Minimum plank length

[Don Case]

It seems that I've been doing nothing but reading about planking and a lot of places say the minimum length is in the contract ie. 20-25 feet or so. That's not the minimum length I'm looking for. If a ship is 110' long and the contract calls for minimum 25" what do they do when they get to the end and have a 10' gap to fill? Is there be a "plank must cover "X" number of frames or something" rule?

[mtaylor]

The key, Don, is the word "minimum".   They could use bigger and more than likely did.

[druxey]

And, of course, shorter lengths were employed at the bow and stern!

[Bob Cleek]

And two fifteens are better than a twenty and a ten.

[Don Case]

I guess I asked that wrong. Is it OK to have a plank  that's only long enough to contact 2 frames? I need drop plank as close to the stem as I can get it for maximum taper.

[Don Case]

1 hour ago, druxey said:

And, of course, shorter lengths were employed at the bow and stern!

How short?

[druxey]

It all depends, Don!

[Don Case]

I don't understand. I thought this was a dead straight forward question. It's looking to me like there is no point in asking questions on here. You never get a straight answer.

[Jack12477]

5 hours ago, Don Case said:

That's not the minimum length I'm looking for. If a ship is 110' long and the contract calls for minimum 25" what do they do when they get to the end and have a 10' gap to fill?

If the minimum plank length is 25 ft and the ship is 110 ft, then two 40 ft  long planks plus a 30 ft plank would meet the minimum length  specified in the contract (40+40+30=110 or 30+30+25+25=110).  Minimum does not preclude using longer length boards, but it does preclude using shorter lengths, as in your example, 10 ft, 15 ft or 20 ft. 

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Jack12477

[mtaylor]

43 minutes ago, Don Case said:

I don't understand. I thought this was a dead straight forward question. It's looking to me like there is no point in asking questions on here. You never get a straight answer.

You got straight answers.  Both Jack and I said the same thing... Nothing wrong with using longer planks.  And yes, much did depend on the yard where the ship was built and what they had available.   So, basically, go for "longer" planks and use what Jack said as guide.  Druxey is also right about shorter lengths.   Also shorter ones may have been used between the hatches.

[Bob Cleek]

3 hours ago, Don Case said:

I guess I asked that wrong. Is it OK to have a plank  that's only long enough to contact 2 frames? I need drop plank as close to the stem as I can get it for maximum taper.

I would consider that to be too short. The planker has to lay out his planking to avoid situations like that, if at all possible.

[Don Case]

Here is an expansion drawing of the HMS Squirrel that Alan linked for me. Squirrel (1785) - National Maritime Museum (rmg.co.uk) The plank lengths are blurry but you can make out that most of them in midships are in the 25 or so range. The scale at the bottom is clear enough so you can get closer measurements if you want. Now look at the bow and stern. Note the stubby little planks. A lot of single digit lengths. These planks probably don't make the minimum. These are the planks I'm talking about. How short can they be? My logic tells me that there would be a shipwrights rule telling him how many frames it has to be attached to.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Don Case

[Eric1]

If putting plywood on a roof you must use at least 3 trusses, as 2 could bow and break free. I would assume the same on ship building.

[Don Case]

That's the kind of rule I'm looking for.

[allanyed]

Don,

I don't know if it is a good idea to use house roofing rules for building a ship.  2X8 roof trusses are typically about 1.6 inches thick where as frames are sided in the 10 to 12 inch range, sometimes more.  Roof trusses are typically on 16 inch centers if I remember correctly so they are 14.4 inches asunder, but there is only about  an inch or two between frames.   Even for deck planking, the ledges are no more than 9 inches asunder.   Plywood was first patented before Discovery was built but I doubt it was used for her planking.  

 

For a clearer drawing of Squirrel or some others you can purchase a high res image from NMM.  If you are interested in a high res printed version of the planking expansion for Squirrel from NMM, PM me as I no longer have need of my printed set of Squirrel drawings.   The drawing has a scaled rule at the bottom and the station lines are there as well. Every plank inboard and outboard has the plank length written on it.  If you study the framing plan and compare it with the planking expansion drawing you can determine how many frames each plank crosses.  I just took a look at the plans and it only took a few seconds to determine how many frames the shortest pieces crossed.   

 

Allan   

 

 

[druxey]

If only a  hull were as easy to plank a s a roof!!!

[wefalck]

14 hours ago, Don Case said:

I don't understand. I thought this was a dead straight forward question. It's looking to me like there is no point in asking questions on here. You never get a straight answer.

I think this is a rather unfair comment !  If there is a straight anwer, you will probably get it. But it is a matter of asking also the 'right' question - a waffly question will result by necessity in a waffly answer. One has to specify the country and the period at least, as most answer will strongly depend on these two variables.

 

What people today also tend to forget, that the shipbuilders of the day couldn't just walk into a DIY shop and get the material they wanted (and even today you may not find the right stuff for a job), but had to do with what was available. In general, naval yards had (more) control over their supply chain and could impose stricter rules, while in commercial shipping it was more a question of what the customer was willing to pay and what they were able to lay their hands on.

 

So please be fair to those, who volunteer to make comments with the best of their knowledge on a subject, where a lot of detail knowledge has been forgotten over the centuries.

[tedrobinson2000]

My guess is that the "minimum" length specified in historical contracts was the minimum lumber length that the shipyard would accept from the lumber supplier - not the minimum length that would be applied during the planking procedure. Note also that short lengths of planking are much harder to apply in area of extreme curvature, such as the bows.  Seems to me that the shipwright would have lined the hull in such a way as to avoid shorter lengths in those areas. Doesn't mean that shorter lengths weren't necessary elsewhere.

[allanyed]

Ted,  What you say makes sense, but actually short pieces were indeed in the bow and stern at times.  On the Squirrel, there were five ceiling strakes with the forward most planks between 6' 3" and 11' 0".   There were also seven strakes of the outboard planking where the forward most pieces were from    7' 6" to 11' 0" long.  These go from the strake just above the garboard up to even with forecastle.  

Allan

Edited June 6, 2021 by allanyed

[Don Case]

I want to apologize to you guys. I went off the handle and I shouldn't have. I just get frustrated with some of the responses I get when they're not what I'm expecting. I'm green and don't know what I don't know. I have a lot of trouble even formulating questions let alone know what I should include. I figured my build notification at the end of every post would give all the info needed. Even though I don't get all the answers I want I have gotten a ton of info while on here and I thank you for that.

Sorry

Don

[mtaylor]

No worries, Don.  Part of it is terminology.  I really hope you'll pick up book or two. I'm listing two that are often recommended for those starting out on the model shipyard journey. Both are well illustrated which is a plus in my opinion.

 

I suggest one is "Building the Wooden Fighting Ship" by Dodds and Moore.  The other is "Historic Ship Model" by zu Mondfeld.   

 

"Building the "Wooden Fighting Ship" is an easy read and gives you a lot of perspective and knowledge of what went into building one including the how they were designed, built, shipyard tasks, etc.

 

zu Mondfeld is also a easy to read and use and basically covers all aspects of period modeling and shipbuilding including terminology.  For many of us, its a goto book for at a minimum of learning which questions to ask.  While there are errors in this one, they're not show stoppers.

 

Both books are usually on Amazon at very reasonable prices.  

[Alex M]

original sources like Steel and Fincham states that planks should be not shorter than 6 feet.

[Don Case]

3 hours ago, Alex M said:

original sources like Steel and Fincham states that planks should be not shorter than 6 feet.

I was reading Steel's "Elements" and was just getting in to some plank stuff and then fell asleep. I'm going to read it again tonight. Do you know of hand where Steel said that?

I've ordered zu Mondfeld but the other one is to steep for me.

[mtaylor]

13 minutes ago, Don Case said:

I've ordered zu Mondfeld but the other one is to steep for me.

Good on the zu Mondfeld.  I think you'll find it to be a big help.  As for the other one, it really doesn't surprise me.  I've been hearing that a lot of book prices are now out of this world.  Not sure if it's speculators or just greed on the part of the sellers.

[Don Case]

On 6/6/2021 at 3:11 AM, allanyed said:

Don,

For a clearer drawing of Squirrel or some others you can purchase a high res image from NMM.  If you are interested in a high res printed version of the planking expansion for Squirrel from NMM, PM me as I no longer have need of my printed set of Squirrel drawings.   The drawing has a scaled rule at the bottom and the station lines are there as well. Every plank inboard and outboard has the plank length written on it.  If you study the framing plan and compare it with the planking expansion drawing you can determine how many frames each plank crosses.  I just took a look at the plans and it only took a few seconds to determine how many frames the shortest pieces crossed.   

 

Allan   

 

 

Thanks for the offer Alan but I think I can get what I want from the NMM thumbnails. I haven't compared the frames with the expansion yet, I've been to busy planking and reading Steel.

I tried PMing you but it said you can't receive messages

Thanks again

Don

[allanyed]

That is odd.  I am PMing you to see if it goes through.

Allan

[Alex M]

Hi Don,

 

sorry, I are relatively sure I have read about 6 feet minimum length, but can't remember more where... I must not be exactly Steel, but was one of contemporary books.

 

Alex