied on Hahn drawings to locate the parts, and the rest was rather repetitive. 
Now I need to sail uncharted waters - Hahn only provides locations of top deck beams and that's about it.


So I relied on TFFM to understand the inner workings - these books are worth their weight in gold, I am immensely grateful to authors for simplifying a lot of research in an easy to understand form.
And, of course, old Admiralty drawings from May 1778 done by George White.
So I spent some evenings trying to wrap my head around and map the location and dimensions of the aft platform.
Foto2024-07-20222413.thumb.jpeg.ec856c2d19efc6e263e0c9dd7947e14e.jpeg

Brain went into an overthinking mode and too many decisions should have been done too late in the evening.
"What should I take as a reference point vertically? What about the horizontal reference?  How to ensure a fair line? What method to pick to compensate for a lack of planking on one side? How to avoid a cumulative measurement error creep?" 

 

Finally the markup was done

Foto2024-07-20230859.thumb.jpeg.76caeaf2ab999016c1ef4f24650a6771.jpeg

And a transparent template was born

Foto2024-07-20232713.thumb.jpeg.36dc8dc1b78ea083e2a34e9881e5a164.jpeg

 

Transfer paper allows to copy the shape easily to cut off the wood patterns, but of course it leads to a creeping inaccuracy.
Foto2024-07-21225704.thumb.jpeg.db3abc4eccf147a33c09cde90fa4dfd4.jpeg

Shaping 12 symmetrical parts that form 6 knees was not easy, but at least it did not require any thinking - just a pure relaxing process of small wood parts fabrication. Was missing a nano-sized flush trim router to make an exact mirror copy of each part :)Ideal usecase for CNC! Though where is the fun in that...

Even forgot to take any pictures, the only one is the final edge polishing. 
Foto2024-07-27151839.thumb.jpeg.965ffe8131d8cc2be3d45afc4d9e6bee.jpeg

The final assembly was tricky. I was planning to fine tune the knee angles, but trying to assemble a trapezoid when all its sides are sliding around is a very annoying process.
If only I could somehow clamp all these pieces 🙄 Oh, wait, the past me thought about this and made some clamps. Six years ago. 😳  How very nice of me! 
Time to dust them off and use them first time for their intended purpose!
They worked excellently, providing a gentle clamping force to get all pieces under control. Still took a while to fine tune the angles (adjusting one angle immediately affects the rest, what a mess).
Foto2024-07-27214227.thumb.jpeg.ac4ef1ff734a683d32fbf629ac145242.jpeg

Here is the assembled platform, just need to fit it to the hull, add carlings and ledges and sand everything nice and smooth.

Before adding ledges one is supposed to make sure they do not interfere with the lower deck pillars, but it's too much effort for now (requiting to mark the locations of all lower deck beams), creating a risk for another half-a-year modelling block.

Will sort that out afterwards, moving the beams a little bit and even notching some ledges into the pillars.
After all, the ship I am modelling is not famous for the build quality. The whole story around it smells "Friday night shift, shoddy engineering", so a few internal structural members overlapping each other are rather on brand :P 
Foto2024-07-28181512.thumb.jpeg.b174bd372b965e7f44a917ba2827d60a.jpeg

Glad it would be hidden deep in the hold, a practice piece that still gets to be on the model :)

Also I saw a number of build logs using pins to dry fit in place, but that implies drilling a tiny hole in the part. Do you just leave a hole there? Or plug the hole with glue and sawdust and do one more round of sanding before the final glue-up?


Would be very happy to hear advices, suggestions and ideas to improve that process. 
I made it work, but surely it can be made easier and faster (and, frankly, more accurate). 

 

 

Edited by Mike Y
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Next up was fitting the platform into the hull. Hahn jig makes a very nice stand for dust-free sanding and fitting, would come in handy :) 
Foto2024-07-29203717.thumb.jpeg.418b3ce2d1e53065dda7164eba3be5db.jpeg

When fitted into the hull - the platform looks quite off-center due to the one-sided planking. Carlings would be centered around the keel line, making them shifted from the platform center.
Looks strange when taking a straight up photo, but it should be better once more layers are done, so it is viewed at an angle. I think it is a better alternative than adding spacers on the non-planked side or shaving off some meat from the knees on the planked side.
The offset would get smaller the higher up you go, this platform is the deepest structure in the hold where the ceiling planking has a significant angle.
Foto2024-07-29211640.thumb.jpeg.66d8d69d0ec1ef15a34f41507bab1f9b.jpeg

Cutting notches for carlings was a blast! An incredible set of carving chisels came in handy, this is not even the smallest size! The smallest Veritas chisel for comparison. 

Foto2024-07-29214703.thumb.jpeg.41029cb363badc9613c80210e4601246.jpeg
Incredible feeling when a piece perfectly fits into these notches when dry, nice and tight!

Foto2024-07-29222443.thumb.jpeg.978f898d8277fc057775e9c84aec175c.jpegFoto2024-07-29222227.thumb.jpeg.3272a41976f2198d3f8a756177f5509f.jpeg

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Few lessons learned:

1) Flattening the surface with a plane is quite tricky, since you bump into some cross piece with a risk of a chipping. Next time -  make carlings the right height from the start (with just a tiny bit of margin for sanding)

Foto2024-09-08123757.thumb.jpeg.656cf087adb598000cbac1ec3f6ca061.jpeg

2) Used mill to make notches for ledges - it is not worth it. The positioning is overly complicated, and the notches are quite shallow, so even a 1mm mill does not go deep enough, resulting in a semi-circular notch that is too narrow.

In the end a manual markup and chiseling worked much better.

Foto2024-09-08140428.thumb.jpeg.8a5d8c18d75f5b0dc37164aa1750dd2d.jpeg

 

The final step is my favourite - a little bit of sanding magic.

This time I tried fine grits of mesh sanding pads - they are amazing! 

Foto2024-09-15121344.thumb.jpeg.d8468e1314e84b950e25cfa84172c707.jpeg

Before/after sanding. Isn't it awesome? There is a method to hide all imperfections like they were never there. Like a make-up for parts :D 

Foto2024-09-14135520.thumb.jpeg.f210194a0455209928dd272022eb9516.jpegFoto2024-09-15122235.thumb.jpeg.d7fde5d170af57938ea006a4ca7f6d08.jpeg

 

The whole asymmetrical layout idea is a bit questionable in the narrow area, but I still think it's the best option for asymmetrically planked model, and the offset would be much smaller once you leave the "bottom of the hold" part with a very steep planking angle.

Foto2024-09-15122630.thumb.jpeg.7049a631b0295755089949efa9cf5cb0.jpeg

Looks like a render, isn't it?  :) 

I tried to use a different kind of pear for carlings and ledges, but the contrast is too subtle, will try a more contrasting wood next time!

Foto2024-09-15122407.thumb.jpeg.7886938141ec39b0d2b2034fc75d5a40.jpeg

Edited by Mike Y
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...