How to seize a block to an iron band

[wefalck]

The point is to be cautious with 'sources' and to understand that for certain questions there are not definitive answers, but only probabilities ... it is a good idea to understand this as early as possible in order not to run into unresolvable issues.

[Gregory]

The point is, don't scare off an aspiring modeler with minutia..

[glbarlow]

This is a beginning modeler trying to solve a simple task. Everything doesn’t need to go down long confusing trails of maritime history. Sometimes attaching a block on a mast is just attaching a block on a mast.  

[Laggard]

I’m humbled by this hobby.  I assembled many plastic models as a kid and as an adult assembled and flew many an RC plane. 
 

Few of those learned skills transfer to wood ships.  😜

[Gregory]

Many of us started with plastic but became infatuated with wood model ships..

 

Enjoy the ride and learn as you go..  Don't get bogged down by the rivet counters..

 

I'm reminded of the cliché  about asking someone for the time, and getting a lecture about how to make a watch..

Edited August 25, 2021 by Gregory

[PRS]

1 hour ago, Laggard said:

I’m humbled by this hobby.  I assembled many plastic models as a kid and as an adult assembled and flew many an RC plane. 
 

Few of those learned skills transfer to wood ships.  😜

Some of the skills transfer. One of the best skills is Chuck's advice of working slow and making each step it's own task and enjoying the build process.

[Dr PR]

Laggard,

 

Patience and perseverance are the most important qualities of a wooden ship model builder, and if you have made it this far through this thread you have both!

 

Don't be too critical of your first model or two. They are learning experiences. None of us builds a museum piece on our first try. There are a lot of new techniques and materials to learn about, and even some historical trivia to enlighten the experience.

[Bob Cleek]

15 hours ago, Gregory said:

The builder of this contemporary 1742 model didn't get the memo..😁

 

 

The kit is a very well done perfect recreation of the contemporary model, but the contemporary model has some issues with its rigging, or so it would appear to a sailor's eye.. 

[allanyed]

7 hours ago, Dr PR said:

and if you have made it this far through this thread you have both!

Well said Phil!!!!   Much more astute and mature than the sarcasm and name calling (rivet counters) others have shared with us.

Allan  (A happy rivet counter)

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by allanyed

[Laggard]

Working on a block I have doubts about my ability to even tie a line to a block.  This line is just so thin and soft I don’t know that I can do it.  I’m a bit bummed out at the moment about the whole endeavor. 

[wefalck]

Perhaps getting some proper 'model rope' will help. These are somewhat stiffer and keep in shape - apart from looking like the real thing. There are European sources (e.g. Morope) or from 'Chuck' here on the forum, if you are in Northamerica.

[Paul Jarman]

31 minutes ago, Laggard said:

Working on a block I have doubts about my ability to even tie a line to a block.  This line is just so thin and soft I don’t know that I can do it.  I’m a bit bummed out at the moment about the whole endeavor. 

Try not to get to disheartened by this part of the build. I have the same problem myself. Some modelers can tie the smallest of knots with pefection others Can't.

When I first started tieing blocks I used a piece of two by two wood to represent the block and practiced tieing with a shoelace. If you look at the blocks I have tied you will see they are not seized or tied with any fancy knots.  I hold the block in a pin vice to keep  it steady and  just tie them with a simple knot or a fishermans knot. And to tie them to the mast I use an eyebolt and that works just fine. 

You just have to build up your confidence and keep practicing. It will work out in the end with a bit of patience. 

You also need to take into account Where the model is going to be displayed. If you are building on commission and the model is being displayed for public viewing then it needs to be perfect. If you are displaying it in your home then the knots won't need to be tied with such perfection. And you will look at your finished model with pride. And as you build more models especially large-scale kits you will wonder why you where so frustrated in the first place. 

Just hang in there keep practicing and it will all come together in the end.

Paul

[wefalck]

And keep in mind, that with blocks, no knots are needed anyway, just 'fake' splices that are easily achieved with an ordinary sewing needle ...

[amateur]

Somewhere onthis forum was a nice illustration of those fake splices (but where....) 

the idea is to use a needle to get the rope once or twice through its own strands, use a little bit of glue (normal pva will do), and form the "splice".

 

this will work provided the rope is made of natural material (otherwise the pva will not hold), and second: don't forget that there is no need to apply too much tension to your model's rigging. (Otherwise you run the risk of untying the 'splice').

 

 

 

Jan

[glbarlow]

Do you have a Quad Hands or something similar? It’s essential to have an “assistant” or third hand when rigging.  You mentioned the fishing lure knot, with the third hand you can strop or seize the block and the hook and do other the knots required to do a complete job of rigging. 
 

Click Here to see options for Quad Hands on Amazon, for me it’s an essential tool. 

I think you’re going to have to decide if model building is something you want to do. There are ways to do things that are done by lots of modelers, there are good and bad ways, simple and overly complex ones, but mostly just different ways to accomplish the same thing. Some posters get defensive thinking only their way is the right way, others just offer an opinion forgetting it is just their opinion and not gospel.  Bottom line is through all of that you need to find what works for you and practice it until you’re comfortable doing it. A first model is just that, a first model.

 

[Gregory]

1 hour ago, glbarlow said:

others just offer an opinion forgetting it is just their opinion and not gospel

Not to mention, " a picture is worth a thousand words "..

 

When people suggest something should be done a certain way, it doesn't mean much if they can't provide an adequate illustration of how it is accomplished, or at least a nice picture of the end product.

 

Several such pictures are posted in page one of this topic.

 

Those pictures can be saved and printed for future reference..

 

Search for " strop " or "stropping " in the forum, and you will get more information than you can deal with in a lifetime..

[Laggard]

Which would you use to seize a block to a mast?
 

Manila hemp

 

.012 black 

 

.021 black

 

The Manila hemp is almost silk like and just difficult to work with.  
 

Right now I’m waiting on a new mast.  I made the mistake of inserting it into a dremel so I could turn it easily.  The second I turned it on the mast violently snapped in two sending pieces flying.   Lucky to not lose an eye.  😬 😂 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Laggard

[Gregory]

11 minutes ago, Laggard said:

Which would you use to seize a block to a mast?
 

Manila hemp

 

.012 black 

 

.021 black

What is the size of the block?

[Laggard]

18 minutes ago, Gregory said:

What is the size of the block?

3.5 mm

[Gregory]

I'll Post an example in a little while..

[wefalck]

If you download this article I wrote in 1980, on the second page there is a sketch (no. 13 and 14) for how to make fake splices and how to tie in blocks: https://www.maritima-et-mechanika.org/maritime/tips/FALCK-SM-5-80.pdf

 

This was written at a time, when there was no Internet to ask questions, but one had some books on full-size practice and then deducted some useful practice for modelling.

 

 

[glbarlow]

I’m going to drop out of this conversation. Best of luck to all. 

[Laggard]

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

If you download this article I wrote in 1980, on the second page there is a sketch (no. 13 and 14) for how to make fake splices and how to tie in blocks: https://www.maritima-et-mechanika.org/maritime/tips/FALCK-SM-5-80.pdf

 

This was written at a time, when there was no Internet to ask questions, but one had some books on full-size practice and then deducted some useful practice for modelling.

 

 

I can do it.  Just was looking for some final advice on what line to use. 
 

But seriously, this conversation is done. It’s my first model and I’ll just wing it as best I can. If I have to use staples I will. Not a huge deal. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Laggard

[amateur]

Hi Laggard,

 

A last word on this discussion: you keep asking ever more detailed questions, people take time and effort to answer your questions , and you drop out of this discussion without saying ‘thanks’, and saying something that can be interpreted as ‘I don’t bother your answers and advice, I am going to do it my way.’

 

I don’t know how others feel about that, but I think it’s not very kind…..

Jan

[Laggard]

29 minutes ago, amateur said:

Hi Laggard,

 

A last word on this discussion: you keep asking ever more detailed questions, people take time and effort to answer your questions , and you drop out of this discussion without saying ‘thanks’, and saying something that can be interpreted as ‘I don’t bother your answers and advice, I am going to do it my way.’

 

I don’t know how others feel about that, but I think it’s not very kind…..

Jan

I said thanks several times.  I’ve read all advice provided and still don’t quite understand how to do it.   It was suggested to me here to not worry about the historical accuracy of the build and find what works for me.  So that is what I just decided to do and mentioned so in my final post. 

[wefalck]

I actually never understood the concept of a 'first' model, where one gets bored after a while and cuts corners. Either you toss this into the bin (with all the effort wasted) or it will be there as a constant reminder of not having done it right. When I built my first ship-model as an adult, which was semi-scratch), I had literally no source of advice, but went to the library and found books on how things were done in detail on real ships, I used this is guidance. And I tried to reproduce the bits and pieces as well as I could with the tools and materials that were available to me 40+ years ago. Today, one can get well-founded advice easily, access to tools and materials is to much easier now (though certain types of materials have disappeared from the market since), so that the need to 'cut corners' out of ignorance is greatly reduced. It's only one's lazyness and impatience to battle with ... and this is sad for those who genuinely want to help and provide the advice they wished they had in earlier times ...

[Gregory]

13 hours ago, wefalck said:

If you download this article I wrote in 1980, on the second page there is a sketch (no. 13 and 14) for how to make fake splices and how to tie in blocks: https://www.maritima-et-mechanika.org/maritime/tips/FALCK-SM-5-80.pdf

 

This was written at a time, when there was no Internet to ask questions, but one had some books on full-size practice and then deducted some useful practice for modelling.

 

 

Really nice technique..

 

I grabbed a snip for my reference and will post here..

 

 

 

Let me know if you would rather I not share, and i will delete the picture..

[wefalck]

It's OK, didn't have time to make an excerpt myself.

 

Most commercial 'rigging threads' I am aware off are glorified sewing threads and they do not separate very well into individual strands. This doesn't matter too much: with a sewing needle you stich just through them, which is good enough.

 

Once I am happy with the position, I dab the 'splice' in a bit of matt varnish and roll it between the fingers - this makes it look like the real thing.

Edited August 30, 2021 by wefalck

[Laggard]

11 hours ago, wefalck said:

I actually never understood the concept of a 'first' model, where one gets bored after a while and cuts corners. Either you toss this into the bin (with all the effort wasted) or it will be there as a constant reminder of not having done it right. When I built my first ship-model as an adult, which was semi-scratch), I had literally no source of advice, but went to the library and found books on how things were done in detail on real ships, I used this is guidance. And I tried to reproduce the bits and pieces as well as I could with the tools and materials that were available to me 40+ years ago. Today, one can get well-founded advice easily, access to tools and materials is to much easier now (though certain types of materials have disappeared from the market since), so that the need to 'cut corners' out of ignorance is greatly reduced. It's only one's lazyness and impatience to battle with ... and this is sad for those who genuinely want to help and provide the advice they wished they had in earlier times ...

Dude, I’m cutting corners on the block because I physically can’t seize a block that small the historically proper way.  I don’t know why.  Ask a doctor as I am not one.  
 

I have all the tools I need.  Clamps, third and fourth hands, a half dozen hemostats, magnifying glass, etc.  I simply cannot get my fingers to work with that small a line.  I’m happy you can. 
 

I managed to seize a block today.  Under magnification it looks accurate to me.  

[wefalck]

Well, when I wrote the above article, I had a minimal toolkit, just a pair of pointed tweezers and fine sewing needles. My smallest blocks were 2.5 mm long, if recall correctly.

 

You can fiddle a wire through the bore in the block and attach then the wire firmly to something on your worktable, e.g. a pin driven into it. In this way the block doesn't jump around. You then form the fake splice away from the block and pull it down to the block as close as you can. Secure the splice with a drop of varnish and cut the loose end as close as possible, then roll the splice between your fingers after having detached the block from the wire loop. No magic, just quiet patience.