Byrnes tablesaw compares with Proxxon FET tablesaw

[bridgman]

The wobble blade  method of cutting dados has been pretty much abandon by full sized woodworkers for all of the above objections.

It's a cheap  method compared to the preferred method  stacked blades to obtain the desired width, which is more accurate and results in a  better finish

of the dado. The stacked blades have a smaller diameter, fewer teeth a larger gullets for better material removal.

MicroMarks supplying accessories for their "doll house saws".

Bridgman {bellow zero} Bob

  

[Gregory]

The Dado effect for the Proxxon saw is a separate issue from the discussion of the sled. as well as a separate issue of  Byrnes vs Proxxon.

 

You would manage your insert just as you would for different width blades..  The warping washers are just another option to get a wider cut vs stacking blades or using wider blades.

I can't even say it is something I would use, but I don't know why it wouldn't serve it's purpose if it is what you want to accomplish with one of these doll house saws..

Edited January 20 by Gregory

[Roger Pellett]

It would appear that this thing is right up there with the Loom a Line.  

Edited January 20 by Roger Pellett

[kgstakes]

Tear out to me is one of two things.

 

 Lack of support at the end of a cut.

or

 not fine enough blade to make the cross cut.

 

 Take a router for instance, there is are two ways you can route the end grain of a board.

1) use a back up the piece with a scrap board so no tear out.

2) route end grain first then route the sides (with grain) last.

 

 In routing I always start on the end grain then with the grain then other end grain and finish with the grain.  In doing this as you route around your board you are cutting out any tear out from the previous cut.

 

 With a table saw cutting end grain or cross grain, (take plywood for instance) you want to cut with a fine blade to get you the best cut.  Same goes for lumber, either slow way down to minimize tear it out cross cut with a fine blade. (Even then slow down towards the end of the cut).

 

Hope that clears up some questions about tear out on wood.

[Gregory]

Thanks for the explanation..  I really wasn't understanding from an earlier post what a zero clearance  insert had to do with tear out.

[kgstakes]

When dado blades are used (stack blades) you get a more even square dado to the face of the wood.  With a wobble blade dado it’s not a true square cut with the surface of the wood.

 

I wish I had my wobble blade for my big table saw so I could show you what I mean but for miniatures, micro mark’s wobble blade would be so small that you probably wouldn’t notice any gap in the joint.

 

 The name of the blade “wobble” is misleading.  Everything is tight on the arbor.  What you are doing is adjusting the “tilt” of the blade on the arbor.  The arbor is still at a 90 degrees to the table it’s just the blade is tilted with the washers.  The washers have an angle on them for the amount of the dado you want to make.

 

 Hope I explained that correctly for everyone.

Edited January 20 by kgstakes

[kgstakes]

I’ll also add something here about tear out on “lumber” .

 

 If you know you need a piece say 2” wide by 4” long.  Instead of ripping the piece to width first do this.

 

 Cross cut to 4” long then rip to 2” wide.

 The side that has the tear out, rip that part off.

 

 Now you have a board that is cut to size and no tear out.

 

 When I said 2”x4” I’m assuming you’re cutting on your mini table saw. But actual size 2x4 not scale.  If scale 2”x4” use a chopper or slicer by ultamation.😀😀

 

Edited January 20 by kgstakes

[kgstakes]

We’ve all been using the words sliding table on a table saw and a sled for the table saw.  
 

example of a true sliding table saw

 

 

This is a true sled on a table saw

 

 

hope this shows the difference.  I use the names interchangeably but shouldn’t.  Sorry for any confusion on my part.

 

 Wish I had that sliding table saw in my shop!!😀😀

Edited January 20 by kgstakes

[kgstakes]

Someone mentioned that a stack dado set is a smaller diameter, this is not true.

 

 If you have a 10” table saw (takes 10” blades) you can get 10” stack dado set for it.

 

 The reason you don’t see them much is you don’t need that big a blade to make the dado.

 

 My table saw table takes 10” blades but I decided to purchase an 8” set. But the 10” sets and even 12” sets are out there mostly for commercial use but you can find them.

 

 

Diameter:10", Tooth:40T,Kerf:0.812''

[Archi]

Everything said is, of course, wonderful. But I remember that the Proxxon and its clone MicroLux® Mini Tilt Arbor Table Saw have a little problem: the saw blade and the guide fence are not too parallel.

[kgstakes]

You say it’s not a true parallel, I beg to differ.  Unless you’re looking for something down to the thousandths on an inch, you’re probably right.

 

 But explain to me how I can get these cuts (inside pieces) to fit if things are not parallel on a proxxon saw??

 

 

oh and this is the size of the box

 

 

 

Edited January 20 by kgstakes

[kgstakes]

One last thing about these saws (I think we’ve gone off course slightly a few times).  Both saws are good for model making.  One may be better than the other.  I’ve had great success with the proxxon (my scale roll top desk was built entirely with the proxxon table saw (see picture).  All with mortise and tenon joinery.

 

 

 If you like the Byrnes saw great, if you like the Proxxon saw great.  I just picked the best one for my needs. Y’all picked the best one for your needs.

 

If you know how to use the saw you purchased and can great results, that’s really all that matters. Who really cares what machine you have, heck you may have a home made saw that you get great results from and that’s great.

 

i just started this thread to see what others have seen or compared these two saws like I did before chosing one to purchase.  I think we’ve beat this dead horse enough let’s start something new or start a new title and continue with the “accessories” that we all have for the table saws.  That would be nice to see and share with each other. (If it hasn’t already).

 

 

 

[Archi]

Good photos !

Living in Ukraine more than 12 years ago, I used Proxon Table Saw FKS/E from Germany. Yes, with this saw there was no problem with parallelism, well, almost.
Then I started using its clone MicroLux® Mini Tilt Arbor Table Saw. It was because of the saw blade and the guide fence are not too parallel (and not only with my exemplar, a friend has the same problem) that I had to buy Byrnes tablesaw.

But something bad happened: my wife lifted my Byrnes Table Saw right behind the fence🥵. And I discovered the already skewed the saw fence😖.
Now I will try to reinstall / readjust the Table Saw Fence.

Edited January 20 by Archi

[No Idea]

14 hours ago, Gregory said:

Thanks for the explanation..  I really wasn't understanding from an earlier post what a zero clearance  insert had to do with tear out.

On a small scale a zero clearance insert gives the wood support all of the way up to the edge of the blade.  This reduces tear out as the wood is fully supported but also reduces chip removal which can cause heat. 
Whilst a fine tooth blade will also reduce tear out it will also cause issues with chip removal and heat too. It’s a trade off that experience and practical hands on work resolves. 
I believe that there is no definitive answer but my best results are with a 4” 64 tooth blade running through a zero clearance insert.  Other users find different results. 

[Archi]

If anyone is interested in how I dealt with the problem with the MicroLux® Table Saw:

The problem of non-parallelism of the saw blade and guide grooves for Miter gage remains unsolvable. As a result, it is very difficult to use Rip Taper Gage and Sliding Table on the MicroLux® Table Saw.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mtaylor]

Hmm... interesting discussion.    I have the Micromark saw that's now probably 15 years old. I did "calibrate" the fence early on, for lack of better word as it didn't sit exactly square to the blade.   A bit of tweeking the fence clamps took care of that.

 

I still double check squareness by setting the fence into place and tightening the front first and the then the back I can ensure that it's "square to the blade" and then tighten the rear one.  For this, I have made some "precut" tools using my laser in various widths for most of the sizes I need.

 

I use homemade zero clearance inserts probably 90% of the time and the opening for blade is ever so slightly larger than the width of the blade so there's no friction on the insert and thus, no heat generated by insert to blade contact.   I also drill holes in the insert to aid in dust removal using the my large shop vac attached the saw.   

 

And finally for cutting grooves, I blade stack.  I use one when I can but otherwise I just stack enough blades together to get the width I need for cut.   I have some extra screws of various lengths for those times when my "stack" is too big for the factory screw.  

 

It all seems to work pretty well for me but as always, you mileage may vary.

[kgstakes]

I don't know what the older Proxxon tablesaws had for a "clamping devise" for the fence but as of a few years ago this is the way they have it now and it keeps the fence in line.

 

 

You tighten the small knob and then tighten the larger one and seems to keep it straight and parallel.  On the right side of the scale, there is a knob that you can turn to micro adjust the fence.  Which helps in getting a very fine cut.

 

What ever you own, use it, enjoy it, and happy building everyone !!!

[Jaager]

Post #47 photo:

What I see:

A sliding block on the front.  The block has two tightening screws to fix it on the horizontal scale on the front face.

I know that it is almost impossible to set a sliding block on a scale exactly where it is wanted if there is a single screw - especially one with a lever arm.  The act of tightening it down is a turning action that slightly moves the unit in the direction of the turn.  I am thinking that the small screw is to be used first to sort of freeze the unit by being touch tight.  Then the lever can be cranked down without it moving its housing.

 

The troubling second part is that the actual fence is fixed to the sliding block by a single screw.  It is a door hinge.  The angle of the fence to the blade is easy to adjust - just loosen the Allen head screw.  A problem is that I see no second point to stop the fence from swinging when the lateral force of the wood between the blade and the fence is stronger than what the Allen head bolt is applying.  

That right angle beam needs to extend beyond the back edge of the table.  That overhang needs a bolt that fixes it to a backside sliding unit that has no play in how it slides along its track.

 

The machine in the photo does not look like the blade can cut stock that is very thick.  This does not appear to be a machine that can do more than thin stock ripping.  Maybe it gets by because it does not cut stock thick enough to produce a serious later force. 

A Jim saw can rip stock that is close to one inch thick.  Now, I would not use it for ripping seriously thick stock - because I have a 14" bandsaw  - a machine that is designed to resaw - but I suspect that I am in a small minority that has an alternate way to resaw.

 

The Proxxon looks to be fairly substantial.  Much better than the 4" Dremel POS or an old Jarmac, never mind the Harbor Freight junk,  but it pales when compared to a Jim saw.  But, the probability is that a Jim saw is no longer an option - at least for a while  and may never again be one.   

[kgstakes]

Jaagar,

 

All I can say is the Proxxon works for the work I want to do with it.  It will cut 3/4" thick oak (crosscut).  I have no need to rip any thing thicker than 1/4" thick.  I have a 10" tablesaw that I can take larger boards and cut it down close to the sizes I need and then use the proxxon for cutting pieces for modeling.  

 

I have other tools to do the hard work of milling large stock down for modeling.  Tablesaw, Bandsaw, Sanders, Planers, etc. so I don't need to put the wear and tear on a much smaller motor than is necessary.   I want to keep all my machines running for a very long time with out undo stress on small motors that can't handle that type of work day in day out.

 

Yes, Brynes saw has a larger motor than the Proxxon, but why do work on a small machine that is basically max it out when you could purchase even a cheap full size tablesaw to do the heavy work for you.

 

Again, I get great results, and I'm not here to say which is best, I was just comparing both machines,  As you all probably did before you made a purchase.  Micro Mark tablesaw may be a clone, the I highly doubt you can put the Proxxon in the same class as the Micro Mark.  A lot of Miniature Machines that are copied.  But none are as good as the original.

 

a few years back I seen a table saw that way way higher grade than any other miniature saw.  If I can find it I will post it and see if anyone has any information on it and or have used it.

 

Thanks again for everyone's input about the two saws and their problems, their successes.  Great to hear different opinions on the saws.

 

LOL we all definitely proud of what we all have, no doubt. 

[kgstakes]

I found the table saw I was talking about earlier.  I don't know anything about this guy but the saw looks like a beast.  Problem I see with it is that it would probably cost so much to mass produce that it probably never came to market.

 

Does anyone have this machine?

 

 

[Gregory]

Well, that single screw, holding the fence to the sliding block might be a problem.  😉

[Archi]

Yes, of course, I would be happy if my MicroLux® Table Saw worked as it should. Then all this fanciful Kama Sutra with clamps, screws, overlays, etc. would not be required.

Edited January 21 by Archi

[GregGarriss]

I'm not a modeler but I do a lot of small precise wood working.  I've had a Byrnes saw  and thickness sander for about 11 years now and was just going to order another saw when I read the news. I have most of the attachments / blades and have shop built a few others. It's a pretty wonderful piece of equipment but I wouldn't say it's for everyone.  The tilt table in particular still gives me the creeps everytime I use it. 

 

I initially bought a Proxxon for evaluation but ended up sending it back. I still wrestle with getting one for the tilt arbor.  It was a nice saw and got rave reviews from friends doing similar work. But I found I would need to discard the warranty and make a few mods to get a new saw to where I needed it.  The Brynes saw was there right out of the box and it didn't cost significantly more  than the Proxxon. It's not perfect but it fits my shop..The micro adjustable fence is solid and I made stops so I can dado easily. My wish list would be for a tilt arbor and a true sliding table.  

 

[kgstakes]

I bought a proxxon vs the brynes only because it has the tilt arbor.  Proxxon works for me but if the brynes would have had a tilting arbor there would be no question I would have that saw in my shop.  The tilt table just brought me back to memories of a table saw (full size) that my father had when I was a kid and it would scare me every time he tried to make a cut.  Just looks unsafe because any slip and the cut is bad or fingers missing.

 

 Proxxon works for what I need in a mini table saw and I can cut thin material (rc airplane plywood 1/64”) without any problems.  Cuts are straight and true.

 

 I’ll say it again, each of us like the machine we have and that’s good.  Have fun stay safe and enjoy our hobby!!

[Bob Cleek]

On 1/20/2024 at 9:25 AM, Archi said:

But something bad happened: my wife lifted my Byrnes Table Saw right behind the fence🥵. And I discovered the already skewed the saw fence😖.
Now I will try to reinstall / readjust the Table Saw Fence.

I just noticed this thread, so I'm late to the party, but I saw your comment and thought it might be helpful to mention that the Byrnes saw's fence is intentionally not "straightedged." The back end angles off from the center at the point of the blade's cut to the end where it is, if memory serves, .005" off the centerline of the front end of the fence. The purpose of this feature is to prevent the workpiece from binding past the cut. (After the cutting point, there is no need for the workpiece to lay against the fence.) This has been previously discussed in other posts on this forum.

 

For example, posts #41 and #42 at: 

 

 

 

 

[Archi]

Ok, thanks ! The deviation is approximately 0.13mm. I'll act taking this fact into account.

[Roger Pellett]

Archi,  There are instructions here on MSW written by Jim Byrnes for aligning the fence on one of his saws.  It’s a “pinned” topic here on this machinery category.