Lula by Keith Black - 1:120 Scale - 1870s Sternwheeler Supply Boat for Floating Pile Driver

Keith Black · October 27

This post contains those sites I've come across during my researching for the Lula build that I felt were well worth mentioning. Hopefully they'll be of use to others.

Keith

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/search/categories/marine engines?page[size]=50&page[type]=search&page[sort]=default

https://www.hrmm.org/history-blog/previous/21

http://www.islandnet.com/~westisle/History/horizeng.html

https://www.naval-history.net/WW0Book-Sennett-MarineSteamEngine.htm

https://www.shippingwondersoftheworld.com/marine_engines.html#Elizabeth

https://www.shippingwondersoftheworld.com/modern_boilers.html

Edited October 27 by Keith Black

clearway · November 10

Rum fer yan mare Keith (can translate from Cumbrian if need be 😜)- slipped under my radar this one - another unusual/ interesting prototype.

Keith

Keith Black · November 10

4 hours ago, clearway said:

Rum fer yan mare Keith (can translate from Cumbrian if need be 😜)- slipped under my radar this one - another unusual/ interesting prototype.

Thank you for joining in, Keith.

In the past couple of weeks I haven't thought about modeling as our ten year old refrigerator started failing October the 16th and the need for a new refrigerator has been paramount in my mind. We've been living out of an ice chest for the past couple of weeks as the old frig completely died on October the 29th. Delivery of the first frig ordered was supposed to have taken place on November the 1st. At the time of the order the vendor (big box) said the frig was in stock and would be delivered November the 1st but two days before delivery they said the frig was on backorder from the factory. Order canceled. Second frig ordered, when delivered, was too large to fit through the four doors to the kitchen so we had to buy another that would fit through the doors. It was delivered yesterday and successfully installed. Of course during this time our house looked like it had been stirred with a stick due to doors being removed and furniture pulled away from the door openings. Thank God for our new refrigerator!

Hopefully I can focus my attention on Lula now that we're no longer camping out.

clearway · November 10

Though not as drastic as having no fridge, sounds like our sofa and armchair scenario a few months ago- i gave them the measurements for the 12 foot long 33inch wide hallway and even taking the front door and the hallway door off they couldn't get it in! had to pay a little extra to get reclining armchairs that could have the backs removed so they would fit- but had to wait while they got re-upholstered to match the sofa- three months later we finally had our new sofa and chairs!

keith

Cathead · November 11

I'm back after a few weeks away from MSW and you pose a good question regarding water supply. I've only ever researched inland river steamers and have no idea how brackish water changes the equation or how all the various coastal harbor and river steamers (such as on the lower Hudson) handled that.

As for placement of the funnel/chimney in front of the pilot house, it may be an accident of vessel design. On riverboats, the boilers tended to be relatively near the bow, both to the balance the weight of the engines and paddle wheels further aft, and to help provide draft without being blocked by superstructure. As the pilothouse on riverboats also needed to be near the bow for visibility, it generally ended up being placed more or less over the boilers, meaning the chimneys ended up in front of the pilothouse. Not as big a deal on a normal two-chimney riverboat but a bit awkward with just one. But the rest of the design requirements pretty much force a single chimney to stay there.

I don't know much about regular coastal vessel design, such as the one Jim Lad showed on Oct 18, but I'd guess you still run into similar constraints in that there are only certain places that boilers/engines can go so sometimes you end up with a pilothouse in an awkward place if there are other reasons not to put it elsewhere.

Personally, your fridge saga has been great for me since there's not so much to catch up on in this build!

kurtvd19 · November 12

I would recommend centering the stack as well as the wheel. The Capt would stand to one side or the other and operate the wheel from directly behind the handles on the spokes. Some wheels were quite tall and it was much easier to operate the wheel from one side or the other. Being offset to steer makes the issue of seeing around the stack unimportant. These boats and especially if pushing a barge required the Capt. to be looking way out in front of the boat or the Boat/Barge tow. The throttle and whistle controls were offset to one side or the other or provided on both sides of the wheel thus making the operation of the wheel from behind the spoke handles. This has carried over to this day.

Kurt

Keith Black · November 17

Keith, thank you for sharing your furniture delivery experience.

On 11/11/2024 at 7:26 AM, Cathead said:

so sometimes you end up with a pilothouse in an awkward place if there are other reasons not to put it elsewhere.

On 11/12/2024 at 12:20 PM, kurtvd19 said:

These boats and especially if pushing a barge required the Capt. to be looking way out in front of the boat or the Boat/Barge tow.

Eric and Kurt, thank you both for your sage thoughts.

Time to devote to Lula has been in short supply as of late but I have been laying out her design elements and I should have her profile on paper within the next few days. During layout I was worried about the pilothouse being so far astern until I realized the pilothouse has to be as far astern as possible because of her job pushing the pile driver barge. Forget about trying to see around a stack, the pilot is trying to see around the pile driver tower!

Photo Lula's pilot house has two windows on both the port and starboard sides with the only door at the stern. Knowing the pilot needs as much aside view as possible I think I need to replace the forward windows with doors.

Lula's water tank will be built into the hull set forward allowing the boiler to be set closer to the engine room also a coal bin will be set forward of the boiler. Sacked coal would not have been used because of the numerous coal tenders working the harbor. She'll also have a boom lift near the bow. Because of the water and coal weight plus the mast and boom lift weight I think I can justify placing the boiler closer to the engine room.

I debate with myself whether to have the boiler exposed or inclosed. Exposed makes for a more rough working like appearance while enclosed would be better for keeping steam temperatures elevated. An exposed boiler also provides more visual interest.

Thank you to everyone for following along in these early days of Lula's development. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!

Keith.

Cathead · November 18

If you think enclosed makers more sense but exposed looks better, you can always fall back on the 'ol "repair scene" trick. Make one side of the enclosure solid and have the other one in the process of being re-sided with new planking or something. You could even hang a rolled-up tarp above the opening or something to imply that they're trying to keep it protected until repairs are made but just at the moment the model is frozen in time, the tarp happens to be open. Or some narrative along those lines.

Also, would enclosing the boiler in a simple wooden structure really make a significant difference in its performance? Serious question, I don't know the answer. Intuitively it seems like it wouldn't, really, but I don't know. I can see the argument for an enclosure protecting the metal from corrosive salt spray, though.

Keith Black · November 21

Thank you to everyone for the comments and likes.

Eric, thank you for your input. You've been up and down this road many times, I'm just getting the map unfolded so I'm relying heavily on your comments and builds, mainly the Peerless.

I finally have Lula on paper drawn to scale. Please forgive my amateurish attempt at drafting,. My high school mechanical drafting teacher would be appalled but my tools are a mechanical pencil, ruler, gum eraser (which stinks), and a WWII compass. Hey, I ain't framin' this but if a guy can 5.2 million for a banana and a piece of duct tape.....

In listing the alphabetical details I'm going to start with the last one (K) first.

K. The overall length including the wheel is 82'. The hull is 22" W x 67' L, 4' above the waterline at the bow and 3' at the stern, and a depth of 2' below the WL. The deck is 26' W. There is a clear line of sight from the pilot house's forward windows to the bow where the knees meet the deck.

A. The pilothouse is 8' L, and 10' W, and 8' H on the ends and 7.5' on the sides.

B. The engine room is 12' L x 16' W x 10' H.

C. The wheel is 14' in dia x 14' W.

D This is benched seating for pile driver crew members being transported to and fro. I need to add a dingy so this length may increase to make that accommodation.

E. This is the hanging box for the fire buckets.

F. Doctor engine, size to be determined.

G. The boiler is 4' dia x 12' L, the stack is 22' H.

H. The coal bin is 6' L x 14' and is 6' H on the ends and 5.5' on the sides holding approximately 6 tons. By adding another 2' to the width would increase the holding capacity to 7 tons. I've yet to decide if the the top will be tarped or hatched.

I. The boom lift's mast and boom are 32'. The boom overhangs the bow by 12' and 19' on either side.

J. Capstan, size to be determined.

The above dimensions are flexible at this point should anyone think the above needs to be adjusted. Please don't hesitate to add your comments and thoughts.

Thank you to all who have signed up for Lula's journey. It's been rather slow going to this point but hopefully we'll pick up steam shortly.

Keith

Edited November 22 by Keith Black

Jim Lad · November 21

Can't wait to see her started!

John

Knocklouder · November 21

Keith my friend she looking good. I would switch the door and window on the pilot house A , so when you enter your not interfering with the wheel. Just a thought :cheers:

Bob M.

kurtvd19 · November 21

Make the door swing out. Or consider swapping door and window as Keith mentioned - for visibility for the Capt.

Kurt

Keith Black · November 21

2 hours ago, Jim Lad said:

Can't wait to see her started!

John, thank you. I'm anxious to to start cutting wood versus messing about with the necessary research.

2 hours ago, Knocklouder said:

Keith my friend she looking good. I would switch the door and window on the pilot house A , so when you enter your not interfering with the wheel. Just a thought

2 hours ago, kurtvd19 said:

Make the door swing out. Or consider swapping door and window as Keith mentioned - for visibility for the Capt.

Thank you Bob and Kurt for your thoughts. As seen in the photo of the ferry Lula the only entry is via a door at the stern. My thought on replacing the most forward side windows with doors hinged on the stern side, swinging outward, would allow the pilot to momentarily release the wheel and step through either side door to get a better view forward around the boiler stack, boom mast, pile driver tower, and engine shed.

I can see the need for vertical flags on the bow of the pile driver barge.

image.jpeg.37918efff19776c4ab6a633ada666f18.jpeg

TBlack · November 21

You’ve thought this through pretty thoroughly. Love your draifting! (Draughting, for our Brit friends)

Edited November 21 by TBlack

Keith Black · November 22

35 minutes ago, TBlack said:

You’ve thought this through pretty thoroughly. Love your draifting! (Draughting, for our Brit friends)

Thank you, brother Tom. With no photographic evidence nor plans to go by I've had to rely on thinking through how a supply/work boat would have been built during the early 1870's. I'm positive I've overlooked certain aspects of their construction thus my reliance upon the collective wisdom of my fellow MSW members to help me render a model as correct as possible. Your praise of my drafting is far too kind, but then you always have been.

gsdpic · November 22

Interesting project and thought behind the design. One question though....

In your drawing, you show some space behind the pilot house like on the Lula. But if you have moved the door from the back to the side, is that space back there really needed? If not, the pilot house could be moved back a bit. As it is now, it seems like it would be awkward to use the door. One would have to stand at the very front edge or corner of the platform to swing open the door and get in to the pilot house. Moving the pilot house back would leave more room to walk past the door before opening it.

Keith Black · November 22

1 hour ago, gsdpic said:

f you have moved the door from the back to the side, is that space back there really needed? If not, the pilot house could be moved back a bit. As it is now, it seems like it would be awkward to use the door. One would have to stand at the very front edge or corner of the platform to swing open the door and get in to the pilot house. Moving the pilot house back would leave more room to walk past the door before opening it.

Thank you for your input, Gary.

Folks much more knowledgeable than myself can provide a definitive answer on doing away with the walkway above the wheel and the back of the pilothouse but I'm going to take a stab at answering. One, it allows the most direct entry into the pilothouse because of the stairway. Two and most importantly I think that being able to observe the wheel in operation from above is crucial. Direct observation of the pillow blocks, paddle boards, and possible obstructions can be easily seen from the walkway. I don't see any advantage to moving the pilothouse three feet to the stern plus I like the esthetics of the way the pilothouse sits atop the engine room on the ferry Lula.

Edited November 22 by Keith Black

gsdpic · November 22

23 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

One, it allows the most direct entry into the pilothouse because of the stairway.

Oh, I assumed you removed that door in the back, but it sounds like you are leaving it there. If so, then it makes more sense.

Keith Black · November 22

12 minutes ago, gsdpic said:

I assumed you removed that door in the back, but it sounds like you are leaving it there. If so, then it makes more sense.

Gary, yes the stern door to the pilothouse stays.

Keith Black · November 22

I was thinking about the advantages of the walkway above the wheel and realized I haven't made any provisions for a head.

Cathead · November 22

18 hours ago, Keith Black said:

if a guy can 5.2 million for a banana and a piece of duct tape.....

Keith, please don't eat the completed model.

As for the other discussions, I would have agreed with earlier questions about door placement and so on, but I think they've been resolved if it's assumed that primary entrance to the pilot house is from the stern, and the side doors are mostly there for the pilot to step through briefly.

I do wonder whether she's a bit stern-heavy as drawn. There's nothing forward balancing the weight of the wheel hanging off the stern, and the boilers which are still sitting aft of center. Maybe the answer is just that she's well-ballasted forward? I realize the original Lula looked like that but she presumably had a small gas engine of some kind, lighter than a coal-fired boiler and its associated stack, and liquid fuel tanks can be placed more flexibly than a coal bin that needs to be near the boilers.

Not sure about a head. On riverboats it was common practice to place the head over the wheel so that its natural motion provided waste disposal/dispersal, but I'm not sure in this context. Is this modern enough to have a normal flush head that could be in a corner of any part of the main superstructure?

Keith Black · November 22

thank you to everyone for the comments, likes, and for following along.

1 hour ago, Cathead said:

I do wonder whether she's a bit stern-heavy as drawn.

Eric, I didn't draw the water tank that's built into the hull as it won't be seen on the model, you'll just have to take my word that it's there.

The water tank is 40' L x 18' W x 4' H holding 21,500 gallons weighing 90 tons. It will be placed forward of midship to counter balance the weight at the stern. I've asked Mr Google repeatedly what the weight of the boiler and steam engine were but I've yet to find an answer. If I knew those weights I could say how much forward the water tank would need to be placed.

1 hour ago, Cathead said:

Not sure about a head

I think this will be another one of those "you'll have to take my word for it" items. I envision the head being up against the stern engine room wall on an enclosed raised platform between the two cylinders. I've been mentally spitballing this issue (along with Lula's daily operating cost) since last night. I have to view more photos before I can safely justify placing the head there.

Keith

Keith Black · November 22

1 hour ago, Cathead said:

Keith, please don't eat the completed model.

That's some kinda crazy right there. To spend that much money for nothing and then destroy it just wigs me out. There are a ton of great charities out there that would benefit greatly from a 5.2 million dollar donation.

Keith Black · November 22

Regarding the head.... going through @Ras Ambrioso Zulu build and viewing this photo I think I can justify placing the head between the two cylinders. One wouldn't lack for privacy.

image.png.37393a909f33d03590f2407e0d215020.png

KeithAug · November 22

Oops! I missed this starting. Must be more diligent.

Keith Black · November 22

1 hour ago, KeithAug said:

Oops! I missed this starting

Keith, you haven't missed much, mostly myself showing my ignorance. Your official Lula membership card is in the mail.

BANYAN · November 22

Your plan and layout are well conceived Keith, looking forward to seeing her emerge. I wouldn't be too concerned with the heads as by this time flushing toilets were quite common on vessels - whether the owners of your little vessel worried about the needs and welfare of her crew is another story

cheers

Pat

Keith Black · November 26

Thank you to everyone for the comments and likes.

On 11/22/2024 at 6:29 PM, BANYAN said:

Your plan and layout are well conceived Keith, looking forward to seeing her emerge. I wouldn't be too concerned with the heads as by this time flushing toilets were quite common on vessels - whether the owners of your little vessel worried about the needs and welfare of her crew is another story

Thank you, Pat. The head is going to be simple, two wall divided one holers. I doubt that there was toilet plumbing on an 1870's sternwheeler supply boat.

I finally made some sawdust, Lula's hull is on the ways. I've only got basic shapes at this point but it's the first step.Tons of refinement required before I get to planking.

I ordered The Western Rivers Steamboat Cyclopoedium by Alan Bates. Way past time to better educate myself on this subject. I also placed a fitting order with Cornwall Model Boats and Modelers Central. Hopefully I'll have enough pieces parts to last for a few years.

Question, are the arrows pointing to the rudder arms? If not then what are the arrows pointing to? If it is in fact the rudder arms, the ferry Lula is the only example I've seen done like this. Thoughts, please.

Thanks to all for following along.

Keith

Jim Lad · November 26

A good start, Keith.

John

Cathead · November 26

Great to see the sawdust begin!

As to your question, to me those do indeed look like the rudder posts. As to why they're elevated up there, my best guess is that the compact nature of the superstructure meant that it was simpler to do this than run control lines lower down. On a typical riverboat of the kind I'm familiar with, the vertical rudder posts connect to horizontal tiller arms to which control lines were run from the pilot house using various blocks. Those tiller arms took up a fair amount of horizontal space, which doesn't matter on a large vessel, but certainly would on something as small as Lula.

Here are a few examples. On Arabia, a sidewheeler with a single rudder, you can clearly see the long tiller arm requiring a lot of swiveling space, as well as the block linking the tiller arm to the pilot house. Here it's under the main deck, out of the way, but it's not clear if Lula's size or framing would have allow for that approach. Also, in something as small as Lula, crawling into the stern portion of the hull to repair tiller lines sounds awful, as opposed to having them right overhead in the engine room. My photo from the Arabia musuem in Kansas City.

image.jpeg.a38a3974d1aa75b8193217fb600587db.jpeg

On Bertrand, a sternwheeler, there were two tiller arms linked to posts on the two main rudders that in turn each controlled an outboard slave rudder. This was pretty typical of sternwheelers in the era. Here the tiller arms were just above the main deck, where they were easily accessible for repairs, but they did take up a lot of horizontal space at the rear of the engine room. Vessels this size had that space available, again unlike Lula, where this would take up a big chunk of her tiny engine room floor. Images from National Park Service archeology report.

bertrand_petsche_hull_floor_print1_linescopy.jpg.7b763e8e5b90ef84f4096cef3d3d26e4.jpg

bertrand_petsche_hull_side_printcopy.jpg.fa2384dcaf70f056b7718a53f0c2db66.jpg

So again, it makes sense to me that the tiny Lula would simply extend the rudder posts higher so that the tiller arms and control lines ran just under the ceiling of the engine room, a simple connection to the pilot house immediately above, keeping both the vertical and horizontal components out of the way in the compact engine room. There's probably a bit more torque/stress on those long rudder posts, translating sideways forces down to the rudders, but Lula (as a flatwater tug) probably wasn't subject to the same steering stresses as a riverboat, so I'd guess that didn't matter given the tradeoffs.

Those are my thoughts, but would be happy to hear other perspectives!

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Lula by Keith Black - 1:120 Scale - 1870s Sternwheeler Supply Boat for Floating Pile Driver

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