31 foot Longboat 1801 by allanyed - scale 1:96

[allanyed]

Another builder commented about the difficulty of building a small boat with details at this small scale, and I agree but I took it as a challenge.  It may never get finished or may not wind up looking very good, but I thought it would be a quick little fun project to attempt to see if I could do it.  I am sure there are a LOT of members that could accomplish the task, but a lot more that will share my pain as I move forward.  

 

I am starting with RMG plans ZAZ5814, dated May 1801.    There are a number of items about which I have had questions and that have been discussed here at MSW.

I have also put together scantlings based on what I could glean from the drawing and from the scantlings of circa 1800  given in W. E. May's The Boats of Men of War.  I also downloaded plan ZAZ 7322 for details on the rigging that will come later.    

Scantlings can be seen in the attached PDF.  If anyone wants the Excel version, please feel free to PM me.  I have included full size dimensions as well as dimensions at 1:96 in imperial and metric.

Scantlings (version 1).xlsb.pdf

 

 

I downloaded the plans and resized to 1:96 scale then drew up plug pieces below using the body plan. I printed these on label paper then attached them to wood that was planed to a thickness of 0.156", the distance from station to station.  The building board for the plug and some of the cut out plug pieces are in the photo below.

(NB: I put a station "I" on the board but it should be the letter "H")  The XAZ5814 actually show these to be cant frames

Allan

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by allanyed

[JacquesCousteau]

Looking forward to watching this build. Making a planked hull under 4 inches long, not to mention all the furnishings, sounds like a real challenge!

[Ferrus Manus]

I believe you will do much better than I did, owing to the fact that yours is made from wood and has actual plans, and your repertoire of tools and skills far eclipses mine. 

I challenge you to do better than I did, and I say that knowing full well that yours will turn out amazingly well. 

 

I greatly look forward to your progress and admire your will to try new things. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Ferrus Manus

[Ferrus Manus]

I would recommend using something like a manila folder or very thin cardboard for the planks, owing to the miniscule nature of the build. Wood planking would be either completely unachievable or completely out of scale. 

[allanyed]

 

3 hours ago, Ferrus Manus said:

I would recommend using something like a manila folder or very thin cardboard for the planks

Hi Iron Hand

The frames will be made of castello boxwood to the dimensions shown in the scantlings, ie: 0.029" square at the heads and slightly larger at the floors.  At this scale I will not be making them in multiple pieces, but rather one long piece for each frame.  The planking will HOPEFULLY be made of holly as it is easy to work with, is tight grained, and can be taken down to the requisite 0.012" thickness.  I will start with the plank thickness at closer to 0.018 to account for sanding once the planking is all in place.  These species have worked well for me in the past at 1:64 so I see no reason (so far 😀) not to use wood.  We shall see how well this works in the next few days.  In the photo below, the plug pieces were cut from some scrap pine that was planed to the required 0.156" thickness and sanded to the dimensions/shape of the inside of the frames and the first couple frames are temporarily set in place.  These were soaked in cold water for a couple hours and bent easily to wrap tightly against the plug.  The ends of each frame are anchored in holes in the base board. 

Allan

Edited October 11, 2023 by allanyed

[BANYAN]

Hi Allan, I hadn't noticed this build of yours; very nice work. on that plug.  I'll be interested to see how you progress with this one.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Roger Pellett]

Allan,

 

I’m looking forward to following this interesting project.  I recently completed a model of the boat on drawing ZAZ 7322 (photos below).

 

I have yet to find a date for this boat but I believe that it’s considerably older than the ZAZ 5814 model that you are building.  The rig is most interesting as unlike Syren’s Medway Longboat with it’s gaff mainsail, the SAZ 7322 model has what I would describe as a Shoulder of Mutton sail; very short gaff and loose footed main.  You will also note that the sail’s boom has a reverse taper. The end at the clew Is considerably heavier than the end attached to the mast.  This is logical in that as a loose footed sail the boom is in compression, except from the sheet attachment point outboard to the sheve that the clue line passes through.  This is under bending loads.  You will also note that the boat weighs in on the MSW mainsheet traveler controversy.   It passes Over the tiller! 😆

Edited October 12, 2023 by Roger Pellett

[Ferrus Manus]

I had no clue you could get any type of wood down to that thickness. The more you know! 

[druxey]

Even at scale thickness in 1:48 scale, wood planking is translucent. At 1:96 it would be virtually transparent! The suggestion of card might be a better option, unless you are painting the hull.

[Ferrus Manus]

4 minutes ago, Roger Pellett said:

MSW mainsheet traveler controversy.

On my build, i solved that issue by simply putting the main sheet forward (standing foot, btw) the tiller. This was easy because it wasn't a loose-footed gaff. 

[Ferrus Manus]

5 minutes ago, druxey said:

Even at scale thickness in 1:48 scale, wood planking is translucent. At 1:96 it would be virtually transparent! The suggestion of card might be a better option, unless you are painting the hull.

Agreed. Card would also be much easier to work and have less of a chance of snapping while being bent. Either way, the planking must be painted. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Ferrus Manus

[Roger Pellett]

Having sailed many small boats and capsized a few, the controversy is only on MSW.  No competent sailor would attempt to sail a boat with the tiller fouled by the mainsheet!

 

Roger

[Ferrus Manus]

This is why I put the function of the tiller as having precedence over the location of the mainsheet in my boat. I have yet to do the rudder or tiller on the build. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Ferrus Manus

[allanyed]

Thanks everyone, your input is invaluable.  

I will give a try with holly and Druxey is quite right about the translucence.    The frames will show through if held up to the light, but I will give it a try then clear coat which helps, and if necessary paint (arrrgghhh) the hull.   If that fails, no harm in re framing and giving card stock a try.  The thickness of poster board that I have is 0.014 ((the equivalent of 1.34 inches), close to the dimensions in the scantlings of 0.012 (1.125 inches).  IF it works I hope no one will notice a difference of two thousandths actual thickness.  Just did some checking and the average human eye can detect about 0.1mm or about four thousandths.  The fun or dashed hope is about to start.

Allan 

[allanyed]

45 minutes ago, Ferrus Manus said:

I had no clue you could get any type of wood down to that thickness. The more you know! 

The Byrnes thickness sander is an incredible piece of machinery.

Allan

[druxey]

Ferrus manus: At such thickness - thinness, really - bending wood is the least of one's problems!

[allanyed]

In case anyone is interested, the drawing below was the one I made and used for preparing the plug pieces.  I can PM as a PDF, JPG, PNG, DXF or DWG for anyone interested in printing it at home.  I included a scale on the drawing to check against a printed copy.  A PDF, DWG, or DXF will be high res and clear.

Allan

Edited October 12, 2023 by allanyed

[Ferrus Manus]

20 hours ago, druxey said:

bending wood is the least of one's problems!

You'd think it would easily snap if it were that thin. Often times i discredit the strength of wood. 

[allanyed]

Full frames are in place with keel, stem, stern post and deadwood also in place.  Needs a bit of cleaning up that the camera clearly shows. Next up are the half frames.

Allan

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by allanyed

[allanyed]

I have never been able to find contemporary information on the breadth of the hull bottom planking on ships' boats.  I did find one drawing of a 23 foot long boat that May has in the Boats of Men of War book.  It is from the Venus 1758 but the drawing,  ID CHN0132 is not on display on the RMG Collections site. Scaling it shows planks 9.5 inches and 8.5 inches in breadth at the landing strake and upper strake and the upper most bottom strake at about 7.5 inches.  Scantlings in The Boats of Men of War give the breadth of the upper strake and landing strake but just the thickness of the bottom strakes.   I would appreciate it if anyone has any more details they can share.

Allan

+

[druxey]

The width of the rabbet at the keel on the drawing may give a clue in absence of other information. Typically planking was ⅝" to 1½" thick, depending on the size of boat. 'Bottom' in May applies to all the bottom planks. Your 31' 0" longboat should have 1⅛" planks.

[allanyed]

5 hours ago, druxey said:

Your 31' 0" longboat should have 1⅛" planks.

Thanks Druxey, I don't think the thickness will be a huge problem and 1 1/8" is indeed the thickness given in the scantlings in post #1. My concern was more about the breadth.  I measure the overall area as we do with ship planking to determine the number of strakes with each breadth being equal below the landing strake.   In this case they will be about 7.5" wide.  Of course with any variation in the measured distance  from boat to boat and the decided number of strakes, the breadth of the planks will vary.  Perhaps this is why that dimension is not given in the scantlings.  I prefer spiling, but these planks are soft using holly and easy to shape if soaked then shaped and hit with the hot air gun.  This scale is ridiculous compared to 1:48 or even 1:64, but the challenge is half the fun.   Time to get going on the planking, and holding my breath.............  As I read this it sounds confusing so a picture for anyone else that I may have confused in addition to myself

 

Allan

Edited October 13, 2023 by allanyed

[druxey]

Half the scale, half the fun? 7½" to 8" wide planks seems about right. I might recommend lining out the planking first, Allan.

[Ferrus Manus]

half the scale, twice the fun! 

[allanyed]

Planking was an interesting endeavor at this scale.  The scariest part was when it was time to remove the boat from the plug.  Fortunately nothing stuck and it popped off cleanly.   I was having trouble putting dots of PVA on the frames before putting a plank in place.  If any were even a little too big, it would run off the frame and touch the plug.  This would have resulted in the entire boat being glued to the plug.  I removed the first strake to be sure and there would have been a mess. I hate using CA, but I went to a CA gel that was very easy to control and it worked. 

 

The third photo shows the keelson in place. 

 

As mentioned above, the thin planking is somewhat translucent.  This can be seen in the last photo when the boat was held up to the light.   Next time I need to be a bit more careful on the spacing of the frames as they vary slightly in a couple cases. They started out perfectly as the guide holes in the base are correct, but when gluing the first planks a couple frames shifted slightly.  In the past when building a ship's boat I put spacers between the frames that were shallower than the frames to keep them evenly spaced, but at this scale it was problematic (and I suppose I got lazy.)  I know  some folks avoid this problem as they cut grooves in the plug, but I have had no  luck using this method when it was time to remove the planked hull from the plug.  

 

Allan

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by allanyed

[Knocklouder]

Wow that is thin, how did it not stick to the plug?  🤔

[allanyed]

16 minutes ago, Knocklouder said:

Wow that is thin, how did it not stick to the plug? 

The outboard face of the frames stand proud of the plug nearly 0.03 inches so I just had to be careful that the glue was only on the frame and did not get onto the plug when setting a plank in place.  The planking went surprisingly fast with little difficulty.  

Allan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by allanyed

[Ferrus Manus]

I can't believe you already finished the planking! 

[druxey]

One can wax the plug or cover it in Saran wrap to prevent sticking. I use a small brush to apply PVA accurately where needed. Anyway, well done, Allan!

[BANYAN]

That came out a treat Allan, nice work.

 

cheers

 

Pat