HMCSS Victoria 1855 by Banyan - 1:72

[BANYAN]

Thanks Mark, appreciate the suggestions.  I may have been a little unclear above, but the iron water tank is framed/cradled by the gallows timbers and a couple of rails, and the belfry would sit centrally on the top of the fore crosspiece/end board.  I am more inclined towards thinking it may be timber based on the non-conforming shape (to the bell) BUT, that said, if the majority feedback is more aligned with a metal frame I will certainly give that some serious consideration (and it would be easier to make )

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited May 31, 2021 by BANYAN

[rwiederrich]

14 minutes ago, BANYAN said:

Thanks Mark, appreciate the suggestions.  I may have been a little unclear above, but the iron water tank is framed/cradled by the gallows timbers and a couple of rails, and the belfry would sit centrally on the top of the fore crosspiece/end board.  I am more inclined towards thinking it may be timber based on the non-conforming shape (to the bell) BUT, that said, if the majority feedback is more aligned with a metal frame I will certainly give that some serious consideration (and it would be easier to make )

 

cheers

 

Pat

I’ll toss the coin.   Looking over your vessel,  I’d gather metal more suited.

[BANYAN]

Oh great   Just as I was resiled to the timber .  Thanks for looking in and your suggestion Rob, much appreciated.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited June 1, 2021 by BANYAN

[Jim Lad]

i think I agree with the 'toss of a coin' theory, Pat, but leaning more towards timber.  The period would certainly suggest an iron or bronze belfry, but if the artist has proved accurate with other details, then I think I'd go for timber.

 

John

[wefalck]

When looking at the little cropped image, I would toss the coin onto the metal side. To me it looks like a piece of cast iron, to spidery for wood, as it has to carry the presumably pretty heavy bell.

[Louie da fly]

Hi Pat. It does look a bit coin-toss. Against the steel version is the fact that it follows the form of the bell so closely, which is not seen on the lithograph.

 

The wood version would be harder to make (especially as you have all those amazing metal-working equipment and skills!), but it could be done. First question - why do you have three layers at all? Is it to follow standard belfry construction? Certainly you can't see them in the lithograph.

 

However, if you do, there are two ways to go. The first is to carve your three layers from separate pieces of fine-grained timber (box for preference) and glue them together. That would take a fair bit of care to get everything to fit accurately, but it could be done. Rather in the manner of post #1404 at https://modelshipworld.com/topic/10344-10th-11th-century-byzantine-dromon-by-louie-da-fly-150-finished/page/47/ - (only more complicated)

 

 

Alternatively, treat the horizontal projections as a separate structure - you'll never get a change of direction that tight by bending. Glue the three layers of the arch together and while the glue is still wet put them in a two-piece press of the correct diameter (you'd have to make that, I suppose) to get the curve. The layers will slide over each other longitudinally, so make them a little too long and trim to length once the glue is dry. Make the projections separately and glue them in place. This is a very fiddly method, and has many opportunities to go wrong - I'd be going for carved pieces, myself.

 

If all else fails, send me the dimensions and I'll be quite happy to carve the arch. (I have to say I'm rather tempted by the idea of having a little bit of my stuff on this beautiful model).

 

On 5/31/2021 at 11:51 AM, BANYAN said:

the front timbers go down to/through the deck and will fasten to the deck beams in similar fashion to the bitts.  I know the lithograph shows them more slanted, but the artist's perspective used had the ship on a slight bow on aspect, which may have influenced/skewed his depiction (well that is my current story

 

Nup, the bow-on aspect would still show vertical legs as vertical, or at the very least as parallel. If this is an accurate rendition, then the legs would be splayed, even in timber. It could be an advantage in structural strength to do it that way, actually. Though I think you're right in spotting a "step" in the legs toward the bottom (before the gunwale obscures them).

 

Steven

[BANYAN]

Thanks for looking in and the various great comments and suggestions, John, Eberhard and Steven - makes the decision even more perplexing though as each offers very convincing arguments for and against.   

 

I went back and edited the post t include a larger enhanced version of the small crop of the lithograph to see if that would help but --- Nope  

 

I think I will put this decision off for a little while longer as it can be added much later whether made from metal or timber as it fits to the top of the fore gallows crosspiece/end board and I will still have access to that area even if the standing rigging is in place.   In the meantime though I might have a go at metal.

 

Eberhard:  I was thinking the same but all of the metal versions I have seen to date do not have those upper projections/stubs, but rather conform to the shape of the bell - which continues to make me shy away from a metal frame.  I do agree though, the frame appears too lightweight to be timber - hence my quandary.

 

This will give me time to get back into the Public Records Office Victoria (PROV) and see if there is anything in the remaining correspondence from the vessel's build Superintendent (Commander Lockyer RN).  I had plans of doing that very soon but, as most will be aware Victoria has gone into yet another Covid Lockdown (so it will be a while yet).  Hopefully Lockyer will have made a comment in one of his numerous reports that I have not yet seen/transcribed.

 

Steven:  Your proposed techniques are exactly what I had in mind, thanks for that.  I have had a go with using the laminated technique but as you identify, the bends are just not achievable (at the projections).  I went with 3 layers simply copying the traditional way (as you also correctly surmised).  One technique I may yet fall back on is to 3D print the part - paint it either mahogany (as with the ship's wheel) or brass if metal.  Cheating I know!   but hey.....

 

cheers, and thanks once again to all

 

Pat

[BANYAN]

OK folks, a little more digging around has found something that may work and sort of conforms (roughly) with the lithograph detail.  The NMM Collections holds a belfry and bell (items EQA0462_1 and EQA0462 respectively) that was fitted in the Yacht Fox (also built 1855) that is metal, and has projections - just a little different to the profiler in its upper parts.  Close enough for it to work though I think?

 

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by BANYAN

[Tony Hunt]

That looks pretty close, doesn't it? Good sleuthing!

[mtaylor]

Excellent research and result, Pat.  Looking at the model at it's current state, I think it'll fit right in to the flavor of the ship.  

[BANYAN]

Thanks Tony and Mark, and for all the likes.  I appreciate you all looking in.  It's always a surprise to me that when researching, for days you just cannot find the info you really need, then all of a sudden ....

 

cheers

 

Pat

[mtaylor]

2 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Thanks Tony and Mark, and for all the likes.  I appreciate you all looking in.  It's always a surprise to me that when researching, for days you just cannot find the info you really need, then all of a sudden ....

 

cheers

 

Pat

What fun would it be if there were no "aha!!!" moments?

[BANYAN]

Too true Mark

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Keith Black]

Pat, I'm glad your research paid off! The frustration of low yield results just lets the air out of one's build efforts. 

[BANYAN]

Thanks Keith.  Now that the decision is made to go with a metal frame, I have made a start.  The belfry is almost done, and a good start made on the gallows.  There is still some metal polishing to be done to remove the final scratches (noting this is a super closeup shot).  The frame is one piece brass bar 1.5 mm x 0.8 mm shaped to the profile.  I drilled the sides after it was shaped to accept 0.5 mm brass rod on which the bell is free mounted (can swing.  The bell is aftermarket.  I then soldered the end caps on (small brass tube) and silver soldered the base plate.  Have yet to decide whether to leave it like this or cut away the central bit.  Leaving it intact will allow a better gluing surface and some additional strength.  I am also still deciding whether to drill the 'clapper' and add a small rope.

 

I have made the bitts, end boards and rails for the gallows; the side rails (to hold the FW tank) are in but need some final sanding.  I have just painted the FW tank but no photo as it is still drying.  I have painted the tank a metallic iron colour; I had considered white, but simply to allow the detail to show I have used the iron colour.

 

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Louie da fly]

Brilliant work, Pat. That's just beautiful!

 

Steven

[wefalck]

Yep, well done. This is how I perceived it from the image. Will you add also the cord (not sure about the exact term in the context of bells ...) ?

[bruce d]

Very nice Pat.

[Chuck]

Pat that looks fantastic.  Well done with the bell.   Metalwork like that is difficult for me and watching you put all the metal bits together on your model so well is inspiring me to give it a try at some point.   Its a whole different animal for me but you make it look so easy.

 

Chuck

[mtaylor]

Beautiful work, Pat.   Well done.  It might be easier to just "fake it" on the clapper rope.   Remove the clapper completely and just hang a stiffened rope down.

[Kevin]

with work like that its got to be worth making a bell rope

Bellrope tutorial (frayedknotarts.com)

[Jim Lad]

Definitely need a bell rope, Pat! 

 

John

[EdT]

Bravo, Pat.  Right up to your usual standards of research and execution. Nicely done.

 

Ed

[BANYAN]

Thanks for all the likes, and the kind comments and suggestions Steven, Eberhard, Bruce, Chuck, Mark, Kevin, John and Ed.

 

Chuck:  The trick I have found (at this scale) is resistance soldering.  I find it much easier to control the heat and using different heat activated solders can usually get the smaller details in place without disturbing the rest.  Now, if I can get my woodwork up to the same standard as yours I would be real happy.

 

Bruce and Ed, always appreciate you looking in and you much appreciated comments.

 

Eberhard, Kevin, John: My intention is to try and add a bell rope BUT at this scale it would only be 0.2mm diameter so definitely no plaiting/weaving or fancy knot work.  IF I can drill a small hole in the clapper, I will simply add a small length of very fine scale rope with a knot in the end.  Thanks for setting the challenge (I think 🤯)

 

cheers

 

Pat

[BANYAN]

A little more progress folks; some dusting, removal of glue (when properly dry) etc still to do but here is the result for the Gallows and Belfry.  In hindsight, I wish I had not secured the Elliott riding bitts in place as they need to be a little more forward, but in reality there is still room to work the cable around them if needed.  I couldn't move the gallows further aft as I have to preserve room/space for the capstan bars when fitted.  I still have to add the simulated bolt heads on the legs of the belfry.  

 

The bit of brass at the top is a breather pipe.  The tank is 3D printed resin airbrushed with Mr. Metal 'iron'; although not clear, the bit bottom central is a cock for drawing fresh water which I think should no be at the back - too late now though.

 

Sorry the challenge was not taken up re fitting a bell rope - the thing was just to small.  I could not drill a small enough hole in the clapper's end without the drill bit wandering around (only 0.3mm  end below the round part).  I may end up just gluing a bit of twisted cotton (3 colours)  on there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

cheers

 

Pat

[mtaylor]

This is impressive, Pat.   Gluing a bit of rope for the clapper seems like great touch.

[Keith Black]

Pat, another lovely bit added to the mix. You'll have to treat us to a full deck photo as it's been awhile since the whole was shown in one go. 

[druxey]

Very, very impressive, Pat!

[BANYAN]

Thanks for looking in and kind comments Mark, Keith and Druxey; much appreciated.  I am about to tackle the flag locker and a few remaining very minor fittings (Lead's man stanchions and belt, Fish davit etc.); I will then do a photo stack image of the full upperdeck to ensure all is in focus.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[EdT]

Looks great seeing it all assembled Pat.  Again, bravo on a fantastic job.

 

Ed