CharlieZardoz

Check Mamoli's "Newport" kit. Looks like the same model, just reboxed and at best slightly modified. Mamoli's common nasty practise. In my opinion, no real ship, just someone's invention?

Using off-the-shelf fittings is, of course, a cost saving measure for the manufacturer.  I know this has been a particular point of contention between Chris Watton an Amati; Chris usually pushes for as much vessel-specific fidelity as he can for his designs, but Amati hold the purse strings, so there are limits.  Perhaps it was stated earlier, but kit builders are actually living in a Golden Era of kit manufacturing - there's a new crop of designers (Chris, Chuck, et al) with a passion for historically accurate, true-to-scale products, and Internet resources (like this forum) make it relatively easy to weed out bad designs for those interested in avoiding them.
 
Cheers!

Figuerres:  You're right about the lantern. See below.
 
Thanks, Russ. If you do enough of those coils, you start to get the hang of it.
 
Final details and the finished model:  Although they weren't actually the very last items done, I'm treating the lantern, the anchors and the flagstaff as the final details. The lantern was made from an old street lamp that I found in my model railroad scrap box. The lamp portion was heavily reworked and the brackets were made from brass rod and brass strip. The anchors were made using the kit castings with the stocks made from boxwood. The cable was run back over the bitts back to the main hatch. The anchor bouys were made from pieces of tapered dowel and then rigged. The flag staff is shown on the plans, although it seems awkward with the boom. I chose to install it mostly because I liked the way it looked. 
 
Photos of the finished model follow the photos of the final detail work.
 
Bob

I spent literally years searching information for the period ship kit, commercially available. It is very interesting. Those knowing the world of plastic model kits (aircraft) know very well the discussion about exact number of the rivets on the pilot's seat, measuring the kit to tens of millimeters and arguing about the best one. Here we are quite lucky, if the kit at least represents something "real".
What I found is not 100% accurate - please correct and add whatever needed, just my opinion:
1. By far I consider the best producer I know in terms of quality and accuracy American Model Shipways. Not the perfect - surely many minuses will be found by more experienced, but the best available in general. (And being from Europe, where these kits are hard to get, must be sorry for that).
2. Victory Models - offers currently only limited number of kits, but of great quality. Apart from Lady Nelson cutter (which if not the real name, is very nice representation of a British period cutter), all other are historically documented, Russian brig Mercury may be one of the best kits available at all (how many kit producers offers you a deck with correct, bent planks instead of incorrect straight planking seen on 99% of the models??) comparable to the very popular MS brig Syren. What to say - former designer of famous Jotika kits is behind this - since he moved to Amati / Victory Models, in my opinion Jotika is going little bit down and Victory Models shines...
3. Here in Europe very good reputation has Jotika/Caldercraft. One big plus is that most of its models are based on Admiralty plans of the real vessels. This sounds great! Unless you get one of those plans and realize, that plans may not be complete or show the vessels in general lines and many details on the kits are missing or too simplified. But at least you have here no "fictive" ship. Ok, may be apart from HM schooner Pickle, that represents modern ship , not the historical Pickle to which no plans are preserved as far as I know. Still you may found some interesting stories: Try to search something about the HM Mars / Orestes - you can see there are some "problems"with this beautifully  looking kit anyway. Then very popular HM brig Badger - by no means Nelson's first command as advertised!!  (I spent much time till I got the final confirmation for that), but what sells, that helps obviously.... etc. etc. For sure, vessels like Victory, Bounty, Endeavor, although produced by many others are the best offer, where the competition is in terms of accuracy many miles behind.
4. Then other European kit manufacturers producing all sort of fictitious / semi-ficticious or real ships:
Some of them are said to be quite nice and said to be quite accurate  (Mantua/ Panart Royal Caroline). Some of them bears the name of the real ships, but has nothing in common with them (Mamoli "Beagle"). Most of others them are just more or less good "general type" of the vessel (Most of the Artesania Latina, Occre etc. etc). What I consider to be the nastiest things are the kits with not only fictitious ship name but also totally fairytale story behind it. Like Mamoli's Black Prince. I am not saying it is wrong to have a kit of the ship that never existed. Some manufacturers produce ships that are referred as "typical representation of <vessel type>" which is perfectly ok I think, but trying to sell something wrapped in fictive story, well, no, thanks. So, as mentioned here somewhere, it is not the question, whether Artesania Latina Constellation was "mistaken", by error mixed frigate of 18ct with later vessel. The question is whether AL really CARES about that. I would say, while we are buying the kits first and only then desperately try to pair it with some real vessel, convincing ourselves that it must be "that ship" (alas, for all those money paid!), till that time we will have many kits that represents nothing but somebody's fiction in the market.
5. One last thing mentioned already somewhere above: One thing I do not like here in Europe (please let me know how it is with US kit makers) is so called "common jewellery". Even the best producers like Victory models offer for example cannons, anchors, blocks of one type for more than one / all models. One is than surprised, why are those anchors so unrealistically big for my yacht? Or what type of strange gun barrel shape is this?
But nothing is perfect, who wants perfection builds from scratch. What I think we can do is either resign on historical accuracy and just enjoy the build of the ship we like or make proper research BEFORE purchase and pick something that ,if not up to our expectation, at least resembles closely what we want and can be bashed to our joy. Have a nice day.

Tadeusz,
 
Would you give some thought to posting your list here:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/forum/13-ships-plans-and-scratch-research-general-research-on-specific-vessels-and-ship-types/ ?
 
I think it would be big help to those looking for plans.

Hi,
After rescaling you can use only strips for hull planking and other simple stock of wood rest of things to be usless.
More resonable and cheaper to buy the plans for the model you want to build. You can also buy items of equipment such as guns, blocks, decorations and other on a scale appropriate for your project.
 Plans are available for most models sold as kits and many other ships to build models. However, the construction of models from scratch requires much more equipment in  workshop and skills  of modellmaker.
Source of plans at reasonable prices:
Associazione Navimodellisti Bolognesi (Italy)
http://www.anb-online.it/
I bought there plans for 5 ships.
Big choice of plans, moderate prices (Germany)
http://shop.vth.de/bauplane-frasteile.h ... 2&limit=30
Links for sources of plans
http://www.bauplanarchiv.modellskipper.de/
 
Cornwall Model Boats:
http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/aca ... plans.html

Royal Museum Greenwhich
 http://collections.rmg.co.uk/

modelbouwers (Dutch):
http://www.modelbouwers.nl/tekeningenschepen.php

ANCRE: http://www.ancre.fr/
Plans  in Polish monthly Modelarstwo Okrętowe (Ships Modelling).
http://www.modelarstwookretowe.pl/index.php?p=17
List of plans:
http://www.modelarstwookretowe.pl/index.php?p=44
Spanish plans:
http://www.cuervas-mons.com/Miscelanea% ... lanos.html
 
Free uploads (Spanish)
http://www.modelismonaval.com/descargas ... arcos-vela
 
Happy modelling.
 
Tadeusz
 
My models:
From kits
Vasa, HMS Victory, Le Solei Royale, Friesland
From scratch
HMS Warrior 1860, Esplanade, Grosse Yacht
Norman’s ship, HMS Speedy, La Royale
Peter von Danzig
Polacca XVII cent.
Current project:
SS Savannah 1818
 
 

Charlie,
 
In the case of the Fair American, nobody was sure about what scale the original model is, or the size of the actual ship was. When Model Shipway first offered the popular FA in solid hull form back in the 1950s, they guessed it to be in 3/16th of an inch scale, and so marked their yellow box.
 
When they redid the kit in laser cut bulkhead form in the 1980s, the FA she suddenly became a 1/4th scale model, EVEN THOUGH BOTH KITS AND THEIR FITTINGS WERE THE EXACT SAME SIZE!

as I see it, and read about scratch building,  kits just take some of the pre work out of it for you.  scale plans, precut parts and finding pre made manufactured parts already made to that scale and putting it all together in a box.
 
so your steps would be to rescale the plans, transfer those scaled up (or down) plans to cut new scaled parts ( false keel, bulk heads, false deck and so forth) and figure out new scale sizes of manufactured parts like dead eyes, blocks, cannons, rigging lines , planks and so on and buy or make those.  
Basically then, you have just made your own kit to the scale you want.

Charlie,
 
For the linking:  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/760-how-to-add-a-build-log-link-to-your-signature/
 
True, scratch isn't much different from kits except normally there's no instructions.  Kits do have a lot pre-cut and some things pre-made but they do have almost all of the parts you need.  Scratching you just source or make your own.

Charlie,
 
Basically, you enlarge the plans (or make them smaller.  Then cut wood as needed for keel, bulkheads, etc.   You'll basically be scratchbuilding.  Nothing wrong with that and quite a few folks have build logs in the scratch area for doing this.
 
The only thing really different is that parts need to be cut by you instead of the manufacturer.

The similarity to Sherbourne is not purely coincidental. Both kits were designed by Chris Watton.

I would keep the hull in reserve

Artworx does a 200 for Arizona that is very nice and looks just like Pontos.

My first wooden kit (30 years ago) was a Golden Kits Schooner Enterprise. The scale was shown as 1:60 on the box and plans.
 
Constructo now offers a Schooner Enterprise. The scale is shown as 1:51.
 
I've looked at build logs here for the Constructo Enterprise, and it looks like the same Golden Kits Enterprise I built, but the scales are different.
 
So my question is-are they the same size kit with the scale changed on box and plans, or are they 2 different kits? And, if they are the same, what scale is it?
 
Thanks,
 
Harvey

Hello Again, 
 
In my humble opinion, there are now enough connections out there for people to make up their own kits, in whatever scale and whatever quality level they want to make. For instance, using advanced CAD software, I can develop frames for any ship in any scale, as long as there are line drawings. I can also supply single-shot photo-etch parts. Once you have frames in hand, there are several excellent manufacturers of strip wood out there. After that, there are people like Chuck Passaro, who makes absolutely lovely blocks and ropes. After that there are several websites where you can get 3D printed parts for some other bits. 
 
The only thing missing are the decorations and those will be available within two to four years, in my opinion. So, really, we should be thinking in terms of the "virtual factory" instead of trying to figure out which kit is best. I think the sky's the limit in terms of what people can do with modelling these days. 
 
Best Regards, 
 
Rick 

Rich, thanks for the kind words. The blond wood is boxwood from Hobby Mill. Lorcan (the cat) wasnt pleased with the material that came with the kit so she forced me to build my own.
 
Mark, thanks for the condolances, they really work their way in dont they? He was a package deal with the Future Admiral and ended up adopting me also. I am not sure who misses him more, my better half or the cat; they were best friends. Not that I dont miss him. 
 
A bit of progress these last few days. I finally rigged the gun ports. I am not totally satisfied with the knots and seizing. If I had rigged them before I mounted the transom like I planned I think i could have done a better job. I am going to accept them for now. once I have done some more rigging I might go back and have another go at them.
 

I started out with some tape to mark out the holes for the 'leather" tubes I made from rolled paper and painted
 
 

glued the rope into the tube and inserted into the hole. They dont look bad, but I think when I have some more experience I might revisit these. The seizing could be better but I had trouble getting in there to work, tight squeeze between the ring and the transom. A better way would have been to seize the cross rope to the rings and then mount to the transom. Another lesson for the future, Make a plan and stick to it to the best of your ability, dont alter it without a good reason.
 

Not bad at all from normal viewing distance.
 
Ok back to gun carriages.
 
Sam
 
 
 

Black Prince may be mixed up with the CNS Alfred a BlueJacket Kit
 
CNS Alfred: copied from www.shipmodelersassociation.org
"The ALFRED was a converted merchantman of 440 tons which carried a compliment of 220 men with 20 each 9-pounder guns and 10 each 6-pounder guns. They think John Wharton of Philadelphia originally built her in 1774. She was originally the merchantman BLACK PRINCE which first made two voyages to England as a merchantman before being requisitioned for a warship by the Continental Congress on November 4, 1775. She was renamed for Alfred the Great, the ninth-century British king credited with building England’s first fleet. Her first commander was Captain Dudley Saltonstall.

The Alfred was the first flagship of the new Continental Navy in 1775, flying the Grand Union Flag of the United Colonies. She was made flagship of Commodore Ezek Hopkins’s eight-ship squadron (including COLUMBUS, CABOT, ANDREW DORIA, PROVIDENCE, FLY, HORNET, and WASP), which occupied Nassau for two weeks in March 0f 1776. On board the ALFRED on her voyage on October 26, 1776, was one lieutenant John Paul Jones, when the ALFRED left New London for a cruise off Nova Scotia during which ALFRED captured nine enemy ships before successfully returning to Boston on December 26th. The British supplied many of the supplies and war material needed by General George Washington and his army by just such seizures of British supply ships originally intended for the British.

The following August, under Captain Elisha Hinman, ALFRED and RALEIGH sailed for France for military supplies. Returning via the West Indies, the two ships were engaged by the British ships HMS ARIADNE (20 guns) and CERES (14 guns) on March 29, 1778. As a result of this battle, ALFRED was captured and acquired by the Royal Navy at Barbados. She only lasted in the Royal Navy for four years, however, as she was then sold out of service in 1782.

There is a fine kit of this model put out by Bluejacket Shipcrafters based upon the research of Larry Arnot who produced the instruction booklet for this kit model that is a textbook on the details of 18th century naval design and outfitting. The model is to the scale of 1:96, is of solid hull construction and comes with brass etching details. This is not a model for a beginner if the modeler intends to fully rig the model."
 
P.S. I have this kit on my shelf waiting...

On the post about the USS Constellation, the model depicts her as she was setup until the 80s or 90s in Baltimore Harbor.  It was not until more recently that she was rebuilt to resemble her as built. The ship was originally claimed to be built in the late 1700s, research later proved that she was built in the mid 1800s, configured as she now is. So while the kit does not show her as built, it does show her as she was when the kit came out.

Hey Mark! Lol I love the 1854 sloop! But that's me I happen to dig the civil war era sailing vessels and if I ever went for the AL kit someday I wouldn't think it too much trouble to modify/bash the kit to more accurately portray the sloop as it appears today (or did in civil war times).  It should always be a fun process researching/falling in love with a build.  As I mentioned the 1986 model expo catalogue I just read it over and over again as a kid loving every design so to realize after all these years some are ficticious was a bit shocking but oh well more amusing than anything else.  If one wants to be really obsessive with historical accuracy and have a "museum quality" admiralty POF model etc. best learn how to scratch build but even then you can only research so much since some facts are lost to history. Part of the fun I think is not knowing I mean back as a kid me and pop built the Santa Maria from scratch there's no real naval plans for the thing you can just go grab in an archive somewhere so you make a few guesses. He made a very nice back cabin with a bookshelf and bed and all those little touches personalize your model which makes it your own work of art
 
P.S. Your sloop Constellation looks very nice btw!

I was reading through some of these posts and WOW, I can't believe some of the remarks. First off, model ship kits are just that a kit. There is nothing museum quality about them and nothing unique from model to model either. I know this going in and knew it from the first kit I ever built. But a ship model kit gets the builder to eventually realize that it's not just about building the kit, it's also about the adventure and experience of it. Most kit's take any where from five hundred to thousands of hours to build, but after your first kit build, you realize that to extend this warm fuzzy feeling of accomplishment, you have to do a bit of research. Yep I know, that dreaded (S) word that we all hated in school (studying). Then after a few models under your belt, you can really start to get motivated and begin kit bashing or take the other major leap and go to scratch building, which could produce a museum quality model depending on the time, effort and yes, research.
 
But me, there is nothing like breaking open the crisp plastic wrapping of a new ship model kit that the UPS man dropped off at my door. I can spend hours upon hours just going through the kit, looking at all the things inside the box. So no, I agree that some if not most aren't great, accurate or even a decent representation of the original. But I don't care, so please don't spoil it for me      

I'm one who thinks the research is half the fun.  And also half the frustration.  Let's face it, with a kit, you either take the manufacturer's word for it, or you research and bash if you're going for accuracy.  See my response below on one set of fun and games I had.....
 
 
I did this kit.  I visited the Constellation in 1977  and was convinced by the smooth BS of the tour guide that this really was the 1797 frigate and I was very impressed.  Fast forward many years.  I got the kit... oh boy!!!!  Then I decided to check...  oops... the kit isn't of the 1797 frigate.  What I saw sitting in the harbor in Baltimore wasn't the 1797 frigate.  Hit the internet and discover that many folks have been bamboozled over the years either by intention or those who did it, just didn't know any better.   The plans in the Smithsonian were even "changed".
 
So.. research indicated the kit had the hull lines of what sat in the harbor.... the 1854 sloop Constellation.  The folks in Baltimore butchered the hull to produce the so-called frigate.  Hmm.... what to do?  I spread my wings and bashed the living daylights out of that kit.     Jerry Todd is doing a scratch and I feel he has better research than I did, so don't take my build as gospel.
 
AL apparently got suckered into believing that the ship model they have was the real frigate.  But, the info is out there so why don't they change the kit?   I'm suspecting they continue to sell the kit as is because people buy it because buyers believe that the manufacturer wouldn't lie to them.  Besides, who wants the sloop... they want the frigate.   And what of the 1797 frigate? Good question.  Most tend to think that the plans went up in smoke when the British burned Washington.
 
Anyway, my moral.. there's accuracy and there's art and sometimes there's both at once.   I do think both have a place in model ship building.  If nothing else, just make sure you have fun.  

For small shapes, use escapement files (watchmakers' supplies or eBay). A piece of old hacksaw blade, softened by heating to cherry red and air cooled, makes an excellent and durable scraper.
 
Light cuts with little pressure to gradually form the moulding are best: heavy cuts will tend to wander.

Chuck, what thickness of brass do you recommend using to create the shaper ?

You can unfortunately not buy the beaded molding any longer.  That was a long time ago that I bought those.   Basically you need to create a profile in a piece of sheet brass.or a straight razor.  See below...its pretty clear.  There are many ways to create the profile...needle files,  dremel cut off wheel etc.   I am sure others will chime in here.  
 

 

 

 

 

 
Chuck