Purchasing Old Wood Kits

[Intasiabox]

There's a local guy selling some of his ship kits at a decent price. I'm looking at the AL Bounty that he has for sale as I had started one years ago but it got destroyed in a move and I wouldn't mind giving it another go. I've read a few times that buying older kits can be a gamble as the wood gets too dried out and splits and cracks, making it unusable. The kit is 20+ years old. Is there any truth to this or is it just antidotal? Thanks 

[GrandpaPhil]

The best bet is to look in the kit if it is local to make the best determination about the condition of the materials in the kit.

 

Bounty has a bluff bow (a lot of curvature) so be sure to check on the condition of the planking, unless you are planning on replacing the planking anyway.

 

Also, check for warping in the sheet wood, although that can be corrected.

[Jaager]

2 hours ago, Intasiabox said:

the wood gets too dried out and splits and cracks, making it unusable.

I have no doubt that this is a frequent occurrence with the older POB kits from some companies.

I do question the explanation.  Wood is fairly to significantly old before it is even harvested.

Once felled, the wood will then have its original water content reduced to ambient humidity (seasoning).

How long this takes involves a number of factors - thickness being a major one.  From then on wood will

change its concentration of water to be in balance with the humidity of its surrounding air.

 

I propose that the major problem with these older kits lies with the choice of wood species selected for inclusion in the kit.

From day one with these kits it is GIGO as far as how the wood behaves.  Using glue, finishing agents, paint, etc.  will alter how it responds over time.

 

However you factor this out,  our dominant investment by far is: TIME.

We never get it back. 

We will never be compensated at any hourly rate commensurate with that of professionals doing similar skill level jobs.

Quality wood does not fight you at ever step.  Its presentation is more appropriate.

 

Your time would be better spent building quality kits.  The intangible feeling is more pleasurable.

If you are determined to proceed with this,  your experience will be more rewarding if you were to replace every wooden part with a quality wood.  Use the original wood as patterns where this is worth doing.  If the cost of the second hand kit does not make this economical to do, you would be spending too much.

[Gregory]

4 hours ago, Intasiabox said:

The kit is 20+ years old.

Have you been able to inspect the kit?

 

A few years ago, ModelExpo unloaded a lot of AL Bountys at a very low price because a lot of the wood was moldy.  Might be a good reason to avoid it if mold is present.

Otherwise, because of the reasons Jaager mentions, old, dry wood is not necessarily a problem.

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  How 'decent' is the price? (assuming the kit is complete and unbuilt)  At only around 20 years old, I don't think the wood will be bad. I have a couple 50 year old kits and a 30 year old kit - and the wood is still good.  The price for a new AL Bounty kit now ranges between $420 - $460 ... but a new Bounty from OcCre is about $100 less.  I haven't seen these kits, so I can't say if the AL Bounty is worth a hundred dollars more - so looking for reviews and builds of each on the MSW site can likely answer that for you. 

 

  You didn't say if the seller quoted you a price, and if so, what it was.  But I wouldn't want to pay over $300 (if new-in -box).  If his price is higher, then my counter would be $300 based on the price comparisons above - after all the current new version will be 'up to date' with new materials, so if the price is too close to new, then why not buy new?

 

  There may be another alternative, and that is the OcCre Beagle - another famous 'ship of discovery'.  That kit is $200 or more less than the AL Bounty - a great price point for a new builder, and there are several builds on MSW to peruse ... a recent build does show a decent approach to detailing the bow and stern (perhaps weak points in the kit building 'out of the box') - as well as other good tips to make an attractive model.  And it is always good to keep an eye on Ebay, as unbuilt kits can be had there at decent 'buy now' prices.

 

 

 

[Bob Cleek]

Yep, what Jaager said. Twenty years old isn't as old as I had in mind when I started reading this thread. I was thinking more like maybe fifty or sixty years old, back to the old Model Shipways "yellow box" kits. Still and all, unless you are prepared to do a complete build from scratch, using nothing but the old kit plans (which are easy to come by without buying the kit,) and the price for the plans is not too dear or the plans not too inaccurate, old kits are almost certain to disappoint a modeler today. There has been a tremendous increase in the quality and sophistication of ship model kits in recent times.  Even the difference between kits sold just twenty years ago (and which may have been designed twenty or thirty years before that!) and today's CAD-designed, and CNC-manufactured laser cut models is much the same as comparing the Academy Award winning quality of Ray Harryhausen's "stop-motion" model animation movie special effects of fifty years ago with the computer-generated imagery common in today's movies. 

 

The problem isn't just the quality of the wood. Even today's lower-quality kits are full of poor-quality wood. The older kits are nowhere near as well designed for ease of assembly, nor are their instructions, such as they may be in any event, anywhere near the quality of today's state-of-the-art kits. The fittings should be much better in modern kits. Older model kits frequently used lead-based cast parts which are prone to corrosion and turning to dust before your eyes in a few years. Older kits were notorious for period-inappropriate and/or out of scale fittings, as well and this is a problem that continues in lower-quality kits today. The old kit rigging blocks and thread will nearly always be so far beneath current expectations of quality and accuracy of appearance as to mandate their complete replacement. This isn't to say that a competent modeler can't turn out a rather nice model from an old kit, taking into account their ability to upgrade the kit from scratch as they go along, but at the end of the day, any modeler is going to have a much more pleasurable experience and a much better looking result assembling one of the higher-end American- or British-made kits which have been designed and produced within the last several years.

 

As Jaager sagely observed, it's all about the investment in time. Even the cheaper cost of an old kit considered, I'd say anybody who is going to spend any money on a model ship kit will find both their money and their time better spent on a modern kit. In any event, do be sure to check the forum's model kit database for reliable reviews of any kit you might consider acquiring. REVIEWS: Model kits - Model Ship World™

Edited December 10, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[allanyed]

7 hours ago, Intasiabox said:

I'm looking at the AL Bounty that he has for sale as I had started one years ago but it got destroyed in a move and I wouldn't mind giving it another go.

As this is only your second kit, the suggestions above about getting a high quality kit are spot on.   Maybe try a kit or two that will teach proper build techniques including planking. The 3 model beginner series from Model Shipways or the Syren Medway longboat kit along with spending time studying the tutorials here at MSW in the articles database will make your journey a pleasant one.

Allan

[Intasiabox]

Thank-you everyone for your replies! 

2 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

  How 'decent' is the price? (assuming the kit is complete and unbuilt)  At only around 20 years old, I don't think the wood will be bad. I have a couple 50 year old kits and a 30 year old kit - and the wood is still good.  The price for a new AL Bounty kit now ranges between $420 - $460 ... but a new Bounty from OcCre is about $100 less.  I haven't seen these kits, so I can't say if the AL Bounty is worth a hundred dollars more - so looking for reviews and builds of each on the MSW site can likely answer that for you. 

 

  You didn't say if the seller quoted you a price, and if so, what it was.  But I wouldn't want to pay over $300 (if new-in -box).  If his price is higher, then my counter would be $300 based on the price comparisons above - after all the current new version will be 'up to date' with new materials, so if the price is too close to new, then why not buy new?

 

  There may be another alternative, and that is the OcCre Beagle - another famous 'ship of discovery'.  That kit is $200 or more less than the AL Bounty - a great price point for a new builder, and there are several builds on MSW to peruse ... a recent build does show a decent approach to detailing the bow and stern (perhaps weak points in the kit building 'out of the box') - as well as other good tips to make an attractive model.  And it is always good to keep an eye on Ebay, as unbuilt kits can be had there at decent 'buy now' prices.

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply. I'm up here in Canada and what the seller is asking is $250 CAD. I haven't seen the kit in person as of yet but the seller says it's brand new. My previous kit had decent quality wood in it with a few odd choices for components like the solid metal stern side windows. I like the idea of the open interior as I think it adds more interest. The Beagle looks like a good kit as well, I'll have to see what it costs in Canada. Everything is way up and shipping from the US has more than doubled in the last couple years.

 

[Intasiabox]

Thank you for all of the replies. I'll have to check around for a newer kit to see if anything appeals to me and see if I can have a look at the wood of the old Bounty kit.

 

[Dr PR]

While "wood" might not change much with time, some plywood will. I have scraps left over from kits in '60s and '70s (50-60 years old) and some of the plywood has become unlaminated, or the glue has deteriorated enough that you can separate the layers with your fingers.

 

This really isn't a problem in the finished kit build because the plywood is glued to lots of other pieces, and is inside the finished model. But for an unfinished kit having the plywood disintegrate while you are trying to build it would be very annoying.

 

I have some unbuilt kits from the '80s and '90s (30-40 years) and the plywood is still good. The fittings are much better than the parts from the older kits. But the blocks still leave a lot to be desired.

 

I can't say anything about the newer kits because I am into scratch building now.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Dr PR

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  For $250 on the AL Bounty,  I'd GO for it without quibbling.  It likely is a 'grade or two' higher kit than the OcCre, in terms of fittings, etc.

[Intasiabox]

On 12/11/2023 at 7:11 AM, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

  For $250 on the AL Bounty,  I'd GO for it without quibbling.  It likely is a 'grade or two' higher kit than the OcCre, in terms of fittings, etc.

I ended up getting the kit. The strip wood was still sealed in bags and none of the containers had ever been opened, over all it looked brand new and in perfect condition. Of all the parts the rudder was missing, it didn't look like it got cut or broken out but rather got missed at the factory. For the $300 it saved me I can easily find a piece of wood and cut it out on the scroll saw. I just started a MS Mayflower a little while ago so I'm going to plug away at that for now and just keep this in my stash until the temptation gets to much for me. 

[Gregory]

I think we have a few AL Bounty  logs, so you shoud be in good company.

 

The high resolution admiralty droughts are available at Wiki.  I'll see if I can get you a link if someone doesn't beat me to it...

[allanyed]

6 hours ago, Gregory said:

The high resolution admiralty droughts are available at Wiki.

I Googled Wiki Commons Bounty and three plans popped up so can be saved in low, medium and high res.  Thanks for the lead Gregory!

 Allan

[Gregory]

Here is a link.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Ship_plans_of_the_Royal_Museums_Greenwich&fileuntil=Bristol+(1775)+RMG+J3860.jpg#/media/File:Bounty_(ex-'Bethia')_RMG_D3970_2.jpg

 

You can click through three more drawings.

[Intasiabox]

8 hours ago, Gregory said:

Here is a link.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Ship_plans_of_the_Royal_Museums_Greenwich&fileuntil=Bristol+(1775)+RMG+J3860.jpg#/media/File:Bounty_(ex-'Bethia')_RMG_D3970_2.jpg

 

You can click through three more drawings.

This is great! Thanks for the link!

[Thunder]

Hi, i have a thing for buying old kits, if you check out my Speedy build this was a kit from the early 70's. It was actually the best strip wood I have worked with so far. The bulkheads were awful, but not due to bad wood, they were poorly cut.

 

On the other hand i have many new kits. Caldercraft's Chatham's wood was excellent, Caldercraft's Pickle was awful. They replaced the deck planking but the hull planking was brittle and did not hold an edge. To be fair to them, their advice was not to store in a central heated home and have an open source of water in the room for humidity if room is heated. Not sure yet if this helps but had no issues so far with kits since putting an open water bottle in my store.

 

Of the old kits that i thought the planking was awful, I have looked in the new versions and found not much better. Therefore agree, the choice of wood species is the main issue.

 

 

 

 

[Capt. Kelso]

Over the past five years I purchased 3 old Marine Model kits and one Bluejacket kit. Aside from the expected aging of the plans, the Hulls were in good shape and I have not noticed any deterioration of the fittings. However, the common theme with all of them was the quality of wood strips, decking, and sheet wood. In every kit the wood was dried out and brittle. The dowels looked OK. So, I tossed the bad stuff, didn't even add it to my scrape collection, and ordered new wood. 

 

 

[Srodbro]

Just my 2cents worth, and for another angle on old wood:

 

Several years ago I got a MS Dapper Tom, solid hull kit on eBay that was old, as near as I can tell from late ‘60s, maybe earlier ( the instructions were on one 8 1/2x11 sheet). I believe the hull blank was southern yellow pine; the color and grain was much different than more recent versions of this kit from MS, and working with it was a dream. (The cast metal fittings were another story: flaky white and crumbly). 
 

I’ve made other old “ yellow box” MS kits, and agree the wood planks and sheet can be tricky to work, but, I really liked that old solid hull wood. 

[Thunder]

Perhaps we should take into account one or two critical factors. Where you live, where kits have come from and where stored. If you consider i have not been able to cut the lawns since September due to it being wet then you could imagine that the atmosphere is damp and wood unlikely to dry out.