Serving the line (shrouds)

[DaveBaxt]

Is it necessary to carry out all three  Worming ,parceling and Serving on model ships or do we generally just do the serving? Also when serving how do we start and end, do we us a knot or just a drop of glue?  Sorry but again could not find what I am looking for in a search. Best regards Dave

[Blue Ensign]

Generally no, there is little point in adding parcelling as it is hidden by the serving.

Worming may be appropriate at larger scales on large cables.

 

In serving you do need to be conscious of the final effect at scale.

 

I sometimes find that serving over true scale lines makes the overall effect look too bulky.

The smallest serving line is around 0.1mm diameter, and I usually reduce the host line diameter a little to compensate.

 

I use a small knot at the start sealed with pva and smear pva along the line as I proceed to keep it tight and reduce the risk of unravelling. At the end I use a spot of glue to hold the line before fixing with a simple square knot.

 

 

B.E.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Blue Ensign

[DaveBaxt]

4 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

Generally no, there is little point in adding parcelling as it is hidden by the serving.

Worming may be appropriate at larger scales on large cables.

 

In serving you do need to be conscious of the final effect at scale.

 

I sometimes find that serving over true scale lines makes the overall effect look too bulky.

The smallest serving line is around 0.1mm diameter, and I usually reduce the host line diameter a little to compensate.

 

I use a small knot at the start sealed with pva and smear pva along the line as I proceed to keep it tight and reduce the risk of unravelling. At the end I use a spot of glue to hold the line before fixing with a simple square knot.

 

 

B.E.

So to be crystal clear is it a square knot a reef knot and is that the knot at the beginning and the end? Thank you for your input and prompt reply B.E. Best regards Dave

[Blue Ensign]

Yes Dave, just a simple knot to secure the ends, pulled tight, sealed with a spot of glue, and trimmed close.

 

B.E.

[DaveBaxt]

On 2/22/2021 at 1:46 PM, Blue Ensign said:

Yes Dave, just a simple knot to secure the ends, pulled tight, sealed with a spot of glue, and trimmed close.

 

B.E.

Thanks for that BE and sorry for the delay in replying. Best regards Dave

[GuntherMT]

I secured the end of my serving with the simple expedient of a needle pulling the thread through the rope where I wanted the serving to start, and then tying a simple knot.  Diluted white glue was used as well over it.

 

 

[BANYAN]

I do the same as Gunther. 

 

BE - Good tip on reducing the size of the host line to compensate for over scaling the serving thread.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[DaveBaxt]

7 hours ago, BANYAN said:

I do the same as Gunther. 

 

BE - Good tip on reducing the size of the host line to compensate for over scaling the serving thread.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Thanks for that Pat, may I ask what size is the serving line for a scale of 1 to 60 or do we use the same size line as for seizing. I note that 0.25 is the smallest in the kit but I have bought a large spool of roughly half that ( very difficult to measure accurately)

[Blue Ensign]

Hi Dave,

I suspect that Amati have provided 1mm ø line for the Fore and Main shrouds which is not that far out at 1:60 scale. Bounty had 7” circ shrouds (4½” for the Mizen)

 

7” circumference equates to 0.94mm ø at scale.

 

Kits mostly have a too limited number of line sizes which reduces your options, but my best guess would be to use the smallest of your lines for serving.

 

At model scale the idea is to get the effect without too much bulk.

 

Here’s a photo of the Fore shrouds of Victory I took some years ago.

These lines are probably synthetic and slightly smaller than the equivalent hemp versions of the day, but give you the idea.

Note the relative sizes of the foremost served shroud and the others.

Note also how the serving goes all the way around the deadeye, another point to consider in relation to the model scale line.

 

 

 

B.E.

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Blue Ensign

[DaveBaxt]

20 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

Hi Dave,

I suspect that Amati have provided 1mm ø line for the Fore and Main shrouds which is not that far out at 1:60 scale. Bounty had 7” circ shrouds (4½” for the Mizen)

 

7” circumference equates to 0.94mm ø at scale.

 

Kits mostly have a too limited number of line sizes which reduces your options, but my best guess would be to use the smallest of your lines for serving.

 

At model scale the idea is to get the effect without too much bulk.

 

Here’s a photo of the Fore shrouds of Victory I took some years ago.

These lines are probably synthetic and slightly smaller than the equivalent hemp versions of the day, but give you the idea.

Note the relative sizes of the foremost served shroud and the others.

Note also how the serving goes all the way around the deadeye, another point to consider in relation to the model scale line.

 

 

 

B.E.

 

BE .Those servings on around the dead eyes must be minute to maintain the correct scale. For the record the The kit supplied 1.3 mm for the fore stays, 1 mm for the shrouds and 0.75 mm for the back stays but nothing about  the serving or seizing or pendant blocks. I have purchased a number of threads which I am intending to use for these which 0.5 mm and 0.15 mm. Thanks again for this more than helpful information. I really hope I can do it justice. Best regards Dave

[xodar461]

Greetings.

 

I am currently working on the shrouds on the Revenge .  I use Syren's serving device.  In Chuck's instructions, he recommends 50 wt down to 100 wt line for serving.  The smallest line I could find by a model co. was Amati at 0.1 mm.  For serving the lines on the Revenge, I found some 50 wt black and tan line that is even smaller.   See pic below - the top is to 50 wt line and bottom is 0.1 mm.  a bit blurry but I think you can see there is a difference.  For smaller scales (Revenge is 1:64), a smaller wt thread such as 60 or 80 could be used.

 

Below is the port main shrouds with the forward most shroud served.  As you can see, the served shroud is just a bit larger than the others and the serving can be barely seen.  For scale, the distance between the horizontal lines used to guide the ratlines is 6mm.

 

 

Jeff

[BANYAN]

Sorry for the delayed response Dave.  For serving, I use sewing machine or fly tying (silk) threads - Gutterman usually - the thinnest I can find.  A lot of the actual serving was done with 'spunyarn' probably of 12 thread or smaller size  ( I have yet to determine the exact size of a 'thread' back then   However, I have found that the thinnest sewing threads (good quality) glace (defuzzed) works quite well for me.  If you can find good quality fly tying threads even better - they come in very fine sizes.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[DaveBaxt]

8 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Sorry for the delayed response Dave.  For serving, I use sewing machine or fly tying (silk) threads - Gutterman usually - the thinnest I can find.  A lot of the actual serving was done with 'spunyarn' probably of 12 thread or smaller size  ( I have yet to determine the exact size of a 'thread' back then   However, I have found that the thinnest sewing threads (good quality) glace (defuzzed) works quite well for me.  If you can find good quality fly tying threads even better - they come in very fine sizes.

 

cheers

 

Pat

I have been having a look at some of the fly tying threads and that is another hobby in itself . Very confusing all the different sizes . However what jumped out and hit me straight away was the pre waxed threads which are also sold in the jewelry making trade . I just wondered what you think of this Pat and if anyone else has tried using this? 

Just for the record  Any help with size 12 thread here in the uk would be appreciated. Thank you Pat for your input It is much appreciated Best regards Dave

Edited February 27, 2021 by DaveBaxt

[BANYAN]

No problem Dave; just glad you find some of the info useful.  I have tried the waxed with some reasonable results (but not on an actual model as yet).  I try to get the silk stuff, which by and large doesn't need to be waxed.  I tend to stay away from prewaxed as the wax tends to seal the thread making it harder to secure the ends (varnish/glue).  The overall driving thing for me is size as the small size stuff, even f not glace/defuzzed is so small, and usually wound so tight the fuzz either does not show much or is very easy to remove if it does show.  

 

If you have any dedicated 'fly fishing shops' in the vicinity a visit may be worth you while.  My local guy here did not stock silk thread but did offer to get it in if he could.  I still have enough so have not taken up the offer yet.  There was a recent thread (title is not coming to me at the moment) where someone helpfully identified a source for it (and other fishing/boating related thread).  If I run across it again I will post a link.

 

For the cotton/silk sewing threads I contacted the importer direct (by email) and they were very helpful.  If you are interested I have put together an article on threads for my club; happy to send you a copy - just PM me if you are interested.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[DaveBaxt]

21 hours ago, BANYAN said:

No problem Dave; just glad you find some of the info useful.  I have tried the waxed with some reasonable results (but not on an actual model as yet).  I try to get the silk stuff, which by and large doesn't need to be waxed.  I tend to stay away from prewaxed as the wax tends to seal the thread making it harder to secure the ends (varnish/glue).  The overall driving thing for me is size as the small size stuff, even f not glace/defuzzed is so small, and usually wound so tight the fuzz either does not show much or is very easy to remove if it does show.  

 

If you have any dedicated 'fly fishing shops' in the vicinity a visit may be worth you while.  My local guy here did not stock silk thread but did offer to get it in if he could.  I still have enough so have not taken up the offer yet.  There was a recent thread (title is not coming to me at the moment) where someone helpfully identified a source for it (and other fishing/boating related thread).  If I run across it again I will post a link.

 

For the cotton/silk sewing threads I contacted the importer direct (by email) and they were very helpful.  If you are interested I have put together an article on threads for my club; happy to send you a copy - just PM me if you are interested.

 

cheers

 

Pat

Hello Pat Sorry for any delay in my reply. I definately need some thing different for seizing that what I am using as I am finding it very difficult to work with. Apart from cutting into my hands it seems very difficult to absorb any wax . I believe it to be thin enough but its not stiffening up like the other thicker threads and is very difficult to work with. I would be very interested in the article you have wrote and would be grateful for a pm. Hoefully it would shine some light on what in itself is quite a complex subject. Best regards Dave

[wefalck]

Fly-tying threads are usually measured in 'deniers', that is weight of 9000 metres of a yarn (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_textile_measurement). In other words, the lower the of 'den' the finer the yarn. By using a rough bulk density of the material (nylon) of 1.1 g cm^3 and some simple calculations, one can estimate the diameter of the yarn.

 

The finest thread (apart from monofilament) I have come is Veevus's (of Denmark) 16/0 which is equivalent to 50 den. The problem with fly-tying threads is that they are quite expensive, as a spool may cost you 2 to 3 €, but contains only 75 m. If I got my calculations right, it would have a diametre of around 0,04 mm. Again, if I got my calculations right, one spool of the 16/0 would allow you to serve a 1 mm diametre shroud of 1m length.

 

I got my supply of Veevus through the well-know electronic bay, where you can find various other brands too.

[bartley]

On 2/27/2021 at 4:48 PM, DaveBaxt said:

I have been having a look at some of the fly tying threads and that is another hobby in itself . Very confusing all the different sizes .

 

 

Dave,

 

Fly tying threads are indeed confusing.  They have a different purpose of course.  However, I can give you some information.  Nominally the higher the number the thinner the thread so 16/0 is thinner than 8/0.  I use Veevus 16/0.

This is made of polyester and the diameter is 0.038 mm.  Their 8/0 thread which should be twice the diameter but is given as 0.059.  The strength (which is what matters to fishermen) is about double that of 16/0.  Most threads are polyester but there are also nylon, kevlar and polyethylene threads.

 

John

Edited March 7, 2021 by bartley

[DaveBaxt]

7 hours ago, bartley said:

 

 

Dave,

 

Fly tying threads are indeed confusing.  They have a different purpose of course.  However, I can give you some information.  Nominally the higher the number the thinner the thread so 16/0 is thinner than 8/0.  I use Vevus 16/0.

This is made of polyester and the diameter is 0.038 mm.  Their 8/0 thread which should be twice the diameter is given as 0.059.  The strength (which is what matters to fishermen) is about double that of 16/0.  Most threads are polyester but there are also nylon, kevlar and polyethylene threads.

 

John

Thanks John for your input and I have just ordered some of the thread you use 16 so hopefully now I can make a start on the rigging which at the moment is totally confusing. So no doubt I will be asking a lot more questions best regards Dave

[DaveBaxt]

On 3/1/2021 at 9:40 PM, wefalck said:

Fly-tying threads are usually measured in 'deniers', that is weight of 9000 metres of a yarn (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_textile_measurement). In other words, the lower the of 'den' the finer the yarn. By using a rough bulk density of the material (nylon) of 1.1 g cm^3 and some simple calculations, one can estimate the diameter of the yarn.

 

The finest thread (apart from monofilament) I have come is Veevus's (of Denmark) 16/0 which is equivalent to 50 den. The problem with fly-tying threads is that they are quite expensive, as a spool may cost you 2 to 3 €, but contains only 75 m. If I got my calculations right, it would have a diametre of around 0,04 mm. Again, if I got my calculations right, one spool of the 16/0 would allow you to serve a 1 mm diametre shroud of 1m length.

 

I got my supply of Veevus through the well-know electronic bay, where you can find various other brands too.

Thanks for your input. I have now managed to source some here in the uk and should be with me soon. Thanks for the tip where to get the Veevus threads from best regards Dave

[bartley]

On 3/3/2021 at 6:59 PM, DaveBaxt said:

Thanks for your input. I have now managed to source some here in the uk and should be with me soon. Thanks for the tip where to get the Veevus threads from best regards Dave

  Dave

 

On my Cheerful build log  here I have just posted some information about how various threads influence the final diameter of the line.

 

John

[DaveBaxt]

1 hour ago, bartley said:

  Dave

 

On my Cheerful build log  here I have just posted some information about how various threads influence the final diameter of the line.

 

John

Thank you John for the link. I now have some of those threads you mmentioned and look and can now sww where I need to go with this. That serving machine sounds interesting and wonder if they deliver such a thing to the Uk. Best regards Dave

[bartley]

Chuck does deliver to the UK.  Just click the "Syren"  link amongst the sponsors on the right hand side and that will take you to his site where you will see a description of his "Servomatic" which i use for serving.  There are other models but his is simple and inexpensive.

 

John

[wefalck]

Not so difficult to build one oneself and it is always satisfying to make oneself the tools one needs. Some bits of wood, a steel rod as axle, four spur-wheels and some hardware - if you don't want for industrial production. There are some good examples here on MSW. There was even a thread on their construction a couple of years or so ago.

[DaveBaxt]

20 hours ago, wefalck said:

Not so difficult to build one oneself and it is always satisfying to make oneself the tools one needs. Some bits of wood, a steel rod as axle, four spur-wheels and some hardware - if you don't want for industrial production. There are some good examples here on MSW. There was even a thread on their construction a couple of years or so ago.

Thank you wefalck for your input and agree it does,t look to difficult to make and will take a search for the thread you mention. Just wondering about sourcing the parts and would it be much more expensive to get one of chucks servomatic shipped out to the uk. I now see that the servo matic is sold out so the only option at the moment is to make one. I now have a choice to make. For the length of time it takes to make one of these or do I continue to work on the model. I would imagine serving those lines would be a lengthy process? I am all for time saving gizmos.Best regards Dave

Edited March 9, 2021 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

20 hours ago, bartley said:

Chuck does deliver to the UK.  Just click the "Syren"  link amongst the sponsors on the right hand side and that will take you to his site where you will see a description of his "Servomatic" which i use for serving.  There are other models but his is simple and inexpensive.

 

John

Thank you John. I have just noticed that they are currently sold out.

[wefalck]

Speed is not so much the point, but regularity is important. For this you need a constant pull on the serving yarn and regular feed along the rope being served. This is on a model scale difficult to achieve by other means than a serving machine.

 

Essentially, a serving machine is nothing else but two hooks that are driven synchronously so as not to impart a twist onto the rope being served. On of the hooks needs to be adjustable in position so that the rope can be tensioned.

So, you need two identical sets of cog-wheels. Plastic ones are the cheapest, brass ones more posh and durable, but also far more expensive. Plastic ones can be found in model shops. There are also speciality suppliers, such as hpc-gears in the UK, who sell gears in brass, steel, nylon and delrin (https://www.hpcgears.com/). I gather cheapo plastic ones can be had for a couple of quid.

Then you need some steel rod for the connection and the axles cum hook. That you get in DIY stores.

You also a crank or something to turn one of the cog-wheels into a crank.

Finally, you need some sort of base-board and two pieces of wood as brackets plus some screws to keep everything together.

You can improve the machine by adding some self-lubracting bushings, rather than just drilling holes into the wood. They can be found on the Internet or in some model shops.

 

For added sturdiness, I would probably make such machine much lower than the ones offered commercially. Not sure why they choose such spidery design. On the other hand, a high clearance under the rope being served allows you to use a self-travelling spool of yarn, as per the design by 'archojofo' here on the forum.

 

If you had an old meccano set, you could fashion such machine also from those parts. Lego might work as well.

[Roger Pellett]

Here’s an example of a serving machine that I built several years ago.  The gears are invisible as they are sandwiched between the two MDF end pieces on each side.  I used gears picked up as samples at a trade scow many years ago but whole bags of plastic gears are available cheaply on Amazon.  I played with a way to hold the thread spool but when I actually used it I found that it worked better just to hold it in my hand.  The only things that I had to buy were the two alligator clips so the whole project cost less than $3.00 US.  

 

Roger

[Dziadeczek]

7 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

... I played with a way to hold the thread spool but when I actually used it I found that it worked better just to hold it in my hand...

 

If you do a lot of serving, it pays to fashion from scraps of brass a small device, that is suspended under the served rope and contains a spool of thread for serving, is moving along the rope while serving it simultaneously. A sort of, small variation on the so called, bow string server, used in archery.

I made one long time ago and it works perfectly every time. I also made a long(er) serving machine - mine is 2.5 ft long and powered with a DC motor, so the entire process of serving is fully automated, hands free, and the serving is very even and tight along the entire length of the rope.

Here is one of the served stays for my model of the French 74 gun ship 1:48.

[DaveBaxt]

On 3/9/2021 at 8:44 AM, wefalck said:

Speed is not so much the point, but regularity is important. For this you need a constant pull on the serving yarn and regular feed along the rope being served. This is on a model scale difficult to achieve by other means than a serving machine.

 

Essentially, a serving machine is nothing else but two hooks that are driven synchronously so as not to impart a twist onto the rope being served. On of the hooks needs to be adjustable in position so that the rope can be tensioned.

So, you need two identical sets of cog-wheels. Plastic ones are the cheapest, brass ones more posh and durable, but also far more expensive. Plastic ones can be found in model shops. There are also speciality suppliers, such as hpc-gears in the UK, who sell gears in brass, steel, nylon and delrin (https://www.hpcgears.com/). I gather cheapo plastic ones can be had for a couple of quid.

Then you need some steel rod for the connection and the axles cum hook. That you get in DIY stores.

You also a crank or something to turn one of the cog-wheels into a crank.

Finally, you need some sort of base-board and two pieces of wood as brackets plus some screws to keep everything together.

You can improve the machine by adding some self-lubracting bushings, rather than just drilling holes into the wood. They can be found on the Internet or in some model shops.

 

For added sturdiness, I would probably make such machine much lower than the ones offered commercially. Not sure why they choose such spidery design. On the other hand, a high clearance under the rope being served allows you to use a self-travelling spool of yarn, as per the design by 'archojofo' here on the forum.

 

If you had an old meccano set, you could fashion such machine also from those parts. Lego might work as well.

Ah the grand days of my youth when every Christmas I looked forwatd to the next level of meccano. Thanks for all that information regarding the sering machine which I am pretty sure I could now put together.Best regards Dave

[popeye2sea]

13 hours ago, Dziadeczek said:

If you do a lot of serving, it pays to fashion from scraps of brass a small device, that is suspended under the served rope and contains a spool of thread for serving, is moving along the rope while serving it simultaneously. A sort of, small variation on the so called, bow string server, used in archery.

 

That is a really nice set up you have made there.

 

Regards,