HMCSS Victoria 1855 by Banyan - 1:72

[KeithAug]

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

that sounds, as if the drill-bit is dull .

Eberhard, I also had that thought but I also thought that at that temperature the brass would be starting to glow. My experience is that it is very difficult to silver solder very thin brass as the flame is apt to melt the brass. Perhaps Pat could help us with more detail on his soldering process and soldering material.

[BANYAN]

Thanks for the comments guys.

 

Keith, I did try that with mixed results (unless I can do it consistently the ...)  - I found the hole was so close in and at .6mm (has to be that size) there is very little meat left to solder to, so I thought drilling post soldering a better option - perhaps wrong approach so will experiment again.

 

Eberhard, you're probably right.  I did have a set of bits (from a German manufacturer/retailer) that were optimised for brass but I found they kept breaking to easily and at their very high cost have reverted to HSS bits.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[BANYAN]

Hi again Keith, posts crossed in the ether.

 

I use resistance soldering, so at a low setting it melts either 145degree or 179 degree silver solder quite well.  When drilling there is no glow developing at all, I put my finger on the band near the lug being drilled and if I feel heat developing I stop.  However, it appears that the solder softens and either the drill bit edges grab the lug and pull it off while warm, or the heat is greater than I thought?

 

cheers

 

Pat

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Hi again Keith, posts crossed in the ether.

 

I use resistance soldering, so at a low setting it melts either 145degree or 179 degree silver solder quite well.  When drilling there is no glow developing at all, I put my finger on the band near the lug being drilled and if I feel heat developing I stop.  However, it appears that the solder softens and either the drill bit edges grab the lug and pull it off while warm, or the heat is greater than I thought?

 

cheers

 

Pat

Is it possible to drill them out prior to soldering, and then just run a drill through to clean them up afterwards?

 

Rob

[wefalck]

Ah, you use low-melt solder, not silver-soldering with a torch ...

 

Do you a picture of the item ?

[KeithAug]

7 hours ago, BANYAN said:

at a low setting it melts either 145degree or 179 degree silver solder quite well. 

Pat, makes it a lot more understandable now.

Also PCB bits are very sharp and while being fragile are relatively cheap. Might be worth a try.

Edited June 1, 2022 by KeithAug

[BANYAN]

Hi Eberhard and Keith, thanks again for your most welcome suggestions. 

 

Eberhard, there is a piccy at post https://modelshipworld.com/topic/14596-hmcss-victoria-1855-by-banyan-172/?do=findComment&comment=906095 

This shows the ears before trimming etc.  I am try to drill such that the OD edge is about .5mm from joint - I deliberately left them extended to facilitate drilling and planned to trim the ears back and shape them by filing.  BTW, the solder is marked as 'silver' solder and seems to have good holding power.

 

Keith, I had a heap of those but got rid of them as they were too brittle, and due to their sharp tip did not think they would be useful for brass.  Well you know the saying - 'assume' is - makes an '***' out of 'U and Me' - in this case entirely out of me   I will give them a try and see how they go.   For the very small bands, the drilled hoop with soldered eyes seems to working.

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

[liteflight]

Pat, I can see the problem!

 

As usual I do not know the whole answer, but can suggest some directions which might lead to the answer!

When a twist drill breaks through, it has a strong and inevitable tendency to “grab”, especially in brass.  Quite possibly it is this grabbing, in association with heat, that breaks the solder joint.

1. Perhaps use a drill which does not grab - ie, not a twist drill.  Examples of this are the centres of spade drills, glass drills and/ or make your own from a length of piano wire of the correct diameter (I will sketch and send later)
2. Solder in a less breakable way.  Silver solder with the correct flux and a micro flame torch ( together with extreme cleanliness) will make the joints in seconds ( and as a bonus anneal all the material so that it is softer to drill) .  Drop the hot assembly into pickling solution and viola! - soft pink and strong spider band!
3. Cheat royally!  - make the lugs of the spider band of small “U” shaped wire bends so that they are born with a hole.  Solder as above and if necessary flatten after pickling to flatten the wire and reduce the size of the hole.

I made the jib traveller on my Thames Sailing Barge by a modification of (3).  One radial hole drilled at each lung position to fit wire lug.  U shapes bent with one Longer leg which went in the hole.  All jigged and solder soldered, pickled and cleaned up.  Bore cleaned up removing the longer legs of wire

 

I have rambled a bit.  Hope some part may be useful.  
Underwood’s book on rigging shows his method of making these - essentially a hybrid os 2and3 above with a drilled hole in the band and a nib on the Sheet lug to fit in the Hole.  Jigged with a twist of wire to hold all the lugs compressed into place and silver soldered on charcoal block

 

andrew

 

 

[KeithAug]

Pat - ref PCB drills.

I only use them on a drill stand. Freehand drilling is very difficult without imposing side loads and it is the side loads that inevitably lead to breakage.

I drill most of my thin brass sheet with PCB drills and don't find the cutting angle causes grabbing. I do however feed the drill slowly. Here drilling by machine helps because the rack on the drill feed controls the drill at the point of break trough.

Where ever possible I drill the brass with some form of backing board (usually a piece of hard wood). This also helps prevent grabbing. 
Of course these techniques / precautions to some extent depend on the geometry of the component and may therefore not always be applicable.

 

The brass I use tends to be hard brass. I hate the machine characteristics of soft brass which has a much greater tendency to grab. 

 

You comment about the description of the solder as "silver solder" is quite interesting. Over here silver solder is specific to very hard solder - usually just as hard as the metal being soldered. As Eberhard explained this typically melts at circa 600 deg c and the joint formed is just as strong as the parent metal. Low temperature non-lead based solders melt at much lower temperatures and are generally soft in comparison to the material being soldered. Because they are soft they are easily cut with a craft knife ( I am wondering if this is true of the solder you are using?). When soft solders are used to butt a thin sheet end to a plate they form a very weak joint and in my experience this inevitably fails under anything more than light pressure. 

 

By the way thank you for introducing me to resistance soldering. I hadn't come across it before but it looks quite interesting.

 

 

[BANYAN]

Thanks again for the feedback Andrew and Keith.  I think I have some solutions in mind now.

 

Andrew:  Thanks, I agree your comment re shape/angle of drill end for brass, but making my own is out of the question as I am drilling sub 0.5mm holes   Based on the comments from you all, I think I now believe that what I have been using may be  'different melt point' solder even though there is a silver content.  I will need to investigate that a bit further, but they do have some silver in it as  they are definitely a little harder to cut than standard /soft solder (but only a bit more difficult).

 

Keith:  Appreciate the further feedback mate.  Yep I do a fair bit of 'freehand' drilling using a micro motor handpiece (orthodontist type), so that is definitely one of the reasons I was/am breaking so many.  I would very much like to use my mill with its sensitive drilling attachment and indexing attachment to drill these, but I have yet to fully develop a satisfactory jig (about 85% of the idea developed) - just need to find a way to support the ears a little once set-up.  I have an idea for that (shaped wood block) but a bit distracted with other things at at the moment.  

I LOVE resistance soldering; did I tell you I L....    I can achieve the higher temps needed for true silver soldering (no flame) but only on bigger pieces (but not very large pieces (lots of surface area) where a flame is definitely needed.  I find resistance soldering so much better for controlling the flow/placement of the heat.  I can do a lot of joints in close proximity using differing melt point solders and placement of the probes.  A tad expensive to purchase initially, but it has been one of the best value-for-money and fit for purchase items I have bought over the years.  That was my retirement pressie to myself  

 

cheers

 

Pat

[KeithAug]

2 hours ago, BANYAN said:

  That was my retirement pressie to myself

Pat, there seem to be very few available on the market, which one did you buy?

[wefalck]

Thanks for the link to the pics, Pat. I didn't realise, that you were talking about those lugs, I thought it was the spider-band for belaying pins.

 

As someone suggested above, spade drills would be a good option to drill thin brass. Not sure, where you would find them Down-Under. There are also straight-fluted drills for watchmakers, but they tend to be expensive and even more difficult to find.

[BANYAN]

Thanks Eberhard.  I had a good range of drill bits (0.3 to 3.0mm) optimised for brass that I had bought from Germany; they were great but the smaller ones (as you expect) were prone to breaking easily.  Unfortunately due to their costs I have not replaced them.  Can you get spade bits down to these sizes?  I will have a look for straight fluted bits also; cost while a factor is not the driving consideration; to me, it is value for money.  If they perform well and make the job feasible, then I would buy them.  Do you have a recommended source please?  Once again, many thanks for all of the advice you have provided along the way.

 

The mast spiderbands proved relatively simply and my brass optimised bits worked great there in combo with my mill and a rotary table/block and vice.  

 

cheers

 

Pat

[BANYAN]

Hi Keith, I bought the "American Beauty" Super Chief 250 model (250 watts variable) SuperChief 250 Resistance Soldering System (americanbeautytools.com) .  I have no commercial or other connection (yada yada)  but I am very happy with the product and their support staff.  The guys were very helpful as they did not have an Aussie agent at the time.  They worked with me to provide a 240V version with probes/clips suited to my needs.  I bought the package with the tweezer type probes + two individual/separate probes + two clip leads, one with a micro clip for those smaller jobs.  A tad costly but I have found it great value for money and has made soldering smaller item a real breeze.  The blurb on the page linked above says it all I think about its usefulness.

 

Hope that helps; fire away if you need more questions etc (PM may be best)

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

 

[wefalck]

Pat, it is difficult these days to name suppliers.

 

In watchmaking, the spade drills are also called pivot-drills and they are in principle available down to 0.1 mm. Some 30 years ago I bought a few in a local (Nottingham) watchmaking supply shop.

 

The straight fluted ones are also called EUREKA-drills after one brand. Not sure that they are still made. The Internet does not turn up much useful. I think they were available down to 0.3 mm diameter.

 

I can post a question re. suppliers Down-Under on a watchmaking (tool) forum, where I am also a member.

[BANYAN]

Thanks Eberhard, appreciated.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Louie da fly]

I've been following this discussion with interest but been unable to contribute to it. I'm the most hamfisted solderer in existence and blissfully ignorant about drill bits, but I can appreciate the knowledge of others which leaves me rather awestruck.

 

Steven

[liteflight]

Hi, Pat

 

Don't want to be a nuisance on your thread, nor was I suggesting that you make a fluteless drill by forging and quenching in the blood of a red-headed virgin (the best type)

Its probable/possible that you already have the necessary tools!

Alternatives are:

• High-speed (preferably Carbide) burrs (liberate from your friendly dentist, if necessary)
• Diamond Burrs
• Needle files
• or a home-made spear drill - see sketch attached 

I hand-drill small holes using an Archimedean drill as a holder - generally centre-pop them with extremely sharp point (think compass point ground from a masonry nail or dead small drill shank) then turn over and needle file the back to remove the pip.  This often leaves a pinhole to be enlarged

Then any of the listed gadgets (and rotary broaches) will enlarge the hole to your desired diameter without applying much torque

 

Note 1 - the spear drill is an excellent reamer of holes in sizes up to 5 or 6 mm (I use a dead drill shank rather than Piano wire as cutting piano wire in these sizes is very little fun)

Note 2 - grinding a spear drill in 0.5mm (20 thou) diameter needs to be done slowly and with copious cooling as you grind to avoid overheating the high carbon wire.  Have a deep mug or water and keep cooling the wire before it needs it. 

Note 3  - If you get the whole end red hot  - heat it white hot with a blowlamp and quench in the water !  Viola!  Glass hard again!

Note 4 - You COULD grind both sides to a chisel point, then grind it elliptical like a glass drill but IMHO life is too short and I, for one would not presume to measure the diameter or cylindricity of your holes (which will no doubt house a shackle pin, or similar)

 

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by liteflight
replaced pdf with jpg for readability

[KeithAug]

13 hours ago, liteflight said:

• or a home-made spear drill - see sketch attached 

 

That is an interesting concept. How do you prevent the drill wandering off due to the uneven loading on the drill. Do you need to centre spot a hole with a larger cone than the diameter of the drill?

[the learner]

On 6/4/2021 at 12:33 PM, Kevin said:

with work like that its got to be worth making a bell rope

Bellrope tutorial (frayedknotarts.com)

Interesting tutorial! Which reminds me that when in USN i was assigned Tug Boat duty. The boat captain for the boat I was on did not like tire fenders with rope knotted on and draping down so he had us making road fenders in a similar manner as the bell rope with out the taper and fancy knots.  Thank you for this post, old memories abound!

[BANYAN]

Hi Andrew, thanks again for your contributions and suggestions.  I like the idea of the spear drill but had the same thought as Keith raises, and I have one other BIG problem.  No matter how careful I am etc, I just seem not to have the necessary skills to make small tool accessories successfully.  Believe me I have tried, but maintaining symmetry and controlling size are my biggest issues down at these sizes.  I therefore prefer to buy the appropriate bits etc.  I have some piano wire (from a previous failed attempt) and will have another go at your suggestion 3. 

 

I do appreciate the suggestions I have received re tool bits etc but we are wandering away from my key issue, controlling the heat in the spiderband type I have made.  Please do not think I am ignoring the suggestions or that I am disinterested, etc, they are all interesting and useful, but for this job I need to rethink how I am going about it.  The issue I believe (based on the various contributions) is that the geometry of the item under manufacture makes it difficult to hold securely and in a position that allows me to use a controlled drilling action (mill/drill).  

 

For the amount of times I drill brass (at this scale) I think I will stay with purchased bits (if I can find them) but need to adapt my process for holding the workpiece.  I can place the item at 90 degrees to the bit by putting it into a rotating/indexing chuck, but supporting the ears adequately is another story.  Therefore, if I can control the heat using one of the suggested bits (whether bought or hand made) I should be OK.  However, while I ponder the problem I think, that at this scale and item size, I will drill the band itself and silver-soldering a twisted shank eyebolt into it, then filing/reaming the underside of the band will work.  I have successfully done this for two small spiderbands now (each with an ID of sub 2mm).  They look pretty good in-situ (photo will follow once the other parts are made and the whole spar painted) and the eyes seem to hold OK.  This is similar in concept to Andrews 3rd  option in his first post (818) of cheating royally .

 

Thanks again everybody, much appreciated.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[liteflight]

Hi, Pat

 

Noted!

AND

Following Welfalck's excellent suggestion of watchmaker's Pivot Drills 

https://www.esslinger.com/drill-press-drills-and-more/

https://watchmaking.weebly.com/drill-bits.html

 

and, as it happens they are precise spade drills, available in sets or singles (see first reference)

 

Googling the Bergeon (No. 1713) reference will extend your horological linguistic skills not a little

And yes, the homemade piano wire reamers/drills make a wire-size reamed hole which is not necessarily on the centreline of the gadget that turns them  but for thin brass they follow the centre-pop!

 

andrew

 

[mtaylor]

Pat, I don't recall if you'be tried it yet, but there is a paste/putty for heat sinking bits that need soldering.  I've used some in the past and it worked very well though what I was soldering was larger.  Sorry but I don't recall the name of the product or where I bought it or even if they still make something like that.

[Roger Pellett]

Pat,

If drilling is causing the joint to fail, and the joint does not get hot enough to burn you when you touch it, then I would investigating  the joint design.  Soldering a flat plate to a cylinder might not provide enough surface area for a strong joint, as the cylinder curves away from the square edge of the plate.  While it is counterintuitive a thinner plate might allow the solder to flow more freely into the crevice to provide a stronger joint.  

 

I use Bakers Fluid as a flux.  It is a clear non-viscous fluid.  Applied to the joint with a fine tipped brush it wicks into the joint and seems to help the solder flow better. 

 

It would also also help if you can introduce a mechanical key into the joint.  Maybe a tiny peg that fits into a hole in the tube?

 

Roger

[BANYAN]

Hi again Andrew, Mark and Roger; again I very much value the input and suggestions.

• Thanks for the link Andrew; I think I will have to invest in some of these - appreciated.
• Mark, the product I have seen (in various guises) is called 'Blue Stuff'  - I am about to order some to experiment with (if I can get t in a suitable size); it comes as a gel, paste or putty (I think).
• Hi Roger, thanks for the thought - I think you may be right.  I have also considered cutting a slot for the flat pieces to fit into which is fine if four plates are needed, but I am yet to work out how to do 3 in such a small diameter tube (without destroying the band).  The joint seems reasonable until it is heated through drilling, but that is where your thoughts on surface area of the joint probably are the root cause.  I am not sure I can find suitably stiff flat bar stock to use as the lugs.  the stock I am using at the moment are only 0.4mm; any thinner and I don't think they will be stiff enough for shaping and drilling etc.

Cheers

 

Pat

 

[Roger Pellett]

Another couple of thoughts:

 

If drilling is overheating the joint try packing the ID of the tube with wet tissue. This should greatly increase heat transfer from the joint as you are taking advantage of the latent heat of the water.

 

The brass and bronze alloys “work harden.”  In other words they harden when distorted while cold.  If your drill bit is not immediately taking a bite from the surface being drilled, it is hardening the tiny spot that you are trying to drill.  If the bit doesn’t immediately bite it is not sharp enough.

 

Roger

[BANYAN]

thanks Roger; both great thoughts worth consideration.  I can attest my drill were not sharp enough, so that was my first concern.  

 

cheers

 

Pat

[KeithAug]

Pat

 

Pat, -  The best plan would be to post a dimensioned sketch of the part you are trying to make. Then you can challenge us all to have a go at making it, with a prize for the winner. Given the interest you have generated  I bet you would get a flood of submissions. What do you think 😃!

[BANYAN]

Good idea Keith, but creating even more work for myself I think as, as you hint, I think I may get flooded.  Based on the generous interest and suggestions, I think I have settled on two methods depending on size.  For the smaller ones (OD of band less than 2mm) I will use the eyebolt method described earlier.  For hose bigger than 2mm, I will use the jig I developed (post 818), but use a better drill/bit.  Based on one of your ideas I think I have a jig that will allow me to mount them in the mill and use my sensitive drilling attachment, along with my indexing head, to drill holes as required.  The real trick here I think will be using a better bit and some cooling compound.  I like the idea of those 'pivot' drills and currently searching for some locally.   I'll post some photos once I get the jig and drilling setup sorted.

 

Appreciate all the feedback folks, this has been a very useful  and fruitful discussion for me.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[wefalck]

Pat, I posted an enquiry a week ago or so on a watchmaking forum about sources for spade-drill 'down-under', but unfortunaly no useful replies came forward. Sorry. Probably, that forum has mainly members from the USA and Europe.