AON
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I seem to recall reading that the larger carronade balls were hollow to make them lighter to handle but the weight label stayed as was referencing the diameter of the ball. -
Lieste had mentioned a figure in Winfield of an 80 gun ship with two carronades and four guns on the forecastle. The only book I have by Rif Winfield is The 50-Gun Ship and the figure is not in that. I found a copy of the very expensive (almost $500) book British Warships in the Age of Sail, 1793–1817: Design, Construction, Careers and Fates by Rif Winfield on Google that allowed viewing of a very few selected pages. Lieste confirmed this was the book and he sent me the image which is of HMS Foundroyant launched in 1788. THANK YOU! She also had the 6 carronades on the Roundhouse. The count of 80 guns excluded the carronades. They were extra. Carronades were not counted unless they replaced guns. What is really nice is the image shows a top view of the deck with the guns so there is no question as to their location. Via Google I found an image of HMS Illustrious in the selected viewing pages of the book. She is a 74 gun ship launched in 1799, and she has the extra ports on the forecastle for carronades. I also found HMS Swiftsure of 1800, an 80 gun ship with the extra ports.
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I can sleep well tonight. I found one image of the 74 gun Illustrious in that era that has the gun ports in the same pattern as the 80 gun ship Lieste just sent me. THANK YOU! I will post images tomorrow as 4am to 10pm is a long day for me. Good night all.
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I have been searching Bellerophon, Elephant and Goliath but from 1786 to 1800. The point you make about the opposite ordnance is very interesting.
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The documents mentioned in my above posting are ADM 52/2752, ADM 52/2779 and ADM 52/3359. I never thought there was anything but the 74 guns. I never searched further once I found she wasn't on the list of ships issued carronades. Then I discovered the swivel guns. Now there are the carronades. So short answer is no I hadn't but now I shall. How did you know they mentioned the guns before got your hands on copies? were they posted on PRO to read?
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Can you post that portion of the image? I'd very much like to see it. In my mind I can visualize the carronade mounted on the cat tail beam that runs athwartships aft of the head and on top of the forecastle deck as I see the cat tail beam might be an impediment to the carriage of the 9 Pdr cannon. Then the other concern might possibly be the bowsprit, jib boom and yards rigging being in the line of fire(???) .
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I received a response from Kews. They sent me links to help me search. I spent 3 hours searching from 4AM to 7AM. I found 3 documents, masters logs for the periods of 1790-91, 1793-94 and 1794-95. These may or may not have any mention of guns and there placement. I did not find any mention of Ordnance or Gunner's records for this ship or her sister ships. I tried looking at models and figures at NMM.... I hate the new layout.
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Yes please.
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I copied out the documents in an attempt to zoom in to read but that made them a little fussy. As best I can tell it reads that the 74`s had 12 Pdr carronades fore and aft in 1779. I have a statement from the boy that the 74 I`m interested in had 18 Pdr aft and 32 Pdr forward. If I can get this as a document from the gunner (his father) and it gives the location other than ``forecastle`` I`m golden.
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Yes Mark (and Druxey) I've read that also. I've also read a listing of ships that had carronades... and the Bellerophon was not on the list... but then how was it they got tossed if they weren't there and why would the "youngster" , the gunner's son, say 74's had 82 guns when he was on the Bellerophon with his father? I'll read your images when I get inside and on my computer... on my phone at the moment.
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Morgan, I`ve contacted The National Archives (Kews) to attempt to get the records by John Hindmarsh Sr. , the first gunner assigned to Bellerophon. He was with her for about 10 years. Their web page states a 10 day wait for a response is typical. This I do not mind as I am quite some way from installing any guns. I hope they have something. If not I`ll ask about the sister ships in the same time period. Thank you.
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The other option which seems obvious except for one thing is found on the forecastle deck plan The 9 Pdr cannon locations are in red. I see two cutouts at the head... indicated in blue. The only problem being that if this is the location it is over top of the cathead/tail beam.
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Below is an image of the Goliath forecastle. The blue arrows are the locations of the 9 Pdrs even though the aft gun location has a rail drawn through it. The blue arrow might be the location for the carronade. There is one other possible location further aft where you see a similar gap between deadeyes which offers more room between guns than that of the blue arrow between the red arrows. These two possibilities are speculation on my point.
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Thank you Allan. I have been looking at RMG/NMM images and models. If they show anything the carronade is replacing the cannon not used in conjunction with it. The exact time period would be 1786-1790 but anything showing the location of carronades on the forecastle in conjunction with the 4 x 9 Pdrs c.1800 would be useful.
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The book From Powder Monkey to Governor (c. 1800) states "I don't know why they called them 74's when they had 82 guns. The 74 guns are: 28 x 32 Pdr guns on the lower deck 28 x 18 Pdr guns on the upper deck 14 9 Pdr (short) guns on the quarterdeck 4 x 9 Pdr (long) guns on the forecastle In addition they had the following 8 guns to bring the number up to 82: 6 x 18 Pdr carronades on the poop (roundhouse) 2 x 32 Pdr carronades on the forecastle So the carronades did not replace any of the cannons. I can see where the 4 long 9 Pdrs were located on the roundhouse (poop). My question is: where were the 2 x 32 Pdr carronades located on the forecastle?
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I decided to paint the 3D printed guns I presently have before the wife uses up my can of spray paint on some other project... then put them back into storage. First up were the swivel guns. I had to figure out how to hold them... then spotted the Styrofoam sheet in my "keep" pile. So as the part of the forked support stanchion that sets into the wood swivel gun mounting chock does not need to be painted I simple stuck it into the Styrofoam. This sat on the rotating pedestal inside a cardboard box to catch any over spray. A light spray with a acrylic flat black while rotating the pedestal., then let it dry, then repeat a few times. Now to do the cannons... first up are the 18 Pdrs.
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YIKES! HECK OF A LESSON TO LEARN. BETTER TO LEARN IT FROM SOMEONE ELSE. THANKS! 🙄
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Blow out? What happened?
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As per the document supplied by Lieste earlier - "The Carronade" by Geoff B. Bailey (Falkirk Local History Society): Very few had the royal cypher. They should have a broad arrow to show that they had been proofed by the Navy.
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Here the model is done. I will make the base pieces in wood. I will scale this 3D model down to 1:64 for the 32 Pdr and then then again at 75% for the 18 Pdr, create my STL file and get them resin printed.
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Oh. I had the impression you must be some multi-billionaire 🤑 Thought possibly you might want to adopt me. But if you're not made of money..... 🙄
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Thank you Druxey... that is one expensive book!
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Yes, I see that the 18 Pdr bore was 5.14" in 1780 and 5.16" in 1800. My point is that this is 0.0803" vs. 0.0806" at 1:64 scale... no one will care about this slight difference on the model. the 32 Pdr did not change
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here is a view from the rear
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Here is my model of the barrel. I am going to create the remainder of the parts via 3D modelling and resin print them.
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