allanyed
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Cant frame R+S
allanyed replied to Don Case's topic in Building, Framing, Planking and plating a ships hull and deck
Don, The 28 inch room and space only applies to main frames for your ship. From Goodwin, page 23, "The 'room and space' was reduced in the vicinity of the cants, so that the angle could be decreased in the run forward or aft." Allan -
Click on my avatar then click on message. No need this time as I just PM'd you. Allan
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Lev, There are a number of plans on the 'net that you can use as a start. Easiest way for me for making any boat for the mother vessel is to make a plug to the inside dimensions of the frames then add the frames over the plug (not gluing them to the plug of course), then plank, remove from the plug, then add the other internals. There are a number of threads on this here at MSW. Feel free to PM me and I can send you more details on one way of doing this. I am sure there are others here that can give you additional proven ways to go about this. Allan
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Cotrecerf Page 383 in Caruana's Volume II of The History of British Sea Ordnance goes into a lot of detail. A short synopsis --- Wrought iron double thimbles were attached to the neck of the button. This is documented in the first edition of Falconer's Marine Dictionary (T. Cadell, London, 1769) where it is stated that the middle of the breeching is seized to the thimble of the pommillion. The so-called Burney edition of Falconer, published by Cadell in 1815 is more specific but obviously very out of date, stating that the breeching is fixed by reeving it through a thimble strapped upon the cascabel. Long before 1815, the ring was cast as part of the barrel. It goes on to say that double thimbles made their first general appearance in the 1765 Ordnance Store Regulation. He gives some detail on single and double thimbles and straps (strops) that were wormed, parceled, and served including sizes of the thimbles for various size guns. These were not universal in use as the more traditional means of attachment at the time was a wrap around the cascabel or the c-nt splice. And yes he does use the complete proper word rather than what he calls the bowdlerisation to cont splice used by Simmons in the Sea Gunners Vade Mecum. Hope this helps. Allan
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Chocked frames
allanyed replied to Don Case's topic in Building, Framing, Planking and plating a ships hull and deck
Don, there is a LOT to the sizes and shapes of the chocks. The futtocks have different sided dimensions as you move up from floor to second futtock, first futtock to third futtock, &c. The chocks likewise have to be shaped to match these sided dimensions. There is also the bevel of the frame so the cut into the futtocks and the sides of the chocks that are glued to the futtocks need to match this angle as well. As to the length, I THINK this varied at different times. Hopefully the drawings at NMM will give you a good idea of the ratio of the sizes of each portion of the chock to the moulded dimension of the frame. One example is at https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/80749.html For a VERY detailed explanation on how to properly make these (and alternative solutions on later pages), David Antscherl's Volume I of The Fully Framed Model pages 83-88 is a fantastic source. Allan -
Cotrecerf I had never heard of this arrangement before so it is good to know about this possibility. For the English, the Armstrong long guns had no ring based on sources I have seen in the past but I my main sources on this are mostly Lavery's Arming and Fitting and Caruana's The History of English Sea Ordnance. I plan to go through both again to see if they reference such a contrivance. I can't imagine that the Oxford would describe such a design without some reliable contemporary source so definitely worth a further look. Allan
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Any hard non porous wood with small to no grain should be OK. I would avoid walnut as it is very porous and grainy. I know the kits almost all use this wood but they have to be concerned with getting out a decent product at a reasonable price. I love castello but it's gotten very expensive and hard to find these days. Cherry and Swiss pear are good choices if you don't mind a reddish hull. Maple could be good depending on the type and the amount of grain in the pieces you would be getting to work with. Lately there have been more folks using bass wood and some types of spruce with very good results. Depending on the year of the ship, if it is to have a white bottom you can use holly for the lower planking or just go with painting. I am sure you will be getting a lot of good information based on members own experiences. Allan
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Vince, Phil, The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War 1600-1825 is by Brian Lavery. Goodwin's most sought after book is also a great book to have, that is the Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War 1650-1850 Similar titles but totally different information in each. Both are in my top 10 when it comes to actually be used as references. Allan
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Joachim, The "thimble" or breeching ring came about for English ships on guns by Carron (Carronades) about 1779. Armstrong pattern long guns did not have the breeching ring, but by 1787 Blomefield pattern long guns did have them, so their presence is dependent on the year of your particular ship. I don't know if this is comparable to other nations. If you can let us know what size cannon and what year, more detailed information may be available. Allan
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Graham, Your decision to give it a go is a very good one. Once you have done this one time you will have a good understanding. The tutorials should help you a lot on marking out the widths at each frame/bulkhead. It is as simple as taking a piece of card and holding against the bulk head from top to bottom to get the full length, then dividing into the number of strakes of plank to go on to get the width. Little errors can be corrected on subsequent planks. Allan
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Dan is correct in that the planks need to be tapered at the bow plus they need to widen at the stern. If this is a two layer model the first layer does not to be done this way but makes very good practice for the second layer of planking. If the planking you show is the only layer it should be taken off and started again. You will need to figure the number of strakes then mark the spacing at the stern, midships and at the bow plus a number of frames in between then use these to have the width of the plank at the various points. Study the planking tutorials here at MSW for details on doing this. The tutorials by David Antscherl and by Chuck Passaro are extremely helpful. Allan
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Phil, Note that Chuck has posted here at MSW that Syren is no longer making and selling rope. Allan
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If the glue is CA, try a good soaking/rubbing with acetone. This may even loosen the joint so you can replace the piece and replace with a new piece and glue with PVA which is easier to clean up with water while wet or alcohol once dry. Allan
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Mike, About which schooner/year/nationality are you asking? Allan
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Phil Great job on the spread sheets!!!! I have no idea if these are appropriate for the Dutch fleet but lacking other information these could be a big help for Marcus and many others of us. If the Dutch ship on this thread is set up with similar sizes as the British, your spread sheet looks to be very close. For other sizes and eras it should be noted from what I can find in Lees other multipliers should be used. The 2.23 multiplier applies to all rates from 1773 to 1794. This is very close for the 1639 time frame of Marcus' ship which would have been 2.24, at least for British ships. Calculating the mast height, depending on time period and rate, was sometimes based on the beam, keel length, lower deck length and depth in the hold. Differences, depending on rate and era could be as much as 8 feet or more for the same size ship. Allan
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Vertical planking
allanyed replied to allanyed's topic in Building, Framing, Planking and plating a ships hull and deck
The following is part of an email I received earlier today after going over several oddities regarding the Charles Galley with Richard Endsor. I had also asked about the the extra gun ports on a draught from NMM that does not coincide with the Van De Velde drawing or the gun establishment at that time. Allan As I remember the extra gunports were added to the gundeck following criticism by Henry Sheers. The odd vertical lines shown by V de V on the Charles Galley are probably a result of her poor and very lightweight construction. The toptimbers are probably exposed with board filling the gaps between. That is my best guess. -
I have been starting a little reading in Richard Endsor's book The Master Shipwright's Secrets and came across a drawing by Van De Velde the Elder of the Charles Galley 1676 a 32 gun fifth rate. Between what I think would be the drift rail and the sheer rail appears to be vertical planking of some sort or perhaps balusters. If this is planking I doubt that this would be the only planking as many pieces would be in the space between top timbers so my question is, would this be a decorative laminate, balusters or something else that goes over the planking that would normally be in this area? I would be grateful for a chance to see or hear of any other contemporary information from members regarding this feature. TIA Allan
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It has all been said above, but I want to add my congratulations on a job superbly done!! I hope to see a new project by you here at MSW in the very near future. Allan
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Edward First - Welcome to MSW!!! USUALLY the standing rigging is dark brown or close to black and the running rigging tan or beige. To figure the line diameter, wrap the line around a ruler for an inch and count the number of wraps and divide into 1 which will give you the diameter. There are very few rigging line suppliers available anymore so you may have to just go with thread that is close in color and size from your local fabric store or look on the internet. You can try to contact the kit manufacturer as well. As you are new, making your own rope may not be something you want to get into,,,,,, yet. Allan
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If this was a British vessel, the ratios of the ropes all wind back to the masts which wind back to the size of the ship. Lacking better information, these ratios for all the lines on your vessel can be calculated if you choose to use the information for British ships. You can use Lees' Masting and Rigging tables as well as look at the chart available here at MSW prepared by Dan Vadas which was based on Lees ratios and will give you the rope circumference of every line. Be aware though that Dan's information is the same as Lees for ships after 1711 but he used the wrong formula for the length of the main mast for earlier ships thus all subsequent sizes for spars ropes, etc. are not accurate. Still, at model scales the rope sizes may be quite close to what you need. Allan
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George, I am pretty sure the vertical dashed lines are the edge of the frames that extend up to the cap rail, these frame top timbers forming the sides of the gun ports. The planks between the ports are indeed short pieces of thin quickwork. The horizontal dashed lines look to be nothing more than decorative wooden caps over the ports in place of having the cap rail run continuously over the ports which was common. Allan
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Druxey When there are both internal and external expansion drawings on the same page, do you know if the top was internal (facing left) with starboard planking and the lower external also showing the starboard side (pointing right)as the standard presentation? Example of the HMS Squirrel can be seen at https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/83495.html Thanks! Allan
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Sorry Michael, but HMS Hawke indeed appears to have planks at the bow from 6 feet to about 8 feet long. I assume the draftsman had the proper information and that these lengths are correct, but hopefully a member will be able to resolve this for you if the drawing is incorrect. I don't know if there was any rule on any plank on a given strake regarding minimum length. There are no hull plank length dimensions given in the Establishments, Steel, or the Shipbuilder's Repository. Allan
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Michael, Look on the RMG Collections site and you will find plank expansion drawings. You will see the butt patterns for both external planking and ceiling/sealing planking on a number of ships. https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections.html#!csearch;searchTerm=plank_expansion Allan
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I take it that they give two pieces as the top of the mast should be square versus round. While the top portion was often cut square it started with round stock rather than being an add on. You may want to try starting with square stock and the forming an octagon with a small plane, then rounding the entire length. Then with hobby knife, chisels, files and/or sandpaper, whatever you have in your arsenal, form the square section. To simplify you can use a 1/4" or 6mm dowel that matches the entire length you need and cut/file/sand the tapered square section at the top. The round portion will also have to be given flats on the port and starboard sides for the cheeks and/or hounds. Allan
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