HMS Beagle by Penfold - OcCre - 1/60

[Penfold]

2 hours ago, robert952 said:

Just now jumping on board this log.  I appreciate the details in this log.  Also, thanks to those contributing their experience and tips.  

 

Nice looking ship.  As you said, interesting history to go along with it. 

Thank you, and welcome aboard.

[Kevin]

looking great, well done

[Penfold]

On 7/29/2022 at 7:37 AM, Kevin said:

looking great, well done

Thank you Kevin.

[Penfold]

A question occurred to me as I was looking through the instructions this evening, and that is why isn’t the name of the ship emblazoned anywhere on the ship. Ordinarily wouldn’t we expect it to be across the transom?

[allanyed]

Penfold

The short answer is that ordinarily you would not see the name anywhere on a Royal Navy vessel until more modern times.

 

The Admiralty did not allow names on their vessels with the exception of between 1780 and 1790.   I have seen two or three contemporary models outside this time period, including the Bellona 1760 that did in fact have a name on the counter. Presumably not having the name had to do with minimizing information available to enemy nations.  As she was built as a Cherokee-class 10 gun brig sloop for the Royal Navy perhaps Beagle, while not a warship in later years, continued to follow this edict throughout her life.  I realize we see a number of kits that have names on the stern, but with the exception of that 10 year span this was not normally the case in real life.  Note that when they were on the stern they were painted (not carved letters) and usually, if not always, on the upper counter which are part of the stern timbers.   There were also specifications on the sizes of the letters that varied over that 10 year period.   

Allan

[Penfold]

6 hours ago, allanyed said:

Penfold

The short answer is that ordinarily you would not see the name anywhere on a Royal Navy vessel until more modern times.

 

The Admiralty did not allow names on their vessels with the exception of between 1780 and 1790.   I have seen two or three contemporary models outside this time period, including the Bellona 1760 that did in fact have a name on the counter. Presumably not having the name had to do with minimizing information available to enemy nations.  As she was built as a Cherokee-class 10 gun brig sloop for the Royal Navy perhaps Beagle, while not a warship in later years, continued to follow this edict throughout her life.  I realize we see a number of kits that have names on the stern, but with the exception of that 10 year span this was not normally the case in real life.  Note that when they were on the stern they were painted (not carved letters) and usually, if not always, on the upper counter which are part of the stern timbers.   There were also specifications on the sizes of the letters that varied over that 10 year period.   

Allan

Well blow me sideways!!! Who knew?

I was under a total misapprehension there then.

Thanks again for sharing the knowledge👍

[allanyed]

31 minutes ago, Penfold said:

Thanks again for sharing the knowledge👍

Penfold,

 

Thank you for the compliment. 😀   

 

Allan

[Penfold]

Finally got some time back in the boatyard!  I’ve managed to get the keel on, which I reinforced with some brass rods like I did on the Bluenose. Also I finally got a few coats of varnish on the old girl…

[Penfold]

I’ve also started on the other ‘little’ boats which will go on the ship.

[Penfold]

Very happy how this one has turned out, especially after I really struggled with the little boats on Bluenose and ended up abandoning them.

 

Only another three of them to do!!

[The Gimps Chimp]

Hi Penfold,

You've made a very nice job of that small boat, I know how difficult they can be.  The whole thing is starting to take shape, you're doing some good work there.  I'm watching with interest  

Regards

Chimp

[allanyed]

Penfold,

Your workmanship continues to be very neat and solid, thank you for sharing with all of us.    Just as an FYI, the tholes on ships boats did not look like the OcCre design nor were they located as shown.  For double banked there would be a pair for every thwart and for single banked the tholes would alternate port/starboard for every other thwart.  The photo in the plans shows neither.  This is an easy fix even if OcCre got it wrong.  The sketches below show single banked with six thwarts and double banked with five thwarts.   

 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by allanyed

[The Gimps Chimp]

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

Penfold,

Your workmanship continues to be very neat and solid, thank you for sharing with all of us.    Just as an FYI, the tholes on ships boats did not look like the OcCre design nor were they located as shown.  For double banked there would be a pair for every thwart and for single banked the tholes would alternate port/starboard for every other thwart.  The photo in the plans shows neither.  This is an easy fix even if OcCre got it wrong.  One solution is in the sketch below as if it were single banked.  As you show five thwarts, double banked would make more sense 

 

 

Hi Allan,

I was interested by your post regarding tholes and thwarts on small boats, though it took me awhile to understand as I'm not very knowledgeable in nautical terms.   I'm sure that what you say is absolutely correct and I don't mean to question your post, but to understand the true picture.  I'm also in the process of making these boats for the Beagle and in complete ignorance followed the instructions supplied by the manufacturer.  I must admit I've found the supplied instructions to be limited and lacking in many areas during my build.  I also make reference to the AotS for the Beagle, which I have taken to be far superior in detail.  It looks like the manufacturer has also followed the AotS of this occasion as the two appear to be consistent.  Looking at the 26ft yawl it shows the following:

 

Have I misunderstood the drawings.  It's difficult to know from the plan and side view if the tholes alternate.  To me it looks like they don't but I can fully understand why they should.  Has the AotS got it wrong?

 

The whaleboats show a single thole as follows:

 

This also has the problem of not showing alternating tholes.

 

Best regards

Chimp

[Penfold]

😂

well my first reaction is, “ what the bleep is a thole?”

Now I’ll go and look in a dictionary

Edited September 5, 2022 by Penfold

[allanyed]

Hi Chimp

The drawings you show appear to be correct unlike the OcCre boat designs which are OcCre's own fantasy.  The drawings can be a little confusing.    The top view only shows half the boat so it was probably assumed by many that the tholes were the same on port and starboard which is not the case for single banked boats.  There are tholes on the alternate thwarts on the opposite side but are not always shown on the original drawings.   There are photos of contemporary models of ships' boats on the RMG Collections website that show how the tholes were arranged.  Lavery's Arming and Fitting and May's Boats of Men of War go into these kinds of details as well and are possibly two of the very best sources of information, including scantlings on everything from the ears to the futtocks.   

Allan 

 

[The Gimps Chimp]

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

Hi Chimp

The drawings you show appear to be correct unlike the OcCre boat designs which are OcCre's own fantasy.  The drawings can be a little confusing.    The top view only shows half the boat so it was probably assumed by many that the tholes were the same on port and starboard which is not the case for single banked boats.  There are tholes on the alternate thwarts on the opposite side but are not always shown on the original drawings.   There are photos of contemporary models of ships' boats on the RMG Collections website that show how the tholes were arranged.  Lavery's Arming and Fitting and May's Boats of Men of War go into these kinds of details as well and are possibly two of the very best sources of information, including scantlings on everything from the ears to the futtocks.   

Allan 

 

Hi Allan,

Many thanks for taking the time to add further clarification.  What you describe makes perfect sense, it's just unfortunate that the drawings make the issue a little confusing for people like myself with only little knowledge of such things.  I guess that's what we're all doing here, some teaching and some (if not all) learning.

 

Thanks again for clearing things up.

Chimp

[allanyed]

Chimp,

I am glad to help.  

9 minutes ago, The Gimps Chimp said:

some teaching and some (if not all) learning.

 

That is soooooo true.  Never a day goes by that I do not see and/or learn something new, especially here at MSW.     

 

Allan

[Penfold]

OK Gents, and thanks for this insight. I think I get it.

Are we saying that OcCre have it wrong in that they should be double banked, or should we have an extra thwart? 
Would they actually do an odd number of thwarts and single bank them. It seems to me that three on one side and two on the other might lead to a bit of going round in circles.

 

That said, I appreciate the limitation of scale here and putting the tholes in really was the fiddliest bit of doing that boat. I’m not going to change this boat, but I’d like to get it right in future.

[Penfold]

PS Thanks also for the kind words. 
As I use an airbrush for the varnish, I’ve had to delay doing that because of the hot weather we’ve been having. That’s why I started on the little boat.

Im hoping that the pace might pick up a little now.

[allanyed]

6 hours ago, Penfold said:

Are we saying that OcCre have it wrong

Yes, but that is not surprising considering the brand. 

 

If there are odd number of thwarts the boat is likely double banked as you rightly point out, and there should normally be the same number of oars working on each side of the boat.   An exception at times were whalers in that some whale boats had two rowers on one side and three on the other.   But there are also double banked with an even number of thwarts.   The easiest way to tell is by the size of the boat.  If the breadth is sufficiently wide, it is likely double banked.    

 

This brings up a good point for which I have yet to find an answer based on contemporary information.  What is the minimum breadth for a double banked boat?  The larger boats were double banked, but "larger" is a relative term and not at all determinative.  

6 hours ago, Penfold said:

I’m not going to change this boat, but I’d like to get it right in future.

Good for you!!!   

Allan 

[Penfold]

[Penfold]

I’ve got a few touch up bits to sort, but overall I’m happy with the paint job.

I had been nervous about doing the paint but seems OK to me.

[Tim Moore]

It’s great - a beautiful hull rendition.

[Penfold]

Thank you. It hasn’t been without issue, but mostly those have been caused by my own ineptitude.

 

[Penfold]

I’ve been having a bit of a play and tinkered with doing the cannon…

I’mquite pleased how they turned out.

I mixed the bronze paint with a little black to dull it down a little, which worked well I feel.

…but I didn’t like how the guns just rested on the carriages, so I cut tiny pieces of wine bottle foil  to use as restraints (capsquare?)and painted them black.

The carronade looks good too. 
Did you know that the name ‘Carronade’ is derived from the Carron ironworks in Falkirk, where they were made.(Found this out doing family history research… one of my wife’s ancestors worked there!)

Edited September 25, 2022 by Penfold

[Penfold]

Oh yeah… I got the hammocks in too.

[mikegr]

On 6/22/2022 at 11:08 PM, Penfold said:

Considering how the first planking went, I’m happy with that so far.

you save it pretty well

there are tones of building info for Beagle, online as well as full tutorial step by step on you tube

[allanyed]

On 9/25/2022 at 11:48 AM, Penfold said:

Did you know that the name ‘Carronade’ is derived from the Carron ironworks in Falkirk, where they were made.(Found this out doing family history research… one of my wife’s ancestors worked there!)

That is very cool to be related.  There is a good history on the designer of the carronade and how it was then given to the Carron Company to actually be made. Carron did not design the gun but, but there is still some argument as to which of the individuals that claimed credit for the design actually did.   Most seem to favor General Robert Melville of the British Infantry.  He conceived the idea of the weapon in 1753 when stationed in Cork but did not propose the weapon to Carron until 1774.   Some believe the design came from Charles Gascoigne, a partner with Carron who tried without success to patent the design in his name as reported in 1779 in the Scots Magazine and Patrick Miller, an Edinburgh merchant whose claim many believe was self-generated.   There is a good bit more of detail on the history in Adrian Caruana's The History of English Sea Ordnance, Volume II, 161-164.   

Allan

[Penfold]

Been a while since I posted… I’ve been procrastinating and putting off attaching the rudder by doing the Little boats and other bits for the main deck (I’ll post some pics later)

I’d also managed the brasswork on the stern and painted it.

So…. The rudder then!

I have fed so many tiny bits of brass nail to the carpet monster today 😔 and managed to break the rudder twice in the process, but for a first time fitting a rudder this way, I’m happy enough!

 

I don’t really get the brass wire work at the stern or what it’s supposed to represent, but it’s what the instructions say, and mine looks pretty close to the pics  on the instructions.

The gardens went in OK but needed some putty to fill underneath as the hull shape doesn’t really match the flatness of the die cast pieces. I also used putty to fill in the brass wire before painting. ( I Know… some touching up needed).

[Capella]

5 hours ago, Penfold said:

😔BI don’t really get the brass wire work at the stern or what it’s supposed to represent, but it’s what the instructions say, and mine looks pretty close to the pics  on the instructions.

While waiting for some glue to dry (I'm on my first planking on my Beagle) I was looking ahead in the instructions and noticed that too.

 

I don't get why they have to spend the effort on shaping them and then painting over them. But, as you said, it's in the instructions, so I guess that's how I'll do it!