Jaager

On 5/3/2024 at 4:41 PM, Scottish Guy said:

Part 11 (first plank to the spine)

About 1000 years later, and on carvel planking, this plank is the garboard plank. 

OK, I just checked Leather  (CLINKER BOATBUILDING,  John Leather, IMP, 1973)  and  Simmons (LAPSTRAKE BOATBUILDING , Walter Simmons, IMP, 1978)

 and they both name it the garboard.

If it is any consolation, here is a quote from Simmons:  "The garboard that I am considering at the moment is a plank with considerable fore and aft twist, and it requires more work to fit properly than any other plank on the boat.  To make it fit to the rabbet as well as to fixed lining marks can stir up ulcers."

Michael,  are you considering a scratch build of a viking boat?  If so, I have some factors about the planking that different from what Billing and Amati burden a builder with.

So far, this kit seems to be fulfilling its primary purpose,  your introduction into all this,  and a beginning indication for what you need to learn.  You should probably use tunnel vision and view this kit as a unique world unto itself.

The Wood-Database does not have much specific for your part of the world.  I would try to find a local hardwood sawmill and see if they have a local wood that is fine texture, no pores large enough to see, straight grain.  Something that looks like Oak or Elm that has been scaled down 50 times.  If you use actual Oak, the grain, pores, and texture will be 50-100 times too large.

There is no tree species with grain that small.  It could not transport water thru tubes that small.  There are however species that are a whole lot closer to scale than is any nutwood.

Basswood and Linden have excellent grain characteristics, but their surface is soooo fuzzy.

No way would I pay that much for a machine like that.  I would question its ability to move enough air to do the job.

For in the house - at the bench - I use a Kenmore Blue Magic small canister vac.  It uses a collection bag - which is a pain, but otherwise does the job.

The handle at the end of the hose has the ON-OFF - which is a slide power control.

I attached the handle to the end of a desk lamp  arm (less the bulb part) using cable ties.

There are desk lamps and THERE ARE DESK LAMPS -  I prefer serious articulation, a desk clamp with some mass,  and arms that will stay in position -no weak wingnuts.

The handle has some weight to it.

It took some serious jury rigging to get a hose to fit the opening in the handle and also fit the dust collection port on my Byrnes disc sander. 

I use the tablesaw and thickness sander in my garage.  They are not about finesse.  The disc sander is.

An additional advantage is that it can be used to clear stair treads of dust.

The 3rd edition that I have has two foldout sheets - not all that large.  They are not what I would call plans, never mind "working plans".

The missing plans are no loss.  The book itself was bush league in its time.

The S.I. sells 1/4" scale copies of the plans in Chapelle's books.  There is a fair selection of 1850's clipper ships.

The site with downloads of the plans from Wm Webb's Folio has lines and mast/sail plans for Black Hawk - Challenge -  Comet - Flying Dutchman - Gazelle - Swordfish - Young America

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/36455-ship-plan-sources-william-h-webb-plans-and-a-japanese-topsail-schooner/

The clippers were about as large as a wooden sailing vessel could be.  This puts them in an unfortunate situation.  A model with a scale large enough to include detail is also one that will take over the room that it is in.   A model whose size is one that you can live with will require miniaturist skills.  See the work of @rwiederrich in the scratch section for a view of what is involved.

Pine is good.  I use a lot of it.

There is another wood that is worth a look.  Goodreau Sawmill & Woodworking has Yellow Poplar that costs about the same as their White Pine.

If your focus was a couple hundred years earlier - they also have Hard Maple, Black Cherry, Beech.

They also have the usual nutwood species whose grain and open pores do not scale.

I would place a bet that you will come to regret  having a large solid wood carved hull.  The rules that Dana Wegner developed for USN museum acquisitions - rules that specify a hollow hull, are probably the result of lessons paid for from disasters reflected by solid hulls.

1 hour ago, Gregory said:

What do they look like?

I agree.  Going back to the baseline and defining any problem is key to getting things done correctly.

There is no standard process.  What, if any, color adjustment depends on the starting material.

There are lots of How To articles covering block making.  An easy method for mass production and minimal individual block manipulation is a goal for many.

One possible beginning:

If you have plastic blocks from a kit -  then perhaps using a series of coats of a dilute enamel paint that is the desired wood shade?  

String the blocks on wire and dip them over and over?  Light touch as far as pigment density per coat?   On small  blocks - I see brush application being frustrating.  Using an aerosol application on a sphere - a lot of manipulation of the target - awkward manipulation.     

46 minutes ago, Frank Burroughs said:

Alcoholic walnut stain for all the blocks.  Is solvent based the same as alcoholic base?

The first generation acrylic paints had icky surface texture - like chalk- the paintings that I saw - I did not care for the look. But the molecules are hydrophilic. They play nice with water.  Alcohol and acrylic molecules may not play nice together - or - a shade that is a mixture of pigments may have some molecules having a different affinity and the color come out different.

The lack of precision in the use of terminology leads to confusion and misunderstanding.

A dye has a solvent.  It is a true solution. individual molecules evenly dispersed in the solvent.  No settling, no change in content over time.  Where the solvent goes, the dye molecules also go.

A stain has a vehicle.  The pigment particles - a clump of pigment molecules - are temporarily suspended in the liquid carrier.  They settle out if left alone.  They stay on the surface of wood.

The dyes that I am familiar with are hydrophilic - they dissolve in water or alcohol - I think alcohol is preferable for scale work.  Surface fibers of wood do not swell with alcohol, they do with wood.

Some old style stains are organic solvent based.  Think of them as semi transparent paints that are wood colored.  Some stains must also contain dyes if they are featured as being "penetrating".

I suspect that an acrylic stain - if such exist - will use water as a carrier - an awful prospect to imagine as far as ending with a smooth surface.

I wonder if the fanatics who ban VOC products use water in their engines? 

Dyes are for high quality wood.  As with a fabric dye, the internal substance of the wood becomes the new color.  The grain is unaffected.  Other than the color, the surface is unaffected.  PVA still bonds it.

Stains are for wood with unremarkable grain.  The pigment sits on the surface.   I think a stain will either need a clear overcoat (a varnish - in the original meaning of that word - before there was commercial anything doing that)  or will also contain a polymerizing clear component (varnish stain) or a plastic (polyurethane).  

Phil,  @GrandpaPhil

AAMM is the source for another (two actually) Polar ship  -but South Pole  -  L'Astrolabe   (and her sister La Zelee).

The S.I.  has plans for the four USN Polar explorers at the South Polar region at the same time -  Vincennes, Porpose II,  Peacocok II  

- the Flying Fish -ex. Independance pilot schooner that is the S.I. plan is also available for free-  the John McKeon from the Wm H. Webb folio.  -  to actually match Flying Fish the breadth needs to be increased 20' 7" to 22' 6',  the depth 7' 6" to 8' 8" ,  the length 70'  to 85' 6"    Increasing the Body plan by 110% is all that the breadth and depth require.   Increasing the length by a fixed percent is not without some unwanted distortion.  Just increasing the breadth alone and making the 54 spaces 8" instead of 6" lengthens the hull without distorting the stem and stern.

Beagle also took a shot at the region I believe.  For this, I think starting with ZAZ5137 and following  Marquardt's demonstration of the alterations.....

This ship is a subject of a AAMM monograph. 

The plans are 3 sheets and the scale is 1/75.

If the OcCre plans are not as complete as they could be, this is a ready source for details.

As with the other AAMM Age of Sail subjects, the plans are designed for a carved hull build.

The lines are more than enough for a POB build.  There are enough points for a standard plotting of frames for POF - but no buttock lines.

To my eye, the frigate itself is an excellent example of the last of the pure sail warships.  When efficiency was  the primary guiding factor of the design.

Here is the description from the AAMM shop:

"La Belle-Poule
first rank frigate (1834 - 1861)

2 hours ago, kurtvd19 said:

I don't often mention Harbor Freight but for some stuff they are pretty good.

I have found that the HF 4" ratcheting bar clamp - the one with the large wingnut - is the only one that I have tried that really works.

The HF model with a small wingnut, the MM variety, the Widget Supply model, the expensive Irwin 4'' - none of these will apply any appreciable pressure.

Plus, the trigger tends to break.

If the object being held can stand the pressure,  Kelly clamps become No Mar holders if a piece of used IV tubing is slipped over the teeth.

What with the close tolerance there is pressure even with thin wall Tygon.

I do not know what helping hands cost now,  but recommendations have been made here for fly tying vises.  Some at the site of this link are not expensive:

J.Stockard Fly Fishing

Tanganika  does not bring up any result on the Wood Database.

It appears to be a advertising catchall name for whichever wood the African wood supplier could provide that day.

Walnut is a wood with a similarly misleading name.  It is about the color, definitely not actual tree.  one of many African Mahogany-like species.

If the pattern holds, the Maple may be Obeche - especially if it is soft.

All are probably coarse grain, brittle/friable, open pore,

I predict that none of it will be rewarding to work.  That it will fight you all of the way.

Ideal is a variety of low cost readily available domestic species that are hard to very hard, straight grain, fine texture, no pores.  

For POB, the lower volume of wood needed allows some leeway on affordable prices for substitutes.  For POF, volume for framing stock is significant.

Shellac using a piece of a worn out tee shirt.  One coat for a flat Age of Sail deck.  More coats, more gloss.

It is the scanner that alters.   The printer replicates what the file saved is.  Just as long as the "fit to frame" box is not checked  in the print command window. Just as long as the page/canvas in the graphics program document file in use is exactly the size of the paper that the printer is set for.

I have a canvas as a stock document that I always use. It is as close to being exactly 8.5x14 as I could make it.  For everyone else, I guess 8.5x11.  I lacquer coat my patterns, doing this is not being a fun thing, I aim for fewer pages, thus the larger page,  an expensive choice.  There is a huge difference in price per ream.

The numbers that I came up with:  8.5x11   2197 pixels x 1701 pixels  and   8.5x14   2796 pixels x 1701 pixels.

I added a scan of a 15cm clear ruler.  Metric is easier for the scale adjustment math.    I selected the background and CUT, so that the layer is transparent except for the scale hash marks.   I scaled it in my graphics program (Painter - because I already had it) until a printout was identical to the original.  For a long time, I included the 15cm ruler bar at a horizontal edge and a vertical edge of every page as a check. 

For a home scan, the first thing to scan is a clear background ruler.   Once you determine the scale factor adjustment of your scanner, it will be a constant for that machine.

For outside scans, there must be a known distance on the page. 

I do all of my lofting at 1/4" : 1' .    I found a 1/4" scale on the Web.  I made it its own layer.  I selected the background and CUT, so that the layer is transparent except for the scale hash marks.

I had to adjust the scale of the layer until a printout was identical to the 1/4" scale on my triangular architects ruler.

So, every outside scan is has its known distance compared with my 1/4" layer.  When my scale adjustment has it match what I want it to be, every print has bee accurate.

When you adjust a scan, ALWAYS do it on a duplicate layer. Do not risk the original.  Chain adjustments can get out of control very rapidly.  If the first factor is not enough or too much, delete the duplicate layer.  Make a new duplicate and adjust that.  Write down every new number of scrap paper,  your memory will fail you. 

Well, the original Italian kit mfg who developed the POB method - named them "bulkheads".  The very name of the method uses it  POB  Plank on bulkhead.

Bulkhead is a complete part of how it is described.   But it is not an actual bulkhead   Steel ships have bulkheads.  Wooden Chinese seagoing junks had bulkheads.  If Titanic had been built with actual bullheads - instead of the transverse barriers stopping short of being chambers that could be sealed, it may have floated long enough and level enough for a more organized abandonment or even help from something large.   As for yachts, is it that they are molded more than a frame?  Thinner than a frame?  Are there yachts built like a submarine with dogged hatches in a barrier across the hull that allows it to be a series of isolated cells?

An actual bulkhead is an integral part of the internal structure of a vessel.  In POB,  it is just the shape inside the hull at the station where it is - thus a mold (mould).  The midline support is not a keel.  It is a central spine.  These pretentious names "bulkhead" and "keel"  help with advertising  and salesman hooks.  They are too inculcated to be changed for most kit builders.  But, just like calling a yard - a "yardarm" - calling the part a bulkhead or keel  outside its kit realm is a reflection of depth of knowledge.

My apologies if I am missing the questions  or covering something already addressed.

Naming these particular components "bulkheads" often leads to misunderstanding.  They are molds.  They stay in the model for most models of decked ships.  They are not seen, so it does not matter.   This model is a clinker built open boat.  The molds are temporary forms - or at least they should be.  I would build it the same way as I would any model of an open boat.

I did not see any plans' preview on the Billing site, so I have no knowledge of what is with this one.

A central spine - the top of which stops where the actual keel meets the garboard plank.  A series of molds to give support and temporary shape to the planking.  When it has done its job, it is discarded - I mean the spine and the attached molds.

The actual keel sits on the spine.  The P&S garboards bond to it.  The subsequent rows of planking added - row two P&S - row three P&S, etc.  Doing just one side to completion and then the other is very bad practice.  Continuously check for bilateral symmetry.  Adjust as necessary. 

I have seen Viking hulls with totally misunderstood planking runs.  One such was a cover story on the last series of Ships in Scale.  The problem was that the extreme upturn of the planking at the bow and stern are an illusion.  No real planks can turn up like that.  There was a gentile sheer.  The up turn was a carving.  It started at the rail and lower-  an elaborate stem - not  just a rabbet.

The spine and molds can be any material that will hold up.  They are disposable.  Actually for the scratch, they can be a carved sold Pine mold,  carved horizontal layers,  carved transverse layers - which ever fits your style.

The ribs for the model go in after the planked shell is completed.  Unlike carvel, they cannot be bent or heat bent*.  The "Z"  of the planking requires pattern work to get a fit. 

Anything ferrous on a model is a disaster.  It rusts , stains, and dissolves away.  On a static model, you will not live long enough to see it - unless someone invents a Niven Autodoc real soon.

Soft brass wire, or given its rapid rate of tarnish - soft copper wire - a possibly interesting color  better than bright brass on a Dark Ages beasty.  Having nothing instead of roves works too.

I would consider the tricky structures on the inside of the keel to be a keelson-  attached along the keel  - not of the keel.

*(Heat allows the lignin to be manipulated.  Water does not dissolve it.  If it did, trees would melt. Steam is just a messy way to apply heat at model scale. It swells the surface fibers.  For full size timbers - it is necessary.) 

I find that an easy way is to scroll down to "Who's on line"   set the cursor on a red or pink? name.  A window should open.  Click on message, filling the blanks and type the message.

With a plan of the bowsprit, it is just a matter of figuring out how to match.

Wooden kit plans are obligated to show WHAT should be done.  If they do not, that kit is flawed.

Explicit instructions for every step are the need for a beginner kit.  The more sophisticated kits do not need them so much.  The procedures and skills are variations of what has already been learned.  At least this is my take on the situation.  

The OcCre site lists HMS Beagle as being "medium difficulty".  A significant degree of prior experience is expected.   The instructions should not be expected to include what should a part of a builder's skill set going in.  If jumping ahead rather than paying the dues has not worked out,  storing the advanced kit and going to a beginner kit series should fix the situation.

For Beagle's bowsprit -   Here is the interpretation of the structure done by Karl Heinz Marquardt :

Underhill's books appear to be still available from the original publisher's web site in the UK  Brown, Son and Ferguson

His plans are also there - almost all are later 19th and early 20th century subjects

https://www.skipper.co.uk/catalogue/books/page

https://www.skipper.co.uk/catalogue/item/masting-and-rigging  L 22

https://www.skipper.co.uk/catalogue/item/plank-on-frame-models-and-scale-masting-rigging-volume-1  L 25

https://www.skipper.co.uk/catalogue/item/plank-on-frame-models-and-scale-masting-rigging-volume-2  L 20

https://www.skipper.co.uk/catalogue/item/deep-water-sail L 30

https://www.skipper.co.uk/catalogue/item/sailing-ship-rigs-and-rigging L 16

Both ANCRE books are " available" 

as written, the shipping is so high that I will no longer consider any purchase.

They need a US agent, and not one focused on avarice  - cough NIP cough

https://ancre.fr/en/14-basic-books

AN INTRODUCTION TO PLANKED ON FRAME SCALE MODEL SHIP BUILDING
AN INTRODUCTION TO PLANKED ON FRAME SCALE MODEL SHIP BUILDING “DOCKYARD STYLE”
An introduction to Planked on frame model ship building through more than 200 pages illustrated by approximately 500 colour photographs and captions.
 This guide includes explanations on all the techniques used during the construction of a model.
EAN : 9791096873920
Model MODELA
En stock
    Print
Author : Adrian SOROLLA translation by GILLES KORENT
49 Euro

The Art of Shipmodeling - Bernard Frolich
The Art of Shipmodeling describes the author's experience and methods in 300 pages abundantly illustrated with numerous drawings, sketchs and more than 600 commentated photos.
Model LART
En stock
    Print
Author : Bernard Frölich
89 Euro

Just starting out, you cannot know which shapes will be useful and which are of little or no use.   And that determination is individual - different for each of us.

It looks to me that you have done what is economical and practical.  Time, and use will show you which shapes are your favorite.  If or when these wear out or dull,

you can visit jewelers supply houses and buy quality individual files.

When you get to wood for the whole project, masting will be a minor portion of the whole.  Different needs and challenges at every stage.  When comes the time,

try to avoid seducing yourself into something too ambitious.  

For a PhD, the old stats were 50% of those who start get to the dissertation only level and only 15% complete to the degree.  It is not that the course work is all that difficult,  it is not.  The faculty is on your side.  They help and encourage.  It is that the process is an endurance test.   I am not unsure that wooden ship model building - especially scratch is not an even more challenging endurance test.

I like CML   https://www.cmlsupply.com/bright-finish/

I aim for USA made if it is a choice for bits  no economy to be had here.

What are you using to drive the bits?

I don't think that you really want any of the three of them.

It is difficult for any single book to cover more than a specific era  for model construction methods.   Anything broad tends to be superficial.

The two volumes of the Ship Modeler's Shop notes are gems taken from the NRJ.

The basic skills are covered in logs or technical forums here - sometimes a chore to find -  but also to see variations on the theme.  There ain't no single "answer to it".

To stay out of a fugue state - it helps to specialize.  Once you specialize, your books should be reprints of contemporary books or books that show the actual practice.

Find out what was actually done and try as best you can to duplicate it at model scale.

Gaasbeek comes from a very special time.  WWI era.  There is also Estep and Desmond  and  then Charles Davis' misleading application of what was done for WWI as being relevant to any time before then.   For 20th century large wooden vessels - they are OK sources.   Except for a failed and panic based effort to overcome the U boat sinking of bulk carriers by using wooden hulls,  most large wooden vessels from then on were fantasy based replicas famous historical vessels.   These methods are much more reflective of iron and steel engineered hulls than the construction methods from the Age of Sail. 

HHS - High Speed Steel    oops -  HSS

I think that the major categories are steel  and carbide.  Not for files but for cutters.  For drill bits - with what we do and the small diameters we use - there is wiggle and flex - carbide is not flexible it may stay sharp a lot longer than steel but any lateral stress breaks it. 

For files  it is diamond vs steel   the steel files do have some bend to them, but they object to being bent over the work like a Japanese garden bridge.  Down force at both ends and work resistance in the middle and heat from friction  and a good quality file becomes two pieces.    It cost me  either a Vallorbe Glardon  or Contenti or Grobet or Vigor  file to learn that lesson.

Diamond must be easier and less expensive to produce than working grooves into hard steel.  The needle file On Sale deals are mostly diamond coated.  I bet that the metal that supports the diamonds ain't the best.

Unless the color is not appropriate, using it 'As Is' will work;   no treatment is necessary.    If darker is the goal, a wood dye will do the job.

Blue Mold is not like the fungus that turned a trunk of Apple that I had not prepared correctly into meal. 

Oxalic acid does work.  I used it on a door of an old book case, Took it back to looking like fresh cut wood.  It was an antique - extreme refinishing was a bad idea - destroyed any value,  but the stuff worked.

As far as I can tell, Blue Mold is benign except for the color thing.  If only we could save all of the infected Holly and off-white Holly from going to the breakers and buy it.