Lady Nelson by vossiewulf - Amati/Victory Models - 1:64

[gjdale]

Just found your build log Jay, and have enjoyed getting caught up with your progress - nice work! I'll pull up a chair and follow along from here.

[vossiewulf]

Welcome Grant, chips and salsa are on the table over there.

[Rick01]

Looking good Vossie - I knocked the bulkhead extensions off at this stage then planked the inner side of the gunwales which smoothed out some minor ripples at the forward gun ports. Obviously all the planking was curved to shape first and gun ports were planked over then re-opened once planking was dry.

 

Rick

[vossiewulf]

Looking good Vossie - I knocked the bulkhead extensions off at this stage then planked the inner side of the gunwales which smoothed out some minor ripples at the forward gun ports. Obviously all the planking was curved to shape first and gun ports were planked over then re-opened once planking was dry.

 

Rick

 

Thanks Rick, you're now anticipating my questions so I don't have to ask them I was thinking about that option too. that may very well be what I do this evening.

[Rick01]

I was actually in two minds about posting as I know you like to work these things out yourself. However you had already mentioned ironing out ripples so I went ahead with my own experience in this area.

 

Rick

[vossiewulf]

I was actually in two minds about posting as I know you like to work these things out yourself. However you had already mentioned ironing out ripples so I went ahead with my own experience in this area.

 

Rick

Nah, I've already acknowledged that this is something I shouldn't do that with, a zillion hidden dangers that even an experienced person can easily miss.

 

And in any case, I'll never react negatively to anyone who is trying to help.

 

And I have a question I thought the fascia would be flat, but the angle of the outer fashion pieces seems to require a curve and I'm wishing now I totally prepared this joint before now, I didn't because I thought it would be better to wait until it was stabilized by attaching the outer bulkhead strips. Poor decision.

[Rick01]

I finished the prep work after fixing the  bulwarks because of the stability problem myself, even then I broke one of the inner elbows off the deck once. The fascia should be flat in the vertical plane with a reasonable curve horizontally. I do recall that it took a bit of time/work shaping the elbows to get a proper fit - I also made three ( I think) fascias before I got the fit right. These niggles are sent to try us!

 

Rick

Edited February 3, 2017 by Rick01

[vossiewulf]

I finished the prep work after fixing the  bulwarks because of the stability problem myself, even then I broke one of the inner elbows off the deck once. The fascia should be flat in the vertical plane with a reasonable curve horizontally. I do recall that it took a bit of time/work shaping the elbows to get a proper fit - I also made three ( I think) fascias before I got the fit right. These niggles are sent to try us!

 

Rick

 

I need to make a "thanks Rick" macro ;-) That's basically what I was seeing. And although it would have been a little tricky because of them resonating, I think I could have at least reasonably prepared the joint ahead of time as mine were pinned to the deck.

 

I got the other bulwark strip on and finished painting the fascia, then spent some time making an Advanced Rope-Powered Keelalator that is a basically a U-shaped construction, the arms of which reach down into the midships grate openings to grip the keel plate that will be locked down by a looping line running through four holes in the keel plate and over stanchions on the Keelalator. 

 

The reason is so I can flip the ship upside down and have it be held firmly in my engraver's block.for planking, and the line is because I of course can't glue or screw it as the planking will make that attachment inaccessible. So the line will function to hold it firmly and when done I can cut it and remove the ARPK.

 

I'll show the pics after tomorrow's session.

Edited February 3, 2017 by vossiewulf

[Rick01]

So you're about to start on what I find as the scary, boring, frustrating bit of ship building. Only one bit of advice here, if you haven't already, then you should read some of the articles here http://modelshipworldforum.com/ship-model-framing-and-planking-articles.phpand consider using a PVA glue - i found it much easier to remove bits that don't work properly (like half a side of second planking that I hated) than with CA. 

 

Rick :-)

[vossiewulf]

Yes, I am. Unfortunately I have not gotten started though because I decided I couldn't accept the Admiralty color on the stern, even the bright red was actually orange. So I stripped it off, which itself took a while and was very messy, and then got on one of the runs where nothing works and hours were spent just getting back to square zero. Well not quite, I did finally get the new color on the pieces, I'm using straight up Tamiya red about same value and saturation as the Admiralty color but several notches toward red.

 

Too annoyed to post pics now but I did take them, will post them tomorrow so everyone can follow along while I repeatedly punch myself in the face.

 

It's basically example # 18 quintillion or something to know exactly WTF you are doing before you do it. I went ahead not being 100% sure of a color, and as a direct result found myself in a position with paint on and pieces less accessible than they were and needing to remove that color and paint over. Which itself went badly requiring two tries. Gigantic time sink. If you're wondering, having to strip the first was one because Tamiya and Admiralty acrylics don't like each other. And that should have been a giant waving flag that I was descending into the valley of modeling madness.

 

BTW, only issue with the Admiralty paints was the color, otherwise they're excellent paints for ships and brush paint extremely well properly thinned. They come extremely thick, almost like a concentrate so the small bottle is going to cover a quite large area.

 

[Tigersteve]

Hi- very nice build so far. I've been following along. I've been using Tamiya red for my build and it's been working out for me. It is very thin right out of the jar so I do not even thin it before using. I use several coats and sand before the final coats. I'm also a big fan of elmers wood glue. It's easy to clean up and rip off pieces when needed, which is often for me!

Steve

[usedtosail]

Hi Jay. I am glad I found your build log and now have a real name to call you. You are doing a great job, even with the redos. You should put a link to this log in your signature, so others can find it too. I love those riffler files you use. I have seen other builders use similar ones too, so they are on my list of tools to get.

[vossiewulf]

Hi- very nice build so far. I've been following along. I've been using Tamiya red for my build and it's been working out for me. It is very thin right out of the jar so I do not even thin it before using. I use several coats and sand before the final coats. I'm also a big fan of elmers wood glue. It's easy to clean up and rip off pieces when needed, which is often for me!

Steve

 

Thanks, good to know someone else likes that color. I still thin it a bit but I agree it's pretty close to brush consistency out of the bottle. I try for zero brush marks, I find going a tad thinner than that, making them glaze coats, gets me the flattest surface. Downside is 5-10 coats instead of two, but they also dry extremely quickly.

 

 

Hi Jay. I am glad I found your build log and now have a real name to call you. You are doing a great job, even with the redos. You should put a link to this log in your signature, so others can find it too. I love those riffler files you use. I have seen other builders use similar ones too, so they are on my list of tools to get.

 

Hey Tom, thanks for the kind words. I keep forgetting the sig thing I'll see if I can add it when I post the latest pics.

 

WRT files, I remember thinking I was being really excessive buying a set that expensive, and then 30 minutes into first use it became "I'm a complete jerk for not buying these sooner". The quality difference is at its greatest on metal, these are just wonderful for shaping brass.

 

Do not forget that GV has a complete line of files, all of which are better than you get at the hardware store, and their second-quality files are pretty reasonable and will still make you very happy.

 

Check out needle file sets here. You want cut 2 to start with, it's a good general purpose cut. You can get a set of 6 of their best-quality needle files in cut 2 for $42. Down at the bottom they have sets of 12 second-quality files in two sizes for $80 and $60 respectively. And even their economy set of 6 at $19 is better than what the hobby stores sell, there really is no reason NOT to buy a set of those, you use them for nastier work and save your nice files for precision work.

 

Also look at the larger riffler file size, the Habilis files, and the machinist's files, all have tools extremely applicable to this hobby and are not too expensive.

[vossiewulf]

Another good option is Grobet, they're an American company with files of very nearly the quality of GV. I own and use lots of Grobet files too.

 

Search for riffler files or file sets in their storefront on Amazon.

[Rick01]

Hey Vossie at least you didn't have your decking laid before you had the "do over" - it's sheer hell when you have a nice clean deck with a spot of paint on it (speaking from experience). 

 

Rick

[Landlocked123]

Hi Jay,

 

I've just read your build from the beginning and want to congratulate you on what you've achieved thus far. At this pace and level of quality work, your really going to end up with a beautiful ship.

 

You've made a couple of references to Chuck's Cheerful. On page 45-46 (or so) of the build he shows how to make thimbles, which you mentioned was of interest. It took me a bit of practice but I'm now able to make them in virtually any size. Also, early on you mentioned shooting boards and plank benders. Chuck has a video of a planking technique which obviates the need for either of those. Here's the links:

 

Video 1 - http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/8131-hm-cutter-cheerful-1806-148-scale-by-chuck/page-16

 

Video 2 - http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/8131-hm-cutter-cheerful-1806-148-scale-by-chuck/page-17

 

I will be following along to watch the remainder of the build and am really looking forward to it.

 

Best,

John

Edited February 5, 2017 by Landlocked123

[vossiewulf]

Hey Vossie at least you didn't have your decking laid before you had the "do over" - it's sheer hell when you have a nice clean deck with a spot of paint on it (speaking from experience). 

 

Rick

 

Ok I'm trying not to think about how much fun that must have been.

 

 

Hi Jay,

 

I've just read your build from the beginning and want to congratulate you on what you've achieved thus far. At this pace and level of quality work, your really going to end up with a beautiful ship.

 

You've made a couple of references to Chuck's Cheerful. On page 45-46 (or so) of the build he shows how to make thimbles, which you mentioned was of interest. It took me a bit of practice but I'm now able to make them in virtually any size. Also, early on you mentioned shooting boards and plank benders. Chuck has a video of a planking technique which obviates the need for either of those. Here's the links:

 

Video 1 - http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/8131-hm-cutter-cheerful-1806-148-scale-by-chuck/page-16

 

Video 2 - http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/8131-hm-cutter-cheerful-1806-148-scale-by-chuck/page-17

 

I will be following along to watch the remainder of the build and am really looking forward to it.

 

Best,

John

 

Thanks John! I'll watch those before starting the planking.

 

I did buy some brass thimbles at Modeling Timbers, but I'd prefer to make them long run.

[vossiewulf]

Stopping for the moment to catch up with where I am and show the Nightmare on Fashion Piece Street. 

 

So anyway, back a couple days ago we had left the starboard bulkhead strip to dry in situ prior to gluing to the ship, here he is ready to be glued on. Not showing that process as it was the same as the other side.

 

 

Here checking symmetry, looks reasonable and the overhang at the stern was different on the two strips by only about 1/64" which means the two sides are pretty close to identical.

 

 

And I did do better this time on ripples, basically none worth mentioning. The one hard turn as we go to the stern should disappear on its own when I remove the stanchion thing.

 

 

BTW Rick what is up with these uneven and different on each side curves on the tops of the bulkhead strips?

 

 

So here is where I made the fateful decision that the perfectly-painted fashion pieces were unacceptable for being too orange. We don't see pics, but the first effort of course was just overpainting, both are acrylics right? Nope, Tamiya didn't react well at all over Admiralty and really the only choice was to strip them down.

 

Here we are blithely sliding down into the pits of modeling hell.

 

 

The fact that afterward the pieces looked exactly like compressed cat vomit should also have been some kind of indicator that we were traveling through the valley of model death.

 

 

And here they are ready to go. One way I try to make going backward less painful is improve it in the process. Even when I want to paint the first time the pieces felt too heavy to me, so I narrowed them all down until I was happy and then rounded them over. Considering their position leaving them with hard edges didn't make sense to me.

 

 

So now that everything is super ready to go we start painting and...

 

 

 

Holy crap how is that still happening with them sanded down like that??? I'm already removing this disaster.

 

 

This time around I removed the paint with an abrasive acrylic rod held in a collet thingy held in my rotary tool. This is a pretty rough grit so it went pretty quick and they can get down into corners.

 

 

This is after that operation.

 

 

I then removed the rest and cleaned thoroughly with rubbing alcohol to ensure nothing was left on the pieces. We don't have pics here because this is where total madness set it. I painted one stroke of the Tamiya red and waited, and watched it do the same exact thing as before.

 

First I had to walk away for a while because all I could thing about was ripping off the fashion pieces and making a very small bonfire with them in my driveway.

 

Once I got over that I came back, but I was totally in "ok I've had just about enough of this crap" zone, so to solve this once and for all I coated all of them in thin super glue. Once dried I had to resand all of them for like the 14th time. Eventually they were ready and when painted the Tamiya red worked fine and here we are.

 

Only difference between this and a previous similar pic is they're somewhat redder. Well that and many hours and steps and an urge to burn fashion pieces.

 

 

What is weirder about the fashion pieces was I'd first noticed the Admiraly-Tamiya problem on the stern fascia, and I had stripped that down and sanded it a bit and the Tamiya went over it no problem. I have no idea why the fashion pieces were still able to screw up the Tamiya paint until I sealed them in super glue prison.

 

Here it is with Tamiya color, it needs to dry overnight then it will get sanded lightly with 2000 grit and then a few more coats, surface still too uneven.

 

 

Next comes planking, but before I could do that I needed to finish my Mk.I Advanced Rope-Powered Keelalator, which I did.

 

 

If you can figure out how it works at this point you should be tested for wizardy.

 

 

I needed something very strong and dependable to grip the keel plate through the deck grate holes, but still be detachable later even though that area was going to become inaccessible after planking. This was the result, a U-shaped piece where each arm goes in a grate hole grabs each side of the hull plate firmly and the bottom of the U bottoms out on the deck, so we have a pretty good mechanical hold. We just need to make sure it stays there.

 

Here it is in place, I've just drilled the four holes it needs and beveled the edges with a countersink.

 

 

And this is what will hold it in place: black bowstring. The reason for using bowstring is that one strand is about strong enough to hang your car off of, it's very supple and flexible, and most importantly, it does.not.stretch. At all. Negative on that stretch attempt, Ghostrider.

 

 

That makes it very good for jig applications like this and is why I have four types of bowstring in my closet even though I don't own any bows.

 

Here is in in top view, and indeed parts of the boat itself will fail well before the Mk.I ARPK lets go.

 

 

And all of that was for this reason- so I could now flip it upside down and hold it correctly in my engraver's block.

 

 

And here is how it will be in planking, rotated toward me. Since the engraver's block's top half rotates when you allow it to, I can put on one plank on this side and then just spin it around and be in the same basic position for the other side. 

 

 

I now am going outside to sacrifice a goat to the Ship Modeling Gods and ask that planking go somewhat better than this last phase did. Um... hmm.... anyone have a goat handy?

Edited February 5, 2017 by vossiewulf

[Rick01]

"BTW Rick what is up with these uneven and different on each side curves on the tops of the bulkhead strips?"

You may want to buy a small herd of goats before you've finished. The upper edge of the gunwale should run parallel to the deck - so in this case there should be a smooth curve for the full length of it. Looks to me as if the laser cutter had some sort of hiccup or maybe just a bit of a wobble, the gun ports either side of the dip actually look distorted slightly as well. Shouldn't be as much of a problem as your redo of those elbows however, When it gets planked just ensure you get a nice line with the top plank ignoring the wobble, the capping rail will conceal the dip nicely.

Next time you start to get that feeling of burning one of the more recalcitrant bits go ahead, just remember to make a good copy first!! I've got half a ships worth of junked items where it was a better idea to junk it rather than continue the fight but I've always either got a good copy or been able to reconstruct the bit from the outline from the blank that it was lasered from.

You're going to have a brilliant model when finished , plus this build will be pretty well the definitive manual for beginners building "Lady Nelson".   

 

Rick

[gjdale]

Well done on the perseverance Jay! I saw a heard of very nervous looking goats go by just now.........

 

I hope the next phase goes a little more smoothly for  you.

[vossiewulf]

"BTW Rick what is up with these uneven and different on each side curves on the tops of the bulkhead strips?"

You may want to buy a small herd of goats before you've finished. The upper edge of the gunwale should run parallel to the deck - so in this case there should be a smooth curve for the full length of it. Looks to me as if the laser cutter had some sort of hiccup or maybe just a bit of a wobble, the gun ports either side of the dip actually look distorted slightly as well. Shouldn't be as much of a problem as your redo of those elbows however, When it gets planked just ensure you get a nice line with the top plank ignoring the wobble, the capping rail will conceal the dip nicely.

Next time you start to get that feeling of burning one of the more recalcitrant bits go ahead, just remember to make a good copy first!! I've got half a ships worth of junked items where it was a better idea to junk it rather than continue the fight but I've always either got a good copy or been able to reconstruct the bit from the outline from the blank that it was lasered from.

You're going to have a brilliant model when finished , plus this build will be pretty well the definitive manual for beginners building "Lady Nelson".   

 

Rick

 

On the bulkhead strips, sigh, more things to fix, What confused me and kept me from doing something sooner is that if you look, you'll see that despite the unevenness that the bulkhead stanchions all have almost identical overhang on the strip so it looked purposeful. This material is thick enough to add pieces on top if needed, I can even reinforce with CF pins if necessary, so one way or another we can fix them.

 

So next step is laying out planking and first, John/Landlocked thanks for the links to Chuck's videos, that is indeed a pretty simple method. I think I'm still going to use one or more planes to at least do the tapering step he does with his xacto knife, I think I can do that faster and more accurately with a plane. I'm guessing Chuck started with building ships and hasn't done much furniture work and just isn't that experienced with planes so he defaults to a perfectly workable and familiar to him method that isn't much slower. And if I find I have squirrely stock with unpredictable grain I'll put down the planes and pick up the knife for that step too.

 

I'm surprised he doesn't bother with soaking at all, and I'm wondering how he handles bends more severe than what he needs to do here, since anything more than what he did and that stock is breaking. Since he seems against soaking I have to assume he does it in more than one step, progressively increasing the bend.

 

Since I don't have more severe bends I'll give that a try, but I may soak also - there is no time wasted in putting stock into water a couple hours ahead of time and if anything raising the grain, at least on the final planking, is a benefit for sanding to a final surface. Long time ago I used to make very expensive corporate conference tables and one of the steps of preparing the tops was wetting down the surface to raise the grain before final sanding.

 

But as noted I'll try it without soaking and if it's really not needed, it's not needed.

 

Other difference is for the sake of peace and quiet I'm going to forego the screaming hair dryer in favor of my plank bender, at least if that works. The key point there is to raise the piece to bending temp and then let it cool again, doesn't matter how you heat it.

 

The taper and bevel technique is pretty much what I was intending to do. With the bevel I actually don't think he explained it well, he only explains the convex curve where the inside of the plank needs to be smaller than the face - he left out concave (or maybe I couldn't hear it) where the converse is true and the plank face will need to be smaller. I think of planks this way from the front view, with the divisions between planks being radii of curves extending from the curve's centerpoint, which is what they need to be if they're going to fit side by side correctly, and that means wherever planking is covering a curved surface the plank edges need to be beveled.

 

Those videos don't show how he decided how much the planks have to taper, so I went ahead with how I intended to do it, and need some feedback as to whether this looks correct. Since this hull is very simple until we get to the stern, on the bow I decided to just let the planks terminate naturally into the stem and keep tapering the rest.

 

I started with figuring out how many are needed at midships by making a piece of paper the correct length, and then dividing it by the 3/16" width of the planking, turned out to be exactly 14. 

 

 

So then I made a set of parallel lines on paper into 14 divisions at 3/32" (less than the smallest anticipated taper) to use to draw the divisions on the following paper strips. Here is the first strip being marked. 

 

 

And then transferring to builkheads.

 

 

 

Long term this is overkill, but I'm also sketching in the lines as I go as it's a totally unambiguous reality check as to whether my cunning plan is working out or not.

 

Here we're at the forward bulkhead where planks start terminating into the stem. Note that if you're going to do ad-hoc divisions like I am that they need to be straight and perfectly parallel to the bulkheads from the side view like we see here. The first vertical line is the point at which the first plank ends. The second is after two more end and I'm just tapering 11 from there. 

 

 

Marking the paper strip for the second line, with just 11 divisions.

 

 

And transferred marks to hull.

 

 

From there I used Mk.I Eyeball to draw them the rest of the way. It's logical and simple, but it looks kind of straight from the side view, not exactly the most graceful lines. However, anything I do to make the lines more graceful is going to also be more complicated with drop planks in the middle required.

 

Please let me know what you folks think, if I need to do it differently we'll erase all this and start over.

 

 

 

 

Yes I know this detail isn't necessarily required for inner planking, but it's also an exact dry run of what I will need to do for the final planking where high quality is required, so I can't think of cases where I won't do it this way and work out everything I need to know for the final planking at this point.

[BANYAN]

Hi,  just a small consideration to ponder Vossie.  The preciseness of your first planking might also be the cause of some issues down line.  If you plank exactly the same for first and second layers, the seams/plank joints will all be coincident. By not having them coincident (having overlapping of planks between layers), you can reduce the chance of seams opening  if there is any movement in the wood from humidity/heat etc; whereas, if coincident they may open up.  That said, the argument can be made that a single layer of planking would have the same issues and that doing this is virtually the same as having a single layer of planking.  However, with two layers, especially the uneven thicknesses, will make one layer might expand more than the other?

 

Just raised as something to consider.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited February 5, 2017 by BANYAN

[vossiewulf]

Hi,  just a small consideration to ponder Vossie.  The preciseness of your first planking might also be the cause of some issues down line.  If you plank exactly the same for first and second layers, the seams/plank joints will all be coincident. By not having them coincident (having overlapping of planks between layers), you can reduce the chance of seams opening  if there is any movement in the wood from humidity/heat etc; whereas, if coincident they may open up.  That said, the argument can be made that a single layer of planking would have the same issues and that doing this is virtually the same as having a single layer of planking.  However, with two layers, especially the uneven thicknesses, will make one layer might expand more than the other?

 

Just raised as something to consider.

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

Well that rains on the parade,

 

You're correct. I won't do that in the future, but for this the advantages of the dry run outweigh the risks of popping. Particularly as I intend to do treenails on the planking since this will be unpainted, and that will help. 

 

Does the pattern look ok? That's what I'm concerned about now. If that looks ok, I'll go start work on it.

[Rick01]

Only one variation that I'd make. I'd make the first couple of planks under the gunwales full (non-tapered) planks visually you then seem to loose the appearance of an up-swept planking line especially if you then taper the rest only slightly rather than have a few with slightly greater tapers. Hope that makes sense!

Being the first layer it does give you room to experiment.

 

Rick

[vossiewulf]

Only one variation that I'd make. I'd make the first couple of planks under the gunwales full (non-tapered) planks visually you then seem to loose the appearance of an up-swept planking line especially if you then taper the rest only slightly rather than have a few with slightly greater tapers. Hope that makes sense!

Being the first layer it does give you room to experiment.

 

Rick

 

Ah there we go, that saves the day. I'll go ahead with the pattern as I have it now and then make that change for the second planking. That way I don't have to redo what I have now but I'll also shift the joints slightly so they don't coincide as Pat suggests. And that's a small enough change that this still works as a dry run of the final.

 

Thanks Pat and Rick!

[Rick01]

Sounds good to me - I found the direction change at the stern less of a problem with properly soaked timber than ensuring I got a smooth line of planking at the prow. At this stage I also slowed down in build speed - two or three planks a side daily with deck furnishings being built between times to relieve the boredom.

 

Rick 

[BANYAN]

Ditto Rick's recommendation - should look good!

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Rick01]

Just had a horrible thought - did you increase the height of the prow when you drilled it for the extra couple of holes? If not then another goat will be needed as the bowsprit sits fairly high along side it. If you didn't then you may want to drop the bowsprit and its supporting timbers a couple of mm. when you get that far.

 

 

Rick

[vossiewulf]

(Fingers in ears) LALALALALALALA

[vossiewulf]

BTW finished the layout of the stern planking... I think. And spent time fitting the stern fascia piece so it's ready to glue on. So tomorrow there is nothing else to do but start fitting planks. Rick I'm going to pull the deck stanchions but only after putting on the first plank, the bulkhead strips cover just the false deck, no lower, so they only have about a 1/32" glue contact area right now. Glued to the plank below they will be much sturdier when I go pulling on them removing the stanchions.

 

Also the fascia will get glued and then I have a voodoo priest coming in to cleanse the stern of bad modeling spirits. Note: need more goats.