HMS Sphinx 1775 by rvchima - Vanguard Models - 1:64 - 20 Gun Sixth Rate Frigate

[Thukydides]

1 hour ago, rvchima said:

😬 Yikes! I was afraid that other changes would show up in six years. Since the coppered hull is much more obvious than gun barrels to the casual observer (like me), I think I will copper the hull and ignore a few years of historical inaccuracy. But thank you kindly for the information.

Alternatively you could portray her as one of her sister ships.

 

I believe Daphne, Galatea, Ariadne launched in 1776 and vestal in 1777 were coppered at launch. I know for sure Perseus and Unicorn built by contract in 1776 were.

 

Also I believe you can buy carronades from Vanguard which if you wanted to add wouldn’t be very hard, especially if you didn’t bother to build up the bulwarks. If you did this you would want to use the early sliding bed ones.

 

At the end of the day most people looking won't know anyways 😄.

Edited February 25 by Thukydides

[wvdhee]

I don't think building up the bulwarks at the quarter deck will be that hard, thing that'd worry my is the decorations. Can't leave them where they are imho.

[rvchima]

Just to make sure that I understand, around 1782 Sphinx had 6 12-pounder carronades added to her quarterdeck, and possibly 2 more to the forecastle, in addition to the 20 9-pounder carriage guns on the gun deck. Is that correct?

[Thukydides]

1 hour ago, rvchima said:

Just to make sure that I understand, around 1782 Sphinx had 6 12-pounder carronades added to her quarterdeck, and possibly 2 more to the forecastle, in addition to the 20 9-pounder carriage guns on the gun deck. Is that correct?

Yes, the official establishment rating for them was to have 8 12pdr carronades, two on the forecastle and 6 on the quarterdeck.

 

Lavery in his appendices has a list from 22 July 1782 showing the ships which had been supplied with carronades (nmm mid/9/2). Sphinx is on this list and is only listed having the 6 on the quarterdeck.

 

If you search sphinx on rmg they have a planking expansion taken in 1808 before she was broken up. This shows sphinx having built up bulwarks on both the forecastle and quarterdeck. Now sphinx was last paid off in 1799 so in all likelihood this is what she looked like then.

 

So the question is do you believe the 1782 list and if so when do you assume the extra carronades were added.

 

To complicate matters there is another list from 1794 showing all carronade armed ships and this time sphinx is not on the list though her sister ships are.

 

Basically there are no easy answers on this one. As you could probably make a credible case for either 6 or 8 I would say do whichever you like better.

[wvdhee]

If I may quote from "Winfield, Rif. British Warships in the Age of Sail, 1714–1792: Design, Construction, Careers and Fates . Pen & Sword Books. Kindle Edition. " (if not, please remove) which says about the Sphinx class:

 

"  Guns: UD 20 x 9pdrs; QD (from 1794) 4 x 12pdr carronades; Fc (from 1794) 2 x 12pdr carronades. Daphne and Ariadne were re-established in early 1793 with 2 x 4pdrs on QD and 2 x 4pdrs on Fc in lieu of carronades, and re-rated as 24-gun ships "

 

Coppering was done in 1781 btw.

[Thukydides]

2 hours ago, wvdhee said:

If I may quote from "Winfield, Rif. British Warships in the Age of Sail, 1714–1792: Design, Construction, Careers and Fates . Pen & Sword Books. Kindle Edition. " (if not, please remove) which says about the Sphinx class:

 

"  Guns: UD 20 x 9pdrs; QD (from 1794) 4 x 12pdr carronades; Fc (from 1794) 2 x 12pdr carronades. Daphne and Ariadne were re-established in early 1793 with 2 x 4pdrs on QD and 2 x 4pdrs on Fc in lieu of carronades, and re-rated as 24-gun ships "

 

Coppering was done in 1781 btw.

Much of what Winfield says is helpful, but I would not rely on Winfield other than as an outline or starting point for research, I have found a number of instances with regard to the Sphinx class where what he says is contradicted by primary sources. If you are really interested I could give you more detail via PM, but I don’t want to bog down @rvchima’s log anymore than I already have.

Edited February 28 by Thukydides

[allanyed]

On 2/25/2024 at 11:29 AM, rvchima said:

Spoiler Alert - I am about to copper the hull. The Sphinx was coppered in 1781. Would the copper go under, over, or around the iron reinforcement plates? Same question for the rudder hinges.

FWIW  Bellona coppering.  https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66299  Copper is over the rudder hardware.   

[rvchima]

An Almost Brilliant Method for Coppering

In the last few months since I ordered my model this product has popped up on eBay. It is standard copper foil for stained glass with plate patterns for model ships stamped on it. It is available in 1:48, 1:75, and 1:96 scale, 500 pieces to a roll. There are now over 30 vendors, all in China, selling what appears to be identical products. I ordered two rolls at 1:75 scale at the end of November. They were delivered about three weeks later. I just used them up on the Sphinx, ran a bit short, and just ordered another roll. I also ordered a second roll at 1:48 scale to cap the keel and rudder post.

The plates were nicely spaced for the first few feet, and I thought I could cover entire rows without cutting the strips.  Then the spacing became irregular, with small gaps between the plates. I decided that I could live with that. Then very long gaps started to appear in the roll, and I had to cut individual plates.

It's easy to cut the foil with scissors but tedious to remove the plastic backing. A much easier technique is to cut a length of foil about 18" long, attach the end to the hull, and tear the foil against a razor blade held after the next plate. Then repeat. I coppered the rest of the hull in this manner, basically with individual plates.

I wondered if I had been cheated of plates, so when I opened the second roll I measured the length and counted the plates - 32 feet, 509 plates as advertised. The 1:75 plates are 18 mm x 6 mm, almost exactly 1 cm^2. They stick very well and look good. I do regret leaving the blank gaps near the keel. Live and learn.

 

The product would be perfect if the plates were spaced without gaps so that you could lay down entire rows without cutting (at least until the curvature got too great.) It would be nice if some US vendors carried it.

 

I have about an inch left to cover on each side, plus the keel, the rudder, and a band around the water line. I will weather the copper with vinegar and salt when it is all applied.

 

[rvchima]

On 2/27/2024 at 5:47 PM, Thukydides said:

Lavery in his appendices has a list from 22 July 1782 showing the ships which had been supplied with carronades (nmm mid/9/2). Sphinx is on this list and is only listed having the 6 on the quarterdeck.

 

If you search sphinx on rmg they have a planking expansion taken in 1808 before she was broken up. This shows sphinx having built up bulwarks on both the forecastle and quarterdeck. Now sphinx was last paid off in 1799 so in all likelihood this is what she looked like then.

I will admit to complete ignorance on this.

Who is Lavery?

If I search for Sphinx on https://www.rmg.co.uk  there are zero results. Is there a separate site for research?

[ccoyle]

1 hour ago, rvchima said:

Who is Lavery?

 

That would be Brian Lavery.

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=books+by+brian+lavery

[Thukydides]

1 hour ago, rvchima said:

I will admit to complete ignorance on this.

Who is Lavery?

If I search for Sphinx on https://www.rmg.co.uk  there are zero results. Is there a separate site for research?

Sorry I should have been more clear.

 

You probably searched the website not the collections. See below for a link to my sphinx search:

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/search/sphinx

 

The plan I was refering to was this one:

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-83709

 

@ccoyle is correct, I was referring to Brian Lavery and his book called the arming and fitting of english ships of war which is one of the better reference books out there for the fittings on english warships of the period. The NMM MID/9/2 is in reference to the primary source he quotes, the record number at the National Maritime Museum Archives.

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/archive/rmgc-object-511162

Edited February 29 by Thukydides

[rvchima]

Thank you for all the clarifications, and especially for the link to the RMG collections site. I have browsed RMG many times and never stumbled on the best part! And now I'll have to buy several of Brian Lavery's books, even if it's too late for the Sphinx.

[allanyed]

13 hours ago, rvchima said:

The product would be perfect if the plates were spaced without gaps

Are these the gaps you mention?

Thanks

Allan

[rvchima]

Yes, those are the gaps. Big mistake leaving them there. I cut them out further up the hull.

[rvchima]

Side Trim Completed

The upper sides of the hull are mostly blue with splashes of red. The gun ports are red inside. This all required a lot of masking. I started to mask off each gun port with 4 strips of tape but realized that I could put a large piece over each port and cut out the centers.

After painting, a number of extremely delicate trim strips were attached. I stained them all with Watco natural oil stain on the top only. The bow pieces were soaked in water and pre-bent. The manual says to glue them with PVA and lots of clamps. I did exactly that, but as soon as I removed the clamps half of the pieces fell right off. It's tempting to blame the oil stain, but I was very careful to leave the wood bare on both sides of the joint. Maybe the PVA is soaking in and drying too quickly? Anyway, I cleaned off the dried PVA and reglued everything with CA. It's not going anywhere now.

 

Did I mention that I finished the quarter galleries a few days ago? There are a lot of pieces in there that required a lot of trial and error fitting.

Just checking that everything fits.

[rvchima]

Minor Problem with the Rudder

After assembling the rudder I realized that the top with the tiller would not fit into the hole in the hull. The manual shows the top of the rudder post ending a bit lower, at the juncture between the planking and stern piece, so I cut about 1/4" off of the rudder post and everything fits now. I don't know why the rudder post was too high - everything else fit together perfectly.

 

I ran out of copper foil and had to order more from China, so it will be 3 weeks before I can complete the rudder.

 

[rvchima]

Channels, Knees, and Bow Trim

The channels are all attached with multiple brass pins. The laser markings show exactly where to put those pins. There are 26 knees to cut, sand, and paint, so it all took awhile.

Fore channels. The stove is temporary for now.

Main channels

Mizzen channels

I put some blue on the bow and added the bow grating and some trim. I have a little more work to do up front, then on to the stern.

 

[rvchima]

Stern Details

One advantage to having a fixed base is that you can do this:

All the details on the stern are pretty intimidating, but you just jump in and start attaching parts.

Speaking of attaching parts, I have been using canopy glue to hold the PE parts in place. Canopy glue is what RC modelers use to attach their canopies. It looks like plain white glue but it has an aggressive tack, dries clear, and is strong enough to hold a canopy on a fast RC model. It's also what @ccoyle uses to built card models.

 

I use 3M double-sided tape to hold parts to scrap sticks for painting, and also attached to a small stick to hold parts for placement on the model.

Edited March 10 by rvchima
Fixed images

[rvchima]

External Filigree Complete, 189 Hours, 87 days

 

All the external photo-etched filigree took up most of a sheet of PE, so I masked off what wasn't supposed to be gold and painted the rest in place. That was the only way to keep track of everything. Sorry about the blurry image.

The manual recommends attaching the parts with Pledge Future acrylic floor wax. Paint the area first, let it dry, put the filigree in place, then run more polish underneath to hold the part in place. Future is no longer available but the plastic modeling sites recommend Holloway Quick Shine. I got some and tried it on the first piece. It worked, but it was hard to hold the piece in place and the polish left shiny brush marks everywhere. So that didn't work well for me. Does anyone want a quart of floor polish?

 

I ended up cutting the filigree into manageable sections, holding each piece with my double-sided tape sticks (see previous post,) and using a glue looper to wet the back with thin CA. Then I held the piece in place for a few seconds and it was done. In a few places on the starboard side my gun ports were too close to the upper rails and I had to omit some filigree. It took about 10 hours to do all the filigree.

 

[wvdhee]

Love it 😃

[rvchima]

Chain Gang

The chains comprise a zillion PE parts that have to be darkened somehow. The manual suggests paint  but I blackened the entire sheet using Novacan Black Patina for Solder. One of my other hobbies is stained glass and I use this product to darken the solder. I set the PE sheet in a plastic tray, brushed on a little patina liquid, rinsed, patted dry, and sprayed with Lemon Pledge. The blakening can rub off here and there, but not back to shiny brass so it leaves a rustic appearance. The bit where the parts attached to the sheet can be touched up with a black marker.

The rings for the deadeyes must be expanded quite a bit for the deadeyes to fit. I butchered a few trying to open them with pliers, but found another way. I drilled holes in a scrap of wood slightly larger than the ID of the rings. 13/64" works well for the large deadeyes, 11/64" for the small. I placed the ring over the hole, and used a center punch to open the ring symmetrically. One tap with a small hammer and the deadeyes open right up. Drop the deadeye in, then use needle nosed pliers to tighten the rings back up.

 

UPDATE - I've found that I don't need the drilled wood at all. I can push the rings over the center punch by hand easily.

10 chains done, 42 more or less to go.

Edited March 17 by rvchima
Minor update

[rvchima]

26 Chains for the Port Side

Some assembly required.

[wvdhee]

6 minutes ago, rvchima said:

26 Chains for the Port Side

Some assembly required.

It's therapeutical 😉

[rvchima]

Chains are Done, on to the Interior - Temporarily

One of the first tasks on the interior is to place 6 eye bolts around each gun port, 120 in all. As Walter says,

On 3/17/2024 at 5:28 PM, wvdhee said:

It's therapeutical 😉

My curved hemostat was perfect for inserting the tiny eye bolts.

Four more bolts with tiny rings go in the floor, and a wooden ring surrounds the mizzen mast. I was getting excited about working on the cabins, but today my extra copper foil finally arrived from China. So back to the hull and rudder.

[rvchima]

My Copper Won't Turn Green!

I finished coppering the hull and rudder, and was ready to age it. In 2013 I used kitchen vinegar and salt on my Syren and it looks great. Today I made up some samples of my copper foil on wood to experiment with. I tried

• 6%   acetic acid kitchen vinegar with salt
• 20% weed killer vinegar with salt
• 20% vinegar with Miracle Grow
• ammonia with salt
• ammonia with Miracle Grow
• lightly sanding or rubbing the foil with steel wool first

Nothing had any effect at all on my samples. They are just as shiny as before, and I am stumped! Does anyone have other suggestions for ageing the copper foil?

 

I just discovered that Novacan Black Patina for Solder blackens the foil almost immediately. That's not the aged green that I was looking for but it's a start.

Edited March 21 by rvchima
additional information

[Thukydides]

Have you tried cleaning the foil with isopropyl or acetone?

 

If all else fails you could go for a painted aged look. To be honest if I was going to do aged copper that is probably the way I would go. You have a lot more control over where you add the tarnish.

 

There was one poster on here at one point who discussed using urine to great effect. You can find his discussion of it here.

[rvchima]

Now the Copper is Green!

I experimented with high-test vinegar and ammonia, salt and Miracle grow, cleaning the foil with alcohol and, lacquer thinner. (I did not try peeing on my ship.) Nothing had much of an effect until I tried the Novacan black patina that I use for stained glass and to darken the photo etched parts. It made the foil look like a tarnished penny, dark brown, almost black. I wanted green so I took a chance on a large bottle of Jax Green patina from Amazon. It didn't do much by itself and it tended to rub off. But over top of the Novacan black - wow! The patina seemed durable but I air-brushed several coats of acrylic floor wax over it just in case.

 

Here is a photo of all the samples I tried. No point in identifying the losers, but the Novacan + Jax + acrylic is at bottom right.

Here's a shot of the chemicals.

Novacan black starts to darken immediately and unevenly, but I brushed it continuously with a stiff 1" paint brush until it evened out (15-20 minutes per side.) I rinsed the hull with a sponge and water.

Jax green patina paints on like water, one wet coat, and turns green as it dries. I let it dry overnight.

Halloway Quick Shine is an acrylic floor wax that plastic modelers use for a clear coat. I masked above the water line and applied three light coats with an a air brush.

I doubt if I used more than 1/2 ounce of anything.

Before

After

There were gaps between the stamped plates on the copper tape that I neglected to remove towards the bottom of the hull. They are pretty well camouflaged now.

The green patina is not at all what I was planning on - it's even better.

I built the cabin walls while I was waiting for chemistry experiments to react.

Now to attach the rudder.

Edited March 28 by rvchima

[schooner]

I've seen a lot of "greening" ideas here on MSW but this looks like the best yet, looks great!!

[mugje]

Great effect! Well done

 

[rvchima]

Thanks everyone! Now I know how NASA faked the Magellan radar map of the surface of Venus.

Ha ha, only joking. I'm retired from NASA and we never fake anything.