USS CAIRO by Gerhardvienna - RADIO - live steam

[Gerhardvienna]

As I wrote here http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/11538-western-river-steamboat-heroine-by-ggrieco-scale-124-1838-as-she-appeared-before-hitting-a-snag-in-the-red-river/?p=401974I plan to build the USS Cairo, as all my modelships in 1:50 scale. The history of the ship is well known, there are so many pages in the internet, so I will not bore you with that. But there is a big question I have. I have a set of the plans from bob hill, and I am not sure, where to measure the length of the ship. Is the lenght of 175 feet measured at the hull, or includes this the rudders between the blue lines on the plan? I have marked the lines with red arrows.

Would be happy to get some info about that, so I can scale the plans and start with the ship. 

 

Regards, and thank you all

Gerhard

[mtaylor]

Gerhard,

 

I note that he has the scale on the plans.  I take it that the numbering at the bottom of the plan is "meters"?   I'm guessing, based on what I see, is that "0" would be at the end of the hull and not the rudders.

[Jim Lad]

Given that she's 175 feet long, the numbering along the bottom can't be in either meters or feet - maybe frame numbering?  Anyway, as the plan is to scale, a simple measurement of the length should answer your question.

 

John

[ggrieco]

I can't wait to watch this one go together!

 

You'll probably be interested in the project currently going on in our conservation lab.  We have just received the remains of the CSS Georgia.  She was originally scuttled, but an attempted salvage in the 1860s with explosives damaged the remains pretty badly.  there may not be enough of the structure to be useful too you but artifacts may be very helpful for details.  We've received over 142 tons of artifacts (that is not a misprint) that will have to be conserved over the coming years.  The conservation has just started and it will be a little while before the info starts flowing but I'm sure there will be some useful finds.

 

you can check out some of the artifacts at:

 

http://www.sas.usace.army.mil/Missions/CivilWorks/SavannahHarborExpansion/CSSGeorgia.aspx

 

If I hear of anything useful I'll let you know.

 

Good luck with the build!!

 

Glenn

[NenadM]

I pull up the chair, and beer, and popcorns ...

[Cathead]

John's right, the scale is right there, but something seems odd to me.

 

I tried to measure it in Photoshop, but then realized I can't read the scale on the image, it's too small. However, the scale bar looks like it represents 10 feet and 3 meters, both by the digits and by the pattern of the divisions (there are three divisions on the meter scale, and 10 on the foot scale, which is the right ratio between the two, and the foot scale ends with two digits).

 

So far, so good. But when I copied that scale bar, and duplicated it along the length of the hull, it took 32 repetitions. I tested that conclusion by using the Photoshop ruler tool to measure the hull, measure the scale bar, and divide the two; this also returned a length of 32 times the scale bar. That would make the hull over 300 feet long, rather than 175.

 

Unless I'm missing something, that scale bar is wrong, which means you can't use it to get the right length of the hull.

 

Also, those blue lines sure seem to be dimensional lines laying out the end points of a measurement, but without knowing what measurement the draftsman intended, who knows what they represent. I would guess, like others, that the 175 foot length that's referenced everywhere is for the solid hull without rudders, but the placement of those lines is odd.

 

Is there any other information, or another plan, that would help?

[mtaylor]

Did you see this? http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/9609-uss-cairo   The last post by Canute (Ken) mentions the Maryland Silver Company.

 

There's also this topic:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/1492-civil-war-ironclad-riverboats

 

And another but not on MSW:  http://modelshipbuilder.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?5318.post

Edited April 17, 2016 by mtaylor

[Roger Pellett]

In my opinion, the best published source on the ships of the Union Civil War Navy is the two volume "The Old Steam Navy" by Donald L. Canney. Volume Two covers ironclad vessels.

 

This book includes a reproduction of the above drawing which is credited to the National Park Service. The book also includes a companion cross section that I assume you also have. The scale "ruler" on the drawing is 10ft long.

 

Canny lists the dimensions of these City class ironclads as length: 175 ft length on deck x 50 ft extreme breadth. This would not include the rudder.

 

Roger Pellett

[Roger Pellett]

Further to my last post:

 

The drawing that you have was apparently prepared by the U.S. National Park Service from the salvaged remains of USS Cairo. It would be as close to an as-built drawing that you are likely to find.

 

The drawing in the U.S. National Archives is the drawing prepared by navel constructor Pook. The actual vessel was apparently changed somewhat during construction. The major change mentioned in the book involved the joint between the hull and the casemate.

 

Roger

[Gerhardvienna]

First of all, thank you so much for this great response!

 

Hi Mark

The scales that are drawn on this plans are not correct, I`ve tried them. So I must rescale the whole plans in 3D Cad V22, and print them then. I have done this before with other plans too, it works good. I will take the hull for measuring, thank you for that hint!

 

Hi Jim

 

The numbers on the plan must be numbers of frames. There are over 100 frames to make, this will be sometimes a bit boring to me, but if they were there, they must be in the model.

 

Hi Glenn

Great finds, just took a short look at this site. I must take more time for that! Thank you for your good wishes, I`m trying my best as always At his large amount of artefacts I`m sure it will take years to conserve, good luck for that.

 

Hi Nenad

Sit down and enjoy   , as everyone else is welcome!

 

Hi Cathead

You are right, the scale bars are wrong. I will use the hull for a new measurement, but also have a look to the beam, if that fits to length when scaling the plans to size. As i saw, jim Bodnar used the same plans: http://www.modelshipbuilder.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?5406.postfor his build.

 

Hi Mark

Thank you for this links, I have them all. I have been searching for the CAIRO for over a year, and collected everything I could find. Also a lot of photos from the internet, and from friends too are saved on my PC. When I intend to do a new build, first thing of all is to search what I can find, and save it all!

 

Hi Roger

The changes you mentioned, will not make an influence to the model. I must make the casemate removeable, so I can reach the engines and RC components. Maybe I will use a (not original) transvers thruster for better steering too, this will be cleared when the build is on the way.

 

Thank you all again

Regards

Gerhard

 

 

[Canute]

Gerhard, this is a ship and era I am deeply interested in. I'll follow along, too. Best of luck in this endeavor.

[Cathead]

Gerhard,

 

I'm so looking forward to this build, as a big fan of western American steamboats. I recently completed a fully-framed steamboat from 1865 (see my tagline); though the framing was tedious, once I had a jig set up, it really wasn't as bad as I feared. My craftsmanship isn't anywhere near Glenn's, or I suspect yours, but I point it out in case there's any value to be gleaned.

 

Also, I have some photos of Cairo from a visit to Vicksburg a few years ago. If they'd be of any use to you, I'd be happy to share.

 

Viel Glueck!

[Gerhardvienna]

Hi Ken

Welcome to the CAIRO , take place and hopefully enjoy!

 

Hi Cathead

Welcome too, photos from the Cairo are always welcome, thank you! Craftmanship is something to be always educated, every thing i do is something to learn more. Set your targets high, and results will come to the best.

 

 

Hello to all again

Some words to the plans I have for the USS CAIRO

The ship will be built in 1:50 scale, and I will build bith engines to scale, the pitman engine and the grasshopper they called "the doctor". Both engines will run on live steam, but in addition to the original steering rudders I will possibly build a transvers rudder into the bow, this is meant for better steering. The model will be 1060 mm long, with about 330mm beam. I have made some smaller things a year ago, the carriages for the smaller guns are done. More about that will come in next post, I have to sort them out first. Currently I`m working on the plans to bring them to correct scale, then print them all, and check out the amount of wood I will need.

 

Regards

Gerhard

 

 

[captainbob]

Live steam and radio, two of my favorites.  Sounds like a fun build.

 

Bob

[Gerhardvienna]

Live steam and radio, two of my favorites.  Sounds like a fun build.

 

Bob

Hi Bob

 

I hope it will be just that. Today I had time to scale all the plans to correct  size, just not printed them. The next days will be filled up with calculating the woods for the frames, order some brass and aluminium for the engines, and there is still the DANZIG I want to continue. 

 

Regards

Gerhard

[grsjax]

There is a publication put out by the National Park Service that details the salvage and reconstruction of the Cairo.  It includes several sheets of detailed plans.  It was published in March 1981.  I found a copy on the net but can't find the link at the moment.  A google search for "Cairo historic reconstruction report" should turn it up.  Hope this helps.

[Gerhardvienna]

Hi grsjax

 

Thank you for joining in!

I`ve downloaded this a year ago, as i wrote above, I always search a long time before I start with a new build. The publication is named

"USS Cairo historic stucture report - National Park service", very interesting. There is also some good info to find at the library of the congress http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/ms0291/

So, I have a lot of good infos to the ship and its history saved on my PC, including pics of the guns, the left parts of the whel, and the pitman engine. But not one single photo from "the doctor", this is, what I still miss for the build.

 

Regards

Gerhard

Edited April 19, 2016 by Gerhardvienna

[grsjax]

 

"But not one single photo from "the doctor", this is, what I still miss for the build.

 

Regards

Gerhard"

 

Couldn't find any drawings or "the doctor" but there are several good pictures of these engines on the web.  They appear to be relatively simple single cylinder walking beam engines.

 

 

[Roger Pellett]

The doctor was a boiler feed pump that drew water from the river and pumped it directly to the boiler. The high pressure engines used on Western Rivers steamboats did not condense steam and recycle the feed water. Steam from the engine cylinder was exhausted to the atmosphere.

 

Roger

[ianmajor]

This has me interested. I also note that ggrieco is looking in at the moment. With Gehard(Vienna) building and Glenn (ggrieco) in the background I am getting some very high quality vibes!

[Gerhardvienna]

The doctor was a boiler feed pump that drew water from the river and pumped it directly to the boiler. The high pressure engines used on Western Rivers steamboats did not condense steam and recycle the feed water. Steam from the engine cylinder was exhausted to the atmosphere.

 

Roger

 

Hi Roger

I have the Walking beam engine plans from Gerry Dykstra, in metric scale, and the Edgar T. Westbury plans for a pitman engine, from the Model Engineer Magazine from 1965 in inches. But no photo from the doctor. The Dykstra - engine will fit perfect to the model, as I think, and the Westbury is good in scale for the Cairo too. All this will be measured out, when I have the plans printed, I`ll give an update about this when measuring is done.

 

Regards

Gerhard

 

 

 

This has me interested. I also note that ggrieco is looking in at the moment. With Gehard(Vienna) building and Glenn (ggrieco) in the background I am getting some very high quality vibes!

 

Hi Ian

 

I hope you will get that! Although I have been building some models at the time, I never have made a steamer like the CAIRO. There will be a lot of new mwthods of building for me, keep fingers crossed that all works fine, please!

 

So a bit more of my intentions: I will try to build the boiler as the original one, this will make even more work than a "normally used" boiler, but there is not too much room under the casemate for usual boilers. It will all take some time, and some things are not cleared for me, how I should do them. All of that will be mentioned by time, I wont hurry too much!

 

Regards

Gerhard

 

[Gerhardvienna]

As I wrote earlier, I have done a bit of "prework" for the Cairo, the 6 larger carriages for the guns are made, but still without wheels, and some smaller parts also missing. But, It is a beginning!

 

From this parts will 6 carriages be built, the first pair of sideplates is visible at the left side

 

Holes for the axles are drilled in a form

 

The completed side parts were glued together with a glue stick, this is strong enough to keep them togehter while milling the lower contour, and is easy to split after.

 

Milled parts still stuck together. They can be split with a sharp knife without any damage

 

The carriages were glued in a form, to get the same result for ever piece

 

The axels were made from toothpicks

 

There is more to come in the next post, hope you enjoy it....

 

Regards

Gerhard

 

 

 

 

[Gerhardvienna]

Hi Daves

 

I do have all the drawings, thank you. But it seems there in no photo from the doctor and the auxiliary engine. But I will trie to built all these engines for the model, so I can also use similar ones, and maybe change in size to fit them. There is always a way for me , to be as close as ever possible to original!

 

Regards

Gerhard

[captainbob]

In the book, "The Western Rivers Engineroom Cyclopedium" By Alan Bates there are a couple of pictures and a sketch of doctor engines.  I don't know that they would be the same as those on the USS CAIRO but they might help.

 

Bob  

[Gerhardvienna]

Hi Bob

 

Thank you for that hint! Just took a short look, the book is only listed at amazon, but without price, and it seems to be out of stock. I must search a bit more, maybe I can find it elsewhere. But as I wrote in post 21, I have good plan drawings for the engines, so it is not too bad, when I cant find the book. As i guess there will be a lot of metal work for me to do!

 

Regards

Gerhard

[Elijah]

This looks to be an interesting build! I will watch with interest .

[Gerhardvienna]

Hi Elijah

 

Welome on board! Enjoy the report, get a beer or wine or softdrink. Popcorn is ready, take your seats!

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After that a bit more theoretical things I would like to continue with the gun carriages. Some fittings were to make, all are from brass or coppered iron wire, and some really small discs were needed too. I made them from black cardwork, this was the easiest way to produce them.

 

Fittings and materials

 

Before mouting the fittings some holes were needed. I drill that narrow holes with a sewing needle in a fast running drilling machine.

 

The cardwork discs

 

Drilled holes and mounted discs. The nails are small copper nails, shortened to 3mm length

 

Even more fittings............

 

That was, what I`ve done earlier, all following posts will be delivered "just in time"

 

Again thank you all for tipps and hints, and your so many likes!

 

Regards

Gerhard

 

 

 

[Gerhardvienna]

Hello again

Thank you for all your comments and so many likes

 

Today I could print out the first plans, and connect the single pages with tape. The hull will be 1060 mm long, and 312 mm wide, so the plans are correct, just the scale bars printed to the plans are not. This means ALL of the scale bars on the Bob Hill plans, but they are perfect for working, when they are scaled to correct size!

 

The hull on plans

 

Frame 72 scaled

 

Frame 84 Scaled

 

The drawings for the guns come from the historic structure report, the scale bars at this drawings are correct!

 

Regards

Gerhard

 

 

[mtaylor]

Oh my.. she's going to be rather large model, isn't she?

[Gerhardvienna]

Oh my.. she's going to be rather large model, isn't she?

 

She WILL!

But that fits good to my others, the smallest floating model is about 80 cm long, and the DANZIG will be around 1,70 meters. So the CAIRO is in the middle with that 1,12 meters. But she is really wide, with over 30 cm. There is room enough for all the engines and RC Components, will be fun to work in the hull.

 

Regards

Gerhard