Lula by Keith Black - 1:120 Scale - 1870s Sternwheeler Supply Boat for Floating Pile Driver

[wefalck]

I concluded the same from looking at the image, but had the feeling that the rudder-post seemed to be too long to be unsupported by pintles. However Cathead's images show that it works.

 

Looking forward to the building process.

[Keith Black]

 Eric, thank you. Now that you've explained the why of things, it makes perfect sense. Thank you again for taking the time to be of assistance. 

[Cathead]

Keith, thinking about steamboats is more fun than the work I'm supposed to be doing, so...

 

Wefalck raises a question I hadn't thought through, which is how the tiller arms are supported in this setup? Are there swiveling hinges/pintles attaching the long rudder posts to the stern wall of the engine room (can't see them in the image due to shadows but can't prove they're not there either)? Or are the tiller arms mounted on a pivot point of some kind just inside the engine room wall?

 

On "normal" steamboats this wouldn't be an issue because the shorter rudder posts would be self-supporting and the tiller arms just extend out from them, like a normal tiller on a sailing vessel. But when those thin posts go up what looks like 7-8', there ends up being a lot more torque at the top and it seems like there would have to be a higher hinge/pintle on the post or a pivot on the arm or else the tops of the posts would twist right off.

 

[wefalck]

Exactly, that seem to be somewhat iffy from an engineering point of view, when I looked at the image last night and I waited to see, whether someone would come up with real evidence.

 

Are the tiller arms connected, as is done on modern catamarans?

[Keith Black]

Eberhard, thank you for adding your input. 

 

 

 Eric, I don't see any means of support. i enlarged the photo on our iMac 27 to the point of pixilation and I don't see diddly. Before asking the question I figured it was the rudder post but because of the lack of another example, the length of the rudder post, small openings, and the lack of supports I thought maybe it wasn't the rudder? I can't think of it being anything else but the setup doesn't make a lot of sense 

 

[Keith Black]

43 minutes ago, wefalck said:

Are the tiller arms connected, as is done on modern catamarans?

Eberhard, to work as viewed it would have to be. The control arms would be forced up against the opening sides causing the the rudder post to swing to the opposite side of the force applied? 

 

 Unless what we're looking at are the supports connected with a hinge and the actual rudder steering connection is below as normal?

Edited November 26 by Keith Black

[Cathead]

Again, my alternate guess is that there's a pivot point supporting the tiller arms,  just inside the engine room wall where you can't see it. The rudders themselves would have normal gudgeon/pintle attachments to the hull, and the rudder posts themselves are freestanding but supported by their strong connection to the tiller arms, which are supported by a vertical pivot point nearby.

 

The wall openings don't have to be very big because the tiller arms are barely moving there; all the broader arc of movement happens within the engine room along the far extension of the tiller arms. Especially if the pivot point is essentially just behind the wall. To me it makes perfect sense. I can make up a rough drawing if you're having trouble envisioning what I'm saying.

[Keith Black]

 Eric, no need to for the drawing, thank you for your willingness to do so.

 

I understand what you're saying.and I believe you're correct. The consternation is due to the bastard setup of the extra long rudder post supported that high up wheel wall. 

 

 Another question while I've got you on the phone........the fantail doesn't extend to the back of Lula's wheel, it stops just astern of the axle. That's a bit abnormal also isn't it? 

[Cathead]

OK, here's a rough sketch of what I'm proposing. The tiller arms would be controlled by various blocks running tiller ropes up to the wheel in the pilot house. They might even be slaved together with a rod connecting them. It would be easy to arrange the ropes such that the wheel's turning translates into the correct motion of the tiller arms; that's how all steamboats worked.

 

[Cathead]

2 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

The fantail doesn't extend to the back of Lula's wheel, it stops just astern of the axle. That's a bit abnormal also isn't it? 

Not really, look at the drawings of Bertrand I posted earlier. You'll see that the wheel supports end just after the axle housing, as they do on Lula.

[Paul Le Wol]

Hi Keith, there does seem to be something  between the starboard post and the wall about six rows of siding down from the top. Maybe a support?

[Keith Black]

15 minutes ago, Paul Le Wol said:

there does seem to be something  between the starboard post and the wall about six rows of siding down from the top. Maybe a support?

 Thank you, Paul. I think what you're seeing is one one of the paddle boards.

 

21 minutes ago, Cathead said:

OK, here's a rough sketch of what I'm proposing

 Thank you, Eric. I'm guessing that this type of rudder design would have made it easier to replace a rudder if damaged. 

[wefalck]

Somehow I imagined that the axes of the rudders would be just behind the forward edge of the rudder-post. However, if the axes were further forward and under the wheelhouse, there could be indeed a support of the tiller arm inside the wheelhouse. This makes perfect sense and the strain on the rudder post would not be torsion, but bending.

[Cathead]

Wefalck, you just made me realize the flaw in my suggested arrangement: it's not physically possible for the rudders to be hinged against the hull while the tiller arms rotate on a vertical pivot point set a foot or so further forward, because even an offset of six inches from the rudder hinges to the pivot point would result in too much bending of the tiller arm. All the rotational axes have to be stacked vertically.

 

So yes, either the rudder hinges are set a bit further forward (under the tiller pivots), or the rudder posts have to be hinged against the back wall. Given that many sternwheelers had sterns that curved sharply forward (see again the drawings of Bertrand) it's at least conceivable that the rudder hinges are set forward enough (a bit beneath the stern's overhang) to be directly under a pivot point mounted up behind the engine room wall. It's also pretty conceivable that the rudder posts are (or could be) hinged against the back wall; just because we can't see them doesn't mean they can't be there!

[Paul Le Wol]

Whatever this is it seems like it might be behind the post

 

.

 

[wefalck]

Looking at the image, I more inclined to think that the there hinges/pintels under the overhang of the stern and underneath the wheelhouse, just inside the wall. This explains why the hole for the tiller in the rear wall can be so small. There would be minimal movement at this point.

[kurtvd19]

1 hour ago, Cathead said:

The tiller arms would be controlled by various blocks running tiller ropes up to the wheel in the pilot house. They might even be slaved together with a rod connecting them. It would be easy to arrange the ropes such that the wheel's turning translates into the correct motion of the tiller arms; that's how all steamboats worked.

I believe Eric is 100% correct.  This is the only way I can see that the steering can work. 

I have been working nonstop on some NRG stuff plus a model commission that has been taking up all my time.  Just saw the rudder question today or I would have commented as Eric did.

Kurt

[Keith Black]

52 minutes ago, Paul Le Wol said:

Whatever this is it seems like it might be behind the post

 Paul, now that you've pointed it out, yes, there is something there! it could well be the necessary hinge Eric spoke of. Thank you for spotting it. 

[Keith Black]

10 minutes ago, kurtvd19 said:

I believe Eric is 100% correct.  This is the only way I can see that the steering can work.

 Kurt, thank you for chiming in on Lula's steering. In all your travels have you seen another similar steering arrangement? 

[clearway]

takes me back to the quandries between keith s and myself when trying to fathom HMS Terror out!- nice to see building commence Keith

 

Keith

[kurtvd19]

1 hour ago, Keith Black said:

have you seen another similar steering arrangement? 

I have not been able to see a bunch of smaller boats and have not seen anything like this but there are only a few ways to transmit the steering to the rudders and small boats used simple arrangements.  Rope around the steering wheel drum down through the floor to pulleys from the roof (directly under the wheel) to pulleys close to the left and right walls of the engine room to about the middle of the engine room and then through pulleys back to the center area of the engine room and then attached to the end of each tiller.  Simple and fool proof.

Tugs used the same arrangement and ran the ropes to the side of the structure and to the pulleys going astern where they were attached to chains that ran in a trough to the stern where they attached to the steering quadrant.  The chain troughs were covered with a lid to keep out most of the rain and snow so the chains didn't freeze in water.  Sometimes the troughs were above the deck instead of inlaid into them and drain holes were provided to drain any water. Many different ways were provided to transmit the steering input to the rudders, but what Eric described is simple and the most likely method used.

Kurt

 

[Keith Black]

4 hours ago, clearway said:

takes me back to the quandries between keith s and myself when trying to fathom HMS Terror out!- nice to see building commence Keith

 

 Thank you, Keith. Golly that seems like eons ago. 

 

3 hours ago, kurtvd19 said:

what Eric described is simple and the most likely method used.

Again, thank you, Kurt. Undoubtedly Eric is correct. Now that we've beat that horse to harness it'll be much easier for me to replicate the steering mechanism.

 

 A hearty thank you to everyone that joined in on the steering discussion. Because of your input I'm the better for it. 

[Cathead]

Glad to help steer you on the right path. 

[Keith Black]

 

 Thank you to all for the comments and the likes.

 

On 11/26/2024 at 9:41 PM, Cathead said:

Glad to help steer you on the right path. 

 Made me laugh, Eric. 

 

 

 Lula's hull is planked.

 I've had a nice piece of 3mm plywood in my spares going on seven years. Being lazy I used it in lieu of making deck/guard beams, It all gets covered over so why not?

 

The transom could use a little more sanding. The hull planks are so smooth I don't know if they'll show when painted? 

 

 Creating the upward sweep was a bit challenging. I glued a two pieces of 0.10 on either side of the wheel opening, split the underside of the plywood forward of the 0.10 added pieces and clamped. The plywood opened but the top layer didn't break, a plan that actually worked first time.  Once fully clamped I dabbed CA into the split and when the CA dried the plywood was as strong as it was before being split. 

 

 

 

Lula's hull next to the pile driver for size comparison. 

 

 

 

 

 A little more fine tuning and I'll be ready to start planking the deck

 

 Thank you to everyone for following along.

 

   Keith

 

Edited Sunday at 07:39 PM by Keith Black

[Cathead]

That's adorable! Great job on a creative way to do the upswept stern, that's always been hard for me to get right. And I've broken off more than my fair share of wheel supports, so I love the solid plywood version.

[TBlack]

I love it when an idea works the first time. I’ll bet Thomas Edison wasn’t as lucky!

[Jim Lad]

A cunning idea to create that upswept stern, Keith.

 

John

[Keith Black]

5 hours ago, Cathead said:

That's adorable! Great job on a creative way to do the upswept stern, that's always been hard for me to get right. And I've broken off more than my fair share of wheel supports, so I love the solid plywood version.

 Thank you. Eric. One thing I failed to mention about creating the upswept is that to get both sides equal I clamped both ends separately to my work table and applied a small amount of pressure at the bow. This set both edges to the same height and it was at this point that I applied CA.

 

 

1 hour ago, TBlack said:

I love it when an idea works the first time. I’ll bet Thomas Edison wasn’t as lucky!

 Thank you, Tom. Yeah, yours truly normally has to fiddle about trying to come up with a solution. This worked out first crack out of the box, needlessly to say I was pleasantly surprised. I thought the idea would work but then I've thought that on several occasions when it didn't. 

[Keith Black]

6 minutes ago, Jim Lad said:

A cunning idea to create that upswept stern, Keith.

 Thank you, John. 

[Keith Black]

Thank you to everyone for the comments and the likes.

 

 

 Lula's deck is planked.

 

 The hull is painted. As I feared the planking doesn't show, oh well.

 

 

  I was in a quandary trying to determine the best approach for building the engine room due to the different elevations. The 1.6 inch piece of wood perpendicular to the deck is the engine room's stern wall's bottom plate. I ran the center decking against the bottom plate forward edge and made the two outside ends flush with the upsweep wheel support decking.

 

 There is so much that needs to be replicated in this tiny area, cylinder timbers and pitman arms running from the engine room, pillow blocks, blocks for making the wheel the correct height, rudder post and the wheel., all to be built within a 1.6 inch W x 1.5 inch L x 1.4 inch H space. 

 

  I deviated from Lula's photo and ran all the decking lengthwise. I get a little more support for the plywood upsweep doing it this way. 

 

 

 

 Thank you to all for following along.

 

  Keith