Swivel guns

[tlevine]

What would be the height for a swivel gun above the deck?  Waist?  Chest?  Eye level?

[Louie da fly]

Hard to say, and it would depend on the period of the ship. What century? In the 15th century they began to have gun(!)wale-mounted swivels, but unfortunately the contemporary pictures aren't representative enough to show how they relate to the height of the people on board (people are routinely shown bigger than they are).

  

And try as I might, I haven't been able to find any contemporary picture from this period showing someone on board ship firing a swivel gun, or even in the same pic as one (except ones like the pic above where the proportions are obviously seriously wrong).

 

However, what we do have is what I believe are pretty reliable pics of ships with swivel guns mounted directly on the gunwale . . .

 

and others which show what I believe is a reasonably accurate idea of the size of people in relation to the ship . . .

 

 

This might be of use in working out the height of a swivel gun, at least in the 15th century, but I'm afraid it's not all that helpful.

 

Steven

 

 

[tlevine]

Thanks, Louie.  It would be the late 18th century, specifically for my Swallow build.  I made them last fall and when I installed them yesterday, they just seem too high up from the deck (five feet).

[amateur]

Does it help to browse the NMM_collection in Greenwich? Some of the models have the swivel posts installed.

Warship (1741); Sixth rate; Sloop; 24 guns | Royal Museums Greenwich (rmg.co.uk)

(at least, I think those six posts on the poop are swivel posts)

Or have a look at Chucks Winnie: Syren Ship Model Company|Boxwood ship model rigging blocks|Ship Model rigging rope |turned brass cannon| Chuck Passaro

 

Jan

Edited September 5, 2022 by amateur

[barkeater]

My Badger 1777 under finished scratch build shows how I installed them. The pictures might be helpful. They were made out of toothpicks and brass.

Richard

[tlevine]

Thanks, gentlemen.  Unfortunately, without knowing the height of the rails and swivel post, it is difficult to determine their elevation from photos.

[Lieste]

There are some gaillard perrier mounted on the Hermione Fregate de 12. I'm sure there are photographs somewhere in the huge number taken that include a crew member near one of these pieces.

[Chuck Seiler]

Toni,

    Somewhere I have a rood picture of one of the swivels on SD Maritime Museum's SURPRISE.  I cannot find it right now but will search for it tonight.  As I recall, the gun was/is at chest level.

[Chuck Seiler]

Found it. 

[Mark P]

Good Afternoon Toni;

 

As a backup check, I have looked at the height of the swivel-gun stocks on the Admiralty draught of Fly, a sloop of 14 guns. This very detailed draught, dated 1778, shows the swivel stocks ending at a height of 2'9" above the highest point of the quarterdeck planking. One must then add to this for the rounding of the deck beams, and for the metal fork in which the swivel-gun was mounted. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[bruce d]

Toni, 

Haven't found a rule to quote but these images below from NMM are pretty consistent. The swivels are above the rail but not so high that the crew would be impeded in reloading. As I understand it, and as is illustrated in these contemporary models and plans, the swivels most deadly use was in firing down into an attacker and the quick working of the guns depended on the crew being able to get on with it without acrobatics. Since they are so often found mounted outboard of or directly above the rail, they really couldn't be any higher.

So (at least the way I am going to mount mine after asking myself the same question) - the swivel guns will be at approximately shoulder height relative to the deck. 

 

Atalanta (1775); Warship; Sixth rate; sloop; 16 guns | Royal Museums Greenwich (rmg.co.uk)

Warship (1740); Sixth rate; Sloop; Brigantine; 12 guns | Royal Museums Greenwich (rmg.co.uk)

Fighting vessel; Bomb vessel | Royal Museums Greenwich (rmg.co.uk)

Warship; Sixth rate; 24 guns | Royal Museums Greenwich (rmg.co.uk)

Warship; Frigate; Amazon class; Fifth rate; 32 guns | Royal Museums Greenwich (rmg.co.uk)

Escorte (captured 1757) | Royal Museums Greenwich (rmg.co.uk)

Senegal (1760) | Royal Museums Greenwich (rmg.co.uk)

 

As a by-the-by, I believe there were also occasions when a swivel gun was jury-rigged to fire from a mast-head. I am so glad I didn't live in the 18th century.

[tlevine]

Thank you everyone.  I will locate the guns at chest height.  The top of the mounts is at 3 feet above deck.  Unfortunately, that will entail some serious surgery to the already-built mounts.

[Lieste]

The chandler is fixed into the top of the mounting timber - while it isn't proud 18" - it has some height of it's own.

[mtaylor]

One thing I found very helpful was to carve up a little guy of the appropriate size.   I used the art from a ANCRE plan and as I recall, he took me less than hour to make. His "staff" is 6 scale feet tall.  Not a great photo but it's the best I could find at this moment.

 

 

[CDR_Ret]

In the FWIW category, research suggests that the average male height in the 1600s and 1700s was about 66 inches. So assuming chest height is about 2/3 of that, or 44 inches, that would give a target value for the swivel gun mount height. 🤔

 

Terry

[jud]

I suspect there was no hard and fast rule on mounting height of swivel guns that was not related to location and intended target. If mounted aloft and sighting down the gun to a neighboring ship, close enough to justify shooting, knee high would be about right, If mounted on the bulwarks and the intended target was the upper works of you enemy then head high would work, allowing the gunner to squat to aim. If intended for a horizontal slugfest, then mount a Quaker and ambush your foe while their attention is on the dummy. Swivel guns are intended to be pointed and aimed quickly so mounting height is considered when placing them. An adjustable mounting for height would be nice, the 20MM Oerlikon was basically a Swivel gun and the mount permited the height of the gun trunnions to be varied easily and rapidly for any sight angle, to suit the convenience of the gunner. This is done by the column raising handwheel mounted on the pedestal head. 

[allanyed]

10 hours ago, jud said:

If mounted on the bulwarks

I have not been able to find a contemporary drawing that has a swivel gun mounted on a bulwark, so far.  All I can find are stout posts on which they are mounted including the Fly drawing that Mark references in his post above.    The drawing is available for free in high resolution on the Wiki Commons RMG site.   upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/FLY_1776_RMG_J7978.png    I inserted and enlarged to full scale in CAD and measured from the top of the beams at the bulwarks to the top of the mounting posts.  I don't have my books with me so do not know the thickness of the deck planks for the QD or FC.    Going aft to forward, the tops of the posts at the QD run from 42" to 44".  At the FC, they are 27" for the aft most and 29" for the forward most.  

Allan

 

 

[tlevine]

I ran into the same problem, Allan.  On my plans from the RMG, the tops of the swivel mounts are all the same distance from the top of the deck at the bulwark, 48".

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, tlevine said:

On my plans from the RMG, the tops of the swivel mounts are all the same distance from the top of the deck at the bulwark, 48".

Spot on if you are referring to Swallow.  Enlarging the Swallow 1779 drawing, the swivel gun posts all measured between 51" and 54" above the top of the beams at the bulwark.   This would be similar to your figure, that is between 48" and 51" above the top of the deck planks if the planking is 3" thick (Steel and the Shipbuilder's Repository scantlings for similar size vessels. )  

Allan