Canister, chain and bar shot storage?

[BobCardone]

Hi all,

I'm currently building the 1:24 Model Shipways Philadelphia, and have some questions on the way that "odd" shot was commonly stored. Were they in crates, did they have dedicated racks or some other method?

I've made up some chain, canister and bar shot and would like to have them visible and not in crates.

Any ideas or suggestions?

[barkeater]

Nice looking shot. As far as I know these odd shot types were stored below decks in the shot locker. They would have been used by larger vessels at least frigate size and brought up on deck when needed.  I hate to bring it up but I seriously doubt that chain or bar shot was used in the battle of Valcour Island.

[BobCardone]

Oh well... No shot locker, and since they weren't used in the battle, they will be relegated to another project. I have two Model Shipways  1:24 Naval Smoothbore kits I'm going to combine into one, maybe the shot can be used on that.

[Chuck Seiler]

1 hour ago, barkeater said:

I hate to bring it up but I seriously doubt that chain or bar shot was used in the battle of Valcour Island.

 

Not true.  John Bratten's dissertation on the Philadelphia indicates 2 bar shot were found on the Philly, one was in the 12 pounder at the time of sinking.

 

 

Bratten's full dissertation can be found here.

https://nautarch.tamu.edu/Theses/abstracts/bratten.html

 

[BobCardone]

1 hour ago, Chuck Seiler said:

Bratten's full dissertation can be found here.

https://nautarch.tamu.edu/Theses/abstracts/bratten.html

Great! That document is a wealth of interesting and useful info that I wish I would have had earlier. I'll be doing a lot of reading (and correcting things on the boat, I'm sure).

I'm hoping to display the chain and bar, as they add interest and detail to the gun areas. I'll have to figure out some way to do it that's somewhat plausible.

[uss frolick]

Frequent mention was made, in later US Navy correspondence, of "shot-boxes" being brought up on deck prior to an action. Presumably, these contained the grape shot and canister shot, as they would have had to have been stowed somewhere too, other than the shot garlands. Often they would place capstan bars across the shot boxes to use as benches during Sunday services.

 

One question I have always had was, what secured the shot in the shot racks? Just a minor pitch, heave or roll of the ship would send them all flying! So were they secured in place with a strong weave netting, or an upper wooden batten lashed down in place?

[Chuck Seiler]

7 hours ago, BobCardone said:

Great! That document is a wealth of interesting and useful info that I wish I would have had earlier. I'll be doing a lot of reading (and correcting things on the boat, I'm sure).

I'm hoping to display the chain and bar, as they add interest and detail to the gun areas. I'll have to figure out some way to do it that's somewhat plausible.

 

Based on your detail, I thought you HAD the document.

 

Perhaps an open crate with the bar shot.  Bratten says there was only the 2 bar shots but I find it hard to believe that was all they started out with.  He says there were only two 12 pound balls found in the wreck and fifty four 9 pound balls.  Based on how it was anchored, almost all of the firing was from the 12 pounder.  Since the British were sailing into the wind, it would make sense that barshot was used early to impact their ability to close with the Yanks.

 

Based on the numbers, Philly was about to run out of ammunition for the 12 pounder.  I wonder what they would have done if they had not sunk.

[BobCardone]

35 minutes ago, Chuck Seiler said:

Based on your detail, I thought you HAD the document.

No, I based my detail on a combination of all the other Philly build logs on the forum and this awesome video I found on YouTube. (for some reason, the video starts in the middle...)

Video Tour of Philly II

It was recorded as a local cable show on WGOH in Plattsburgh in 1992. It's over an hour long and is painfully amateurish in a likable way. TONS of informative deck shots and a tour by one of the guys who built her.

Here's an idea for a crate (stole from a Tiger Tank kit) for the bar shot, and possibly I could drape the chain shot (if I use it) over a chest (suitably disguised as a chain shot holder).

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by BobCardone
added citation

[mtaylor]

2 hours ago, Chuck Seiler said:

  I wonder what they would have done if they had not sunk.

Rowed like crazy for shore so as not to be captured?   

[Chuck Seiler]

3 hours ago, BobCardone said:

Here's an idea for a crate (stole from a Tiger Tank kit) for the bar shot,

 

Perfect!

[Roger Pellett]

Like the rest of the fleet they would have sailed or probably rowed south through the British line that night and temporarily escaped into the open lake, One of the several incredible incidents of the American Revolution.  By the time the British realized that they were gone it took them several days to catch up and to destroy the Americans (one of the other Gondolas, Spitfire, has been found out in the open lake).  The effect of Arnold’s hastily constructed fleet was to delay the British beyond the end of the summer campaigning season buying another year.

 

When the British tried a year later under Burgoyne they got bogged down in the wilderness south of Fort Ticonderoga and the better organized Americans defeated and captured them at Saratoga.  

 

As another fanous general once said, “It was a close run thing.”  Those wishing to read a great piece of historic fiction about Arnold’s fleet and the Saratoga Campaign should get a copy of Rabble in Arms by Kenneth Roberts.

 

Roger

[Bossman]

Bob, the plans from the Smithsonian show various “shot crates”. I don’t know if they were found with the wreck or if it’s conjecture but as the Philly had no storage except on deck I think your crates are dead on. Love your chain and bar shot by the way!

[BobCardone]

1 hour ago, Bossman said:

but as the Philly had no storage except on deck

In the video I posted earlier there was storage under the forward gun deck (it was the whole width of the boat, about 2-3 foot high and went pretty deep into the bow). This was accessible through the mast well, and they had a whole bunch of stuff crammed in there. In fact, the whole boat was covered with so much stuff there was barely any room to move around. I don't know if the original Philly had the same access, but if I could do my boat over I'd trim down frame #12 (the one on the forward mast well) and replicate what they did for storage on Philly II. I've always thought that frame seemed "unfinished".

1 hour ago, Bossman said:

I think your crates are dead on. Love your chain and bar shot by the way!

   Thanks to a Tamiya Tiger donor for the crate (I'm digging for more) and Goodwill for the beads, sequins and chain for all the types of shot. Now I have to figure out a cool way to do canister. I've found some 1:87 canvas potato sacks that are about the right size, and nice and lumpy.

Edited April 13, 2020 by BobCardone

[BobCardone]

2 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

Those wishing to read a great piece of historic fiction about Arnold’s fleet and the Saratoga Campaign should get a copy of Rabble in Arms by Kenneth Roberts.

Thanks! I just got the book on my Kindle and look forward to reading it!

[Bossman]

Bob, I just looked at the plans from the Smithsonian. There was no storage under the bow gun deck. Under the aft deck was filled with ballast to offset the bow gun. But, it’s your ship!

[BobCardone]

Way too late to change it now anyway. I'm just glad all the bar and chain shot I made will be a plausible addition.

[Chuck Seiler]

20 hours ago, mtaylor said:

Rowed like crazy for shore so as not to be captured? 

 

Row Forrest Row!!!!

[Chuck Seiler]

3 hours ago, Bossman said:

Bob, I just looked at the plans from the Smithsonian. There was no storage under the bow gun deck. Under the aft deck was filled with ballast to offset the bow gun. But, it’s your ship!

 

I don't believe that to be correct.  When I was almost done with my mini Philly, I got to see a much larger model by Dave Yotter based on the Smithsonian plans.  It was open under the forward deck.  At the time I recall the plans supported that.  At one time there was an interactive 3D model of Philly on the Smithsonian website.  It is still there but much less interactive.  Again, it showed under deck storage area.  The pictures I have of the wreck in the Smithy are not conclusive, but it appears to be open.  Then there is the entry from BRATTEN's dissertation:

 

"Only two 12-pound round shot were found indicating that this cannon may have
seen more service during the battle at Valcour Island. One 12-pound shot was found still
resting in the shot garland in the bow and the other under the forward deck. Average
diameter of the 12-pound round shot is 4-13/32 inches.37 Neither is marked."

[Bossman]

Chuck, I stand corrected. That being said, there is no hatch on the bow deck to access the space under it. The space between frames and deck beams is a little more than a foot. I can see things being placed just under the rear of the bow deck, most likely they were but anything forward of arms reach would take a very small man to get it. But, people were smaller then. Interesting discussion. 

[BobCardone]

1 hour ago, Bossman said:

The space between frames and deck beams is a little more than a foot.

I skimmed through the Philly II video, and in this screenshot you can see there is space under the front gun deck. Looks like a crate with rope handles on the starboard side of the mast and a support between the keel and forward gun deck.. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by BobCardone

[Baker]

Just an idea.

I made crates. Filled them up. And placed them near each cannon.

To give the impression that they were brought on deck just beforea they were needed . 

 

 

 

[BobCardone]

4 hours ago, Backer said:

I made crates. Filled them up. And placed them near each cannon.

That's about what I'm going to do also.