Cutty Sark by Richard Dunn - 1/40 scale - scratch built semi-kit prototype

[Richard Dunn]

I hope this is in the right section, sorry if its not guys.

I am wanting to know if anyone out there is interested in trialling a semi kit I am currently developing for a client.
The  kit is a 1/40 scale Cutty Sark but unlike all the kits out there this is based on measurements taken during the restoration of the ship which I was involved in recording the structure.  The lines are taken from a scan of the hull to exacting precision and the accuracy is carried forward into every part of the model..

For those who don't know what a scan is, its the process of lasers placed around the object in a set grid formation which bounce rays off the surface these points are stored as points in 3d space and are then connected by a surface in CAD software to form the surface, certain surface types respond better than others but the accuracy of the data is precise.

Measuring the hull in this manner has not been done before 2011 and as a result plans that exist have all derived from calculated guessing and visual study of the shape, old preliminary midship plans (Rennie) which were not built to and sometimes based on similar ships, all that is fine if the data is not available ,which is was not so some did a good job of getting the form

Below  can be seen the resulting mesh overlaid over the model, it was used to deign her current display system suspending her above the dock,. I should mention I have compared all available plans of her against this scan and not a single one is correct, some are better than others but all have failed in one area, the sheerline, some are too flat aft, some re too flat forward, some have the rise of floor totally wrong but as you can see we have this info now, these are significant errors to 2-3 ft in full size which is amazing to me.
I should point out as well that the sagging of her hull structure and dropping of her bilge as a result has been allowed for as it was not over the whole surface but only in certain areas that were not shored up.

Anyway these images will show how close the model is to the laser scanned surface now.

I should add I am also able to provide a lines plan now if anyone just wants the proper lines for a model and take it from there.
It has been in research for 10 years and it's taken me some time to find the time to do this.
The kit will consist of all the wood and plywood parts needed to build the hull and planking of hull and decks including the panel work of the deckhouses, it is based on the woodget era while she was in the wool trade.
I was drawing this up in 2010-2012  from measurements of her structure while she was just an iron skeleton, this enabled the unseen parts of the ship to be measured like never before, although a lot of this is not relevant to model like the deadwoods etc it did make it possible to get every detail correct.
I do not expect the interest in this to be large, if any at all, as many kits exist already albeit out of scale and incorrect but if that's ok with you then great but I like to do things right as a record of history.
The hull is framed using the actual ships web frame positions and the planking is to scale and correct as per ship with even the butt positions the same as the original.
I will go into more detail later and expect to be cutting the first set in the next few days from .4, 1mm, 2mm, 4mm birch high quality plywood, the 4mm ply is 8ply, and very stable.
The backbone and pre-shaped planking is Cherry and Anigre for decking.

The bulwark plates I will cut from brass, at least at this stage I plan to.

Below are some images of the 3d model of the kit showing some of the structure.
Hull length is about 1600mm and 280mm beam. the beam is the biggest limitation if yards set square but at this scale it can still be displayed in a house with 8ft roof

I am doing this for a client for a personal model but if anyone is interested in an accurate model let me know.

An example of the details and what was measured without structure in the way, here is the top of the stempost under the bowsprit, hundreds of these were taken and drawn into plans

If you have any questions please PM me, I can do trials after I assemble a version myself and fix any fit issues and could do it for cost of materials only, weight should be low, less than 6kg

Lines from scan of hull, the orange lines are the scan sections compared to the faired red sections used

C Jordan got the midship pretty spot on in 1922

Planking

 Framing

Interior of coach house being built for what's seen through skylight.
 

 

 

 

 

[ccoyle]

1/40 -- whoa!

[Richard Dunn]

Starting to layout frames for cutting also made allowance for brass lugs for mainstay and Main Topmast stay to be screwed into deck framing for max strength.
The shape of the lugs is evident in this photo.

Laying out the panelling on the topgallant rail is fun as they are not equal sizes, I realise most would make it even but in reality some panels are 40% longer than the majority, glad I got these measured.

 

1mm brass lugs can be seen here forward of foremast

Edited October 30, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

Re the figurehead, I contacted Andy Peters who carved the new figurehead to see if he would se able to scan his work but due to legal reasons and him wanting an NDA to be signed it's become too hard, I have hired one of my work colleagues at the Game studio I work at to sculpt her based off the Linton sketch,  if anyone has seen the new K1 trailer you can see the sort of work we do and the characters so the figurehead should be awesome, if you do look its very gory so beware.
It can then be resin printed.

[Keith_W]

Pretty amazing that you are doing this. 1/40 is a bit too large for me, I do not have anywhere in the house that would fit such a model. I would be really interested in seeing progress pics of the model as she evolves, though. If you wish to monetize your work, perhaps you could discuss selling your plans to a model kit manufacturer. Since your files are digital, it should not be too difficult to offer the kit at a more "reasonable" scale, say 1/72. 

[Richard Dunn]

33 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

Pretty amazing that you are doing this. 1/40 is a bit too large for me, I do not have anywhere in the house that would fit such a model. I would be really interested in seeing progress pics of the model as she evolves, though. If you wish to monetize your work, perhaps you could discuss selling your plans to a model kit manufacturer. Since your files are digital, it should not be too difficult to offer the kit at a more "reasonable" scale, say 1/72. 

Plans yes, kit no, I don't go smaller than 1/48 the 1/40 was a specific request. 
The person this is for has foyer in his house with a 3.6m ceiling height, the height is not really the issue though its the beam of the mainyard at 600mm that gets intrusive really, the overall length is 2.1m approx the height is about 1.3m I think so even on a table it would fit most rooms....just but yeah still big.

 

here is a drawing I just did within an 8ft ceiling, normal room height and a person, it's not THAT big really.

and that's sitting on a table 750mm height with room to spare

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

I will not be building this further than framing and planking, I have my 1/35 Wahine beast to do...now thats a big model

[druxey]

A fascinating and ambitious project, Richard! Your comments on the inaccuracy of previous existing plans are interesting. We make assumptions....

[Richard Dunn]

10 hours ago, druxey said:

A fascinating and ambitious project, Richard! Your comments on the inaccuracy of previous existing plans are interesting. We make assumptions....

I do want to say I am not wanting to upset anyone or offend anybody with that comment, but it is true sadly.
I could do a whole post on which plans have what issues and back it up with photographic evidence on every count but that might make me a target for trolls.
I will say one thing though, the last set of plan I purchased were from a Dutch company and the work in them is absolutely spectacular, they are well presented and beautifully drawn...... BUT..... the guy who did them has tried to rationalise his decision to base his lines off the the Rennie midship plan, which was a preliminary plan and not "as built" , he has included all other body plans overlaid with that plan and pointed out why all the others are wrong compared to the Rennie plan, for those of you who are following this the Rennie midship has a drastic rise of floor that does not exist in the ship, photos of the ships bottom and frames prove this and he has taken a shot along the ships bottom from the bilge and interpreted the natural fall away and twist of the garboard as concavity in the rise of floor, its sad because he has done a beautiful set of plans but the drawings are not in  any way accurate, the sheer line is low, and the counter is not at the right height either and of course the hull lines in general are way off due to midship being wrong.

deck ties and diagonals are not in the right place either, by a long shot. I was most annoyed when I got theme.
The only midship that is right is the C Jordan one as shown above, you can't argue with surveyed scan data. its as good as shrinking the ship and placing it in the computer

The official Plans from the Cutty Sark are also approximate even by there own admission, they are based on recollections and previous plans.
What has upset me the most is I have owned C Nepean Longridges book most of my life and viewed it as the bible but after working on the ship and measuring it first hand it's far from it, I am perplexed how some of the measurements are so far out, I can only assume some of the things he measured have been replaced to different scantlings from when she was afloat as a training ship.
In saying  all of this how many modellers really care about absolute accuracy? and just want to have fun, I personally could not go and spend over $1000 on a kit that has out of scale planking, wrong lines and even the waterline in the wrong place, the AL kit is the worst, it's not on in my opinion.

I am going to do some plans based off the scan and you will be able to see for yourselves. I am just sectioning the scan, no interpretation is required, it's absolute
 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

I am going to post a piece of research data I was given  during the restoration, anyone building a model will find this invaluable but it needs to be cleaned up, it is the size and type of rigging of all the rigging in the ship, I think its  standing and running rigging but very interesting.
Enjoy.

G Wicksteed Particulars of Rigging 1981.pdf

 

Also plans exist of all the spars and yards that were drawn in the 50's here is the mainmast for example showing sizes and riveted construction.

and all spars  are recorded like this as well.

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[druxey]

Pre-scan days were always a greater or lesser degree of 'best guess'. I know that you are not slagging those who went before you - they did what they could (for the most part). We are fortunate to live in a time of 3D scanning. I was fortunate enough to have access to an historic prototype's scans. This resulted in two of us recovering the 'shipwright's secrets' from the late 1600's. I'm sure that there are many other discoveries on hull design waiting to be made as well. And you are finding some!

[GrandpaPhil]

This is going to be awesome!

Edited October 31, 2023 by GrandpaPhil

[Keith_W]

5 hours ago, Richard Dunn said:

I do want to say I am not wanting to upset anyone or offend anybody with that comment, but it is true sadly.
I could do a whole post on which plans have what issues and back it up with photographic evidence on every count but that might make me a target for trolls.

 

Not at all, Richard. Most people on this site are concerned about accuracy. I think you will see that on any modeller's forum, e.g. I have seen discussions on tank and plane kits which were criticized for being inaccurate. If you look over the build logs, particularly by some of the more ambitious modellers, a lot of effort goes into research and correcting kit deficiencies. And don't forget that MSW is part of the Nautical Research Guild, whose mission is ... nautical research. So any feedback you provide about inaccuracy of texts and kits is welcome. In fact, more than welcome ... I for one would LOVE to see it. It would be a very valuable resource for anybody who wants to build a Cutty Sark. This is why I suggested you sell plans or discuss developing a kit with a manufacturer. It would be the ONLY kit I am aware of which has measurements laser scanned from the actual ship. 

 

If trolls were to attack you for anything true that you have said, I am sure many members would defend you. Not to mention the mods. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Keith_W

[Richard Dunn]

I carved a 1/40 scale Cutty Sark hull on the CNC last night so will post images of me holding it soon to show size

[Richard Dunn]

I got a message about the counter planking , here is the planking next to the model and the nibbed sheer plank.

[Richard Dunn]

Here is how the planking strakes and butt positions were tracked, this is just a screenshot of the excel doc.

the little rectangles are the butt plates.

All in the name of absolute accuracy....nuts

 

[Richard Dunn]

In regards to Anigre as a wood for teak decking, I have posted this somewhere else but since it is what I am doing for his I will post the image here to.
I know my woods and have been a furniture builder most of my life and still build guitars.
Anigre is not a high ranked wood but it is fine grained and nice to use, it does have an unpleasent smell..it smells like **** frankly.. but it goes quickly and becomes musty in smell, it cuts well and sands really nicely, it is fine grain with no large pores, about the same as Cherry.
The issue is availability, if you can get it get as much as you can afford because it may not be around much longer due to bans on logging.
I did some searching for it in the US and it seems easier to get for you.

It is also readily available as veneer, be careful of this as its normally fiddleback with waves in it, its beautiful wood but no good on a deck.
Here it is in veneer form on a cabinet I made 20 years ago note the figure which you don't want

as you can see the colours match pretty well, the greyer stuff is good for older teak, for scale those planks are about 6 inches wide, the front one 4

Note the fiddleback figure in the venner! you don't want this if you buy Anigre veneer.
By the way this was toned to this colour, it's not the natural colour.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

As promised here is the hull at 1/40 for size reference,  I carved this one on CNC a while ago, I forgot I had it.

[Keith_W]

Your house must be massive for you to have something like that lying around somewhere and forgetting that you had it  I have a typical Melbourne home ... expensive and small. I would definitely notice something like that in my house! 

[Richard Dunn]

14 hours ago, Keith_W said:

Your house must be massive for you to have something like that lying around somewhere and forgetting that you had it  I have a typical Melbourne home ... expensive and small. I would definitely notice something like that in my house! 

It was behind a bed in a spare bedroom, when I wrote the comment It had slipped my mind I had already done one of these, as bread and butter but because its CNC carved you just walk away for the day and let it go largely.
My house is not massive, 470sqm but I do have a good sized workshop, most people have seen it in my Wahine build in here, and I have an awesome wife who when we built this house  let me convert the media area adjacent to the garage into a soundproof machinery room where I have my CNC, thicknesser, jointer, lathe and bandsaw.
So that is now accessed from the garage via soundproof doors and the wall inside blocked up into a niche to display guitars in.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

I just got a response from the Glasgow University as I had read in a Frank Carr book they had the original plans, or at least some of them that were given to them in the early 1900,s
Here is the response
 

Thanks for your email on the Cutty Sark.

 

The Cutty Sark, which was launched in 1869, was worked upon by two companies: Scott & Linton and (after that company entered financial difficulties) William Denny & Brothers. While we have no Scott & Linton records in our collection, we do have materials from William Denny & Brothers. Unfortunately, after having gone through the items, I cannot see any mention or drawings of the Cutty Sark. A search of the ship’s name on our Special Collections search also brings up no results.

 

Good luck with your research.

 

Kind regards,

 

Archives & Special Collections (ASC)

University of Glasgow Library,

Edited November 1, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Keith_W]

5 hours ago, Richard Dunn said:

My house is not massive, 470sqm 

 

My entire house is 1/3 the size of yours. I don't know what you think is "massive" if you think 470sqm is small (that's 5000 sq ft for Americans). 

[Richard Dunn]

not sure why I thought it was 470sqm it's not, I checked the plans.
it's 290sqm including workshop, Barkly 29 from Metricon

Edited November 2, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Richard Dunn]

Could anybody send me any old Model shipway plans?, I just want to see how much is provided and how much they expect you to provide.

Flying Fish in particular, from what I see online it  is one f the better brands with so so plans and instructions.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Keith_W]

If you go to the first page of my build log for the Royal William (link in my signature), you can see miniature reproductions of the ship's plans. Euromodel provides some of the best plans in the business. 

[Richard Dunn]

Thanks Keith.
A footnote to my comments about Anigre above, its very hard on tools and is quite a hard wood, much harder that Obechi or Pear and it blunts tools, I have just sawn all my planking stock ready to go through the mini saw and the bandsaw blade is dull as.

The 9.84mm Axial structure stock is machined ready for CNC.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[Jaager]

You may wish to verify the identity of the wood that you are calling Anigre.

My only purpose for questioning this,  is if you order a resupply from a different vendor,  what is supplied could be an unpleasant surprise.

What leads me to question your identification is:

The Wood Database gives Anigre a Janka rating of 990

Pear 1660

Obeche  440

Basswood  410

Lime  700

Castelo  1810

 

For scratch builds using POF - I think the economical and practical choice is to use a domestic species with scale appropriate grain and closed pores.

The only local lumber there - based on the US based Wood Database appears to be  Tasmanian Myrtle ( Myrtle Beech, Silver Beech ) Janka 1310.

Of course any immigrant fruitwood species is likely to be ideal. 

[Richard Dunn]

24 minutes ago, Jaager said:

You may wish to verify the identity of the wood that you are calling Anigre.

I do not need to verify it, I  have been using it all my life in various ways, I thought I made that pretty clear.
If you have used it and don't like it then don't use it but It's a very good representation for aged teak, that's it.
The pores are virtually invisible to the eye

Edited November 5, 2023 by Richard Dunn

[scrubbyj427]

Looks like a very promising project, well done Richard. Will you offer it in 1:48?

[allanyed]

14 hours ago, Richard Dunn said:

I do not need to verify it, I  have been using it all my life in various ways, I thought I made that pretty clear.

 Think I will stay away from volunteering to do a test run for fear of being chastised or otherwise lambasted for making a suggestion.😁

 

Allan

Edited November 5, 2023 by allanyed