Best paint for wooden ship models

[Hsae]

I am building a whaleboat from the late 1800. 
I was wondering which paint would be best for wood?

 

So far I painted plastic models with acrylic or enamel with the brands you are easy getting, like Testors, Tamiya, Vallejo or AK.

And if I had to paint some wood I used only Wipe-On Poly.

But how do I paint a model, say from 1800 in the appropriate color?  I don’t have experiences with the Model Shipways paint, or other paints which are made especially for wooden models, so they say. But it there really a difference compared to the more common brands, like I mentioned above?

Since paint got quite expensive I don’t want to buy all kind of different brands. 
 

I would really appreciate any input.

 

Thanks, Hermann

[Bob Cleek]

Well, your in luck with a whaleboat, since they were pretty much only two colors, black and white. Sometimes the inboard was painted gray, but that's just black and white mixed together. (Some carried a brightly colored sheer strake for long-range identification from the mother ship, as well.) 

 

Any of the modeling paints would be fine. Seal the wood with clear ("white") shellac and then paint. Some use a sanding basecoat and then a finish top coat. The sanding base coat will permit a very fine finish which is required for the proper scale appearance. 

 

Review the painting section of the forum. It's full of good information on the subject.

 

[Hsae]

Bob thank you for your response.

 

I do have shellac, there is no problem with that. But can I spray enamel over it? I guess I can use Acrylic, or?

I better test it, before I screw up my model.

 

Thanks,

 

Hermann

[Bob Cleek]

1 hour ago, Hsae said:

Bob thank you for your response.

 

I do have shellac, there is no problem with that. But can I spray enamel over it? I guess I can use Acrylic, or?

I better test it, before I screw up my model.

 

Thanks,

 

Hermann

Yes, you can spray, or brush, enamel or acrylic paint over dried shellac. Apply the shellac first and let dry, then sand lightly to remove any imperfections. If you sand through the shellac coat, apply another coat of shellac. Sanding the dried shellac will remove any "fuzz" from softwood, (e.g. basswood) and yield a smooth surface for painting.

[Hsae]

Thanks Bob!

[JohnLea]

This Bob Cleek guy knows stuff.

[Hsae]

That’s why I ask here at the forum. 🙃

Here is a ton of knowledge and the best thing is, they are willing to share!

I really appreciate that.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Hsae

[Roger Pellett]

I’m not sure what special properties Model Shipways paints have that would make them particularly good for models.  Paints have three principal ingredients;   The pigment, the resin, and the vehicle. Paints may also have small additives to control selected properties such as surface tension, gloss etc.

 

The pigment is the color: generally a ground mineral powder.  The more finely ground the powder, the better the paint.

 

Pigments are suspended in the resin.  The resin is the liquid that undergoes a chemical reaction that causes the paint to harden around the suspended pigment.  There are two common resins; alkyd, often called oil or enamel, and acrylic.  There are other specialty paints that use other resins- Epoxy, Urethane, etc, that are not commonly used to paint models.

 

The vehicle, thins the uncured paint to allow it to be brushed or sprayed.  It usually does not take part in the chemical reaction of the resin as it quickly evaporates.  When paint is tacky, the vehicle has evaporated and the resin is curing.  Different resins are thinned with different compatible vehicles.

 

Paint is therefore not that complicated, marketing programs notwithstanding.  You want to buy a high quality paint with finely ground pigments that uses a resin that you are comfortable with.  Oil based paints are smelly and slow curing but I find them easier to apply with a brush.  Acrylics have less oder and cure faster.

 

Roger

[Hsae]

Thank you Roger for the detailed explanation.

 

[Bob Cleek]

3 hours ago, JohnLea said:

This Bob Cleek guy knows stuff.

Most of the stuff I know was learned from making mistakes!    

[Old Collingwood]

Just to add  my own to the Excellent  replies  here,   you could also try the Admiralty Acrylic range  of paints, they  come in a plastic bottle  with an easy  push back lid  that's attached,  they  are  made  especially  for  wood  but also  go down well  on plastics,   its a  very high quality  paint.

 

OC.

[allanyed]

9 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

Paints have three principal ingredients;   The pigment, the resin, and the vehicle.

That comment brought a pleasant flashback to my time in the seventies working for PPG coatings and resins division and the various grinding mills, mixing, and filling equipment we used.

Allan 

Edited February 3, 2023 by allanyed

[Hsae]

Thanks for all your input!

 

Hermann

[Mercator]

I use Vallejo game color (acrylic) mixed with wood sealer (acrylic). Both are fairly inexpensive for the type of boats that I build (Vanguard 1/64 fishing boats). Hand paint exclusively on wood models.

For plastic and resin models I use Tamiya paints.

[Hsae]

What brand do you use as wood sealer?

[grsjax]

19 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

not sure what special properties Model Shipways paints

None that I am aware of but my experience with them indicates that some of the criticisms you hear of them are not really justified.  Biggest issue I have with them is that they are not well mixed when you receive them and they need thinning even for brush application.  That said if you mix them well and add 10% water/isopropayl alcohol (90%) to the mix they work really well.  For spraying I use 40 or 50% thinning, sometimes more.

[GrandpaPhil]

I like Delta Ceramcoat acrylic paint for wood or card models.

Edited February 4, 2023 by GrandpaPhil

[Hsae]

Thank you for all the comments.

 

To me it looks like it is more personal preference what brand you are using, as long as the pigment / grain size is small enough.

There are many paint brands out there. For instance, I never heard about Delta Ceramcoat acrylics.

 

But having said that, I had at one time some paint mixed at Sherwin-Williams to match my Land-Rover’s (1/10) color and it sprayed very well. Disadvantage is, now I have 1/2 gal left overs. 😆 

 

Hermann

[East Ender]

Good luck Hsae and good morning, I'm new to the forum and I'm about to start my first model, Bluejackets Grand Banks Dory. I have the same dilemma as Hermann, transitioning from plastic models to wood and a paint question. I know I can purchase and probably will order the correct paints from Bluejacket, Model Shipways and the like, but my question is this: Has anyone ever used Windsor- Newton Artesian water soluble oils on wood? I'm also am artist; oil painting on canvas and recently tried these water soluble oils as they do mix with water. I've always used regular oils in the past.  I may try a test piece to check the result. I have many colors, Burnt Sienna, Yellow Ochre, grays ect. Would be great if I could use them. 

[Roger Pellett]

Water raises the grain of wood.  In practical terms, this means that a sanded surface gets a rough texture.  This does not mean that you cannot use water soluble paints.  Many acrylic paints are water soluble and are used to paint wooden models.  If the paint raises the grain light sanding followed by another coat will be required.  Or, you can first seal the wood with  primer that does not contain water.

 

Roger

[Jaager]

On 2/4/2023 at 6:31 AM, Hsae said:

some paint mixed at Sherwin-Williams to match my Land-Rover’s (1/10) color and it sprayed very well.

Theory =  full size paint does not need as fine a pigment grind and for reasons of cost probably does not.  At miniature scales, a close look probably resembles a gravel road.

 

1 hour ago, East Ender said:

Has anyone ever used Windsor- Newton Artesian water soluble oils on wood?

I am pretty sure that @Bob Cleek has been espousing the use of premier quality arts oils - both water based and organic solvent based - the stuff in tubes - as the whole of what is needed.  

Infinite dilution,  a flattening agent can be added, for oil base,  polymerizing oils can be added,  these also have a catalyst to speed polymerization.  I would think that even the smallest tubes would last much longer than a mini-bottle of pre-mixed model paints.

 

53 minutes ago, Roger Pellett said:

Water raises the grain of wood.

Two solutions:

a primer coat of 1:1 diluted shellac followed by a full strength coat would provide an ideal base - plus mask any of Nature's glitches in the wood.

(Not sure about silicon from lubricant mis-spread being where it shouldn't = fish eye.)

 

After the final pre-sanding - paint the wood with water  or  water with 10-20% white PVA - then sand again.  This gets the water caused swelling out of the way.

[East Ender]

Thank you for the information Roger and Jaager!  Another question, the 1:1 shellac, the white shellac I read about earlier in this topic, is it diluted with a quality low water content alcohol? Are there  particular brands you would recommend for the shellac and alcohol?

[Mercator]

Sorry HSAE missed your question on Friday (repainting the inside of the house, different paint!).

The wood sealer that I use is DECO ART multipurpose wood sealer, very inexpensive and works very well mixed with acrylic paint. I use Vallejo Game Color which seems to hand paint better.

[Jaager]

I believe back in the era when things were fast and loose - when diet pills contained live eggs from tapeworms -  What? they worked!

- shellac thinner was methanol - wood alcohol.  Now it is 95% ethanol -  with an emetic additive to make it tax free. 

Shellac has been listed as "cut".  One pound cut is 1 lb of flakes per gallon of alcohol.  

The amber version is saturated at 3-5 lb cut - I forget which.  I just read that Zinsser premixed is 3lb. 

The darker the color, the more wax.  The wax increases the solubility in alcohol.  I believe super blonde flakes saturate at about 1.5lb cut.

For a first coat - there is better penetration if the concentration is 50% saturated (1:1)  alcohol to dissolved shellac.

 

Until shellac is something that you are comfortable with - it is easier to use the pre-mixed.  Get a Qt. of shellac thinner too.

Amber if it is painted over or the natural wood wants "warming".

White if minimal effect on the existing color is desired.

 

For all practical purposes 95% ethanol is as water free as you can get.

Shellac thinner is less expensive.

 

Pharmco grain from the ABC store will work just as well (190 proof = 95%)  if you want to support state and Fed governments by paying taxes you don't need to pay.

If you come across a deal that seems too good to be true, there is probably a higher water concentration.

 

I have been wondering if moonshine would work.   I distilled ethanol long ago - the 95% comes out of the condenser as much smaller drops than water. 

But I am thinking that moonshine has been diluted or distilled with less care?  Doing the job that they do - already indicates that questionable ethics are in play -so dealing with a moonshiner is false economy.😉

 

43 minutes ago, East Ender said:

Are there  particular brands you would recommend for the shellac and alcohol?

 

Both, shellac and ethanol are natural products - brand is pretty much irrelevant.

"If you come across a deal that seems too good to be true, there is probably" something involved that you do not want.

 

For flakes -  right now I like the 1/4 lb bags from Lee Valley.  I am of the hope that the garnet flakes will have a pleasant effect on my Hard Maple - like adding 200 years to the look.

[Bob Cleek]

2 hours ago, East Ender said:

Has anyone ever used Windsor- Newton Artesian water soluble oils on wood? I'm also am artist; oil painting on canvas and recently tried these water soluble oils as they do mix with water. I've always used regular oils in the past.  I may try a test piece to check the result. I have many colors, Burnt Sienna, Yellow Ochre, grays ect. Would be great if I could use them.

I haven't specifically used Windsor-Newton Artesian water-soluble artists' oils at all. As I understand it, these are traditional oil paints using some form of treated linseed oil that is water soluble. This supposedly provides the advantage of avoiding the aroma of turpentine which is traditionally used as a solvent. I love the smell of turpentine in the morning... smells like... like victory! Other's mileage may vary, it seems. The use of water-based coatings on  the bare wood of models is not advised because water soaks into wood and raises the grain and "fuzz" to one degree or another depending upon the wood species and grain orientation. Multiple coats of water-based coatings can be applied and any resulting raised grain can be sanded fair, in which instance the first coat(s) serve as the sealer. Oil-based coatings will also benefit from a sealer applied first to the wood surface, but will not raise the wood grain.

 

Given Windsor-Newton's description of this product, I can't imagine any problem using it for painting wooden models. As you are an experienced oil painter, I need not go into detail about choosing between the various brands and types of tubed oils except to mention generally that one should choose a line of oil paint that is commensurate with the quality of the model and the personal standards of the modeler. As most of us hope that our models will last some time, color-fastness is probably the first criterion in choosing an oil paint. second in importance will be the amount and quality of pigment (the more finely ground, the better, pigment being the greatest determinant of a particular color's price,) and lastly consistency. For those who are unfamiliar with artists' oils and acrylics, there is a very wide range of quality between the various lines of each brand and you get what you pay for. Lower priced "student" oils are at the bottom end of the spectrum and high-priced "professional grade" artists' oils are at the top end. Internet research on brand and type ratings will be found beneficial. Learning to mix colors expands the amount of colors available from a limited amount of tubed colors and ship modeling has the advantage of requiring a very limited pallete of colors, generally black, white, burnt sienna, yellow, and red. There's no need to buy an expensive "starter set" of tubed paint. 

 

For those unfamiliar with tubed oil paints, suffice it to say that they are simply "really thick paint packaged in a toothpaste tube." You squeeze out a bit and then condition it to your desired purpose. Add solvent (usually turpintine) and/or linseed (or whatever oil is the carrier) to thin it and modify handling consistency. You might want to add a bit of acetone to oil paint or alcohol to acrylic paint (consistent with what is compatible with the paint) when airbrushing because these solvents will evaporate more quickly and speed "drying" time. (Sometimes a very small amount of Japan drier can also be used to speed drying, as can "flattening" additive to adjust the finish gloss to a more matte finish.)

 

There is nothing special about painting wood except that water based coatings will likely raise the grain and thus require sealing before use, or sanding after a first coat, that serving as a sealer.) Others have their own preferred sealers and the modeling paint companies are only too happy to offer expensive sealers to accommodate their customers. In fact, the best sealer for wood modeling is simply two- or three-pound-cut shellac. This can be bought in just about any paint or hardware store in pre-mixed cans. (Zinsser "Bullseye" is a common brand in the US.) Shellac is often referred to as "white" or clear shellac," or "orange shellac." The "orange" (running to dark brown as the number of coats increases) shellac is its natural color. The "white" or "clear" shellac has been bleached so it imparts no color to the surface. This is preferred for most modeling purposes. Shellac is also sold in "flake" form and is then diluted in denatured alcohol The "pound cut" refers to the amount of shellac flakes added to a gallon of alcohol and thus the dilution, and consistency, of the shellac, Shellac, being carried in alcohol, dries very quickly. Alcohol does not raise wood grain like water does. (Once soaked in and dried, it will permit sanding off the "fuzz" on softwoods like basswood to achieve a perfectly smooth surface necessary for accurate scale effect.) After the alcohol has been applied to the piece, the piece can be painted with any coating one wishes. In some instances, one will want to apply a base coat to ensure color uniformity, followed by the final top finish coats.

 

YouTube is full of instructional videos on the use of tubed oil paints generally and on miniatures specifically.  Check them out.

 

 

[Montaigne]

Another factor to consider is lightfastness: the pigments resistance to fading from exposure to light, in particular UV light. Without proper lightfastness, a model placed in a window can lose a lot of its color intensity in a matter of a few years. I’m a painter, so for me lightfastness is crucial when choosing brands of paint to work with. Irrespective of manufacturer, lightfastness also varies between pigments; black is the most stable and red usually fade the most because it absorbs the most UV light.

[East Ender]

What a wealth of information! Thanks to all of you for the very detailed explanations. I will follow all this advice and learn from it. Perhaps it would be best and safer for me at this stage to stick to the basics, order the correct colors of tried and true paints for my first model, but.... at the same time delve into some experimental testing on the side with my artists paints, both traditional and water soluble oils on scrap wood for my next build. So thanks again, I'm now much more comfortable going forward with this build. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by East Ender
spelling

[DaveBaxt]

On 2/3/2023 at 5:46 AM, Old Collingwood said:

Just to add  my own to the Excellent  replies  here,   you could also try the Admiralty Acrylic range  of paints, they  come in a plastic bottle  with an easy  push back lid  that's attached,  they  are  made  especially  for  wood  but also  go down well  on plastics,   its a  very high quality  paint.

 

OC.

I have only just contacted these guys to find out if they are ok for airbrushing and the answer was yes. Just add water for thinning as they are quite thick. As yet I have not tried these out with a airbrush but intend to do so in the near future. They have a good range of colours which I have been informed are replicated for a ships particular period but being a beginner I unable to confirm this. Anyone else who has used this paint for airbrushing I would be very interested to find out. Great thread by the way.

[Roger Pellett]

Gunstock makers “whisker” the carved stock before applying a finish.  This involves nothing more than wiping down with a wet cloth and letting the stock dry.  The raised grain is then sanded off with fine sandpaper.  The cycle is repeated until whiskers no longer appear.  The same principle could be applied with water based paints on a ship model hull.

 

Roger

[Bob Cleek]

11 minutes ago, Roger Pellett said:

Gunstock makers “whisker” the carved stock before applying a finish.  This involves nothing more than wiping down with a wet cloth and letting the stock dry.  The raised grain is then sanded off with fine sandpaper.  The cycle is repeated until whiskers no longer appear.  The same principle could be applied with water based paints on a ship model hull.

 

Roger

True that, Roger, but there's a lot of difference between wood species that will be encountered. A hardwood gun stock of walnut, for example, will not "whisker" much at all. On the other hand, a piece of soft basswood will "whisker" a lot over repeated wettings. Sealing any wood with shellac will harden the surface of the wood and subsequent sanding to remove "whiskers," "fuzz," or raised grain will then only need to be done once, rather than repeatedly until there's no more grain rising when the wood is wetted.