Lula by Keith Black - 1:120 Scale - 1870s Sternwheeler Supply Boat for Floating Pile Driver

[Ian_Grant]

3 hours ago, Cathead said:

There's a difference between regular Google and Google's AI-generated results. When you search something in Google, often the top result will now be labelled "AI Overview". THAT'S what you should take with a mine's worth of salt. It's AI attempting to synthesize internet-wide results into a coherent answer and it's routinely full of crap. The problem is that AI is a black box and doesn't share where it's getting its information from or how it's analyzing it, so you have no way to assess the accuracy of its sources or results. For just one example, AI tends to assume that quantity equals quality, so it'll spit back whatever it thinks is the most-common answer. But that doesn't make that answer correct.

Cathead is absolutely right. My daughter's 2012 Camry has no maintenance manual and I encountered "AI Overview" while searching for maintenance intervals for fluids. It would have had me changing all fluids quite frequently. My world was turning upside down until I noticed that little "AI Overview" title.

[Keith Black]

 Thank you to everyone for the comments and the likes.

 

 Thank you to all those that joined in on the Google AI discussion. Think I'm gonna go the old/new school route.       https://www.britannica.com

 

 

 Scarier than the thoughts of AI dominating the world wide web was how easy the cylinder timber chain installation went, I expect that at any moment Lula is gonna completely unravel.    I've never had chain go on this effortlessly, I am amazed!   

 

 

 

 

 The list is down to handrails and weathering. 

 

 Thank you to everyone for the support and for following along.

 

  Keith

Edited Tuesday at 08:31 AM by Keith Black

[Canute]

Looks like you have just the correct amount of tension on those chains. We'll sit here waiting to hear the sprong of the tension. 🤞

 

And it looks like you have a leg up on your starboard side weathering. 😉

[Jim Lad]

Very nicely tensioned chains, Keith. Obviously went on easily due to your overall expertise! 🙂

 

A great discussion on AI, by the way. Very helpful to the non-tech savvy like me.

 

John

[Glen McGuire]

Agree with Ken and Jim about the nice tension on the chains.  That had to be harder than you make it sound to get it just right.

 

Also, if you're looking to kill 2 birds with one stone, here's a suggestion for the onboard animal and broom.

[wefalck]

Yep, installing chains properly tensioned is not so trivial, as they do not stretch. On the other hand, in full-scale they have the same problem and one would normally have a turnbuckle there.

 

Looking at the design, I was wondering, whether there shouldn't be another set of chains on the other side of the deckhouse - its structure alone would not be able to balance the strain from the sponsons, I think.

[Tillsbury]

32 minutes ago, wefalck said:

Yep, installing chains properly tensioned is not so trivial, as they do not stretch. On the other hand, in full-scale they have the same problem and one would normally have a turnbuckle there.

 

Looking at the design, I was wondering, whether there shouldn't be another set of chains on the other side of the deckhouse - its structure alone would not be able to balance the strain from the sponsons, I think.

If you look at the very first photo in the thread you can see that this chain/cable doesn't go to the deckhouse at all -- it goes through it to a vertical post and then on to another set of posts at the other end of the boat and back down to deck level.  The deckhouse is just built around it.

[wefalck]

This is indeed how the trusses are led on riverboats and other shallow boats that do not have a strong keel as backbone.

 

Incidentally, such trusses already occur on ancient Egyptian boats ...

[GrandpaPhil]

Keith,

  Lula looks amazing!

[Keith Black]

13 hours ago, Canute said:

Looks like you have just the correct amount of tension on those chains. We'll sit here waiting to hear the sprong of the tension. 🤞

 

And it looks like you have a leg up on your starboard side weathering. 😉

 Thank you, Ken. When I built the engine room I splashed a bit of weathering about and was going to 'weather as you go' on the remainder of construction but thought better of it and decided to wait till all the construction was done before weathering.

 

12 hours ago, Jim Lad said:

Very nicely tensioned chains, Keith. Obviously went on easily due to your overall expertise! 🙂

 

A great discussion on AI, by the way. Very helpful to the non-tech savvy like me.

 Thank you, John. Yes, thankfully we have MSW mates who are much better versed on the technical aspects than I. 

 

11 hours ago, Glen McGuire said:

Agree with Ken and Jim about the nice tension on the chains.  That had to be harder than you make it sound to get it just right.

 

Also, if you're looking to kill 2 birds with one stone, here's a suggestion for the onboard animal and broom.

 Thank you, Glen. It's a pink flamingo or nada.  

 

56 minutes ago, GrandpaPhil said:

Lula looks amazing!

 Thank you, Phil.

 

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

Yep, installing chains properly tensioned is not so trivial, as they do not stretch. On the other hand, in full-scale they have the same problem and one would normally have a turnbuckle there.

 

Looking at the design, I was wondering, whether there shouldn't be another set of chains on the other side of the deckhouse - its structure alone would not be able to balance the strain from the sponsons, I think.

 

1 hour ago, Tillsbury said:

If you look at the very first photo in the thread you can see that this chain/cable doesn't go to the deckhouse at all -- it goes through it to a vertical post and then on to another set of posts at the other end of the boat and back down to deck level.  The deckhouse is just built around it.

 

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

This is indeed how the trusses are led on riverboats and other shallow boats that do not have a strong keel as backbone.

 

Incidentally, such trusses already occur on ancient Egyptian boats ...

 Eberhard and Tillsbury, thank you.

 

 I messed up when I installed the stairways. I knew I wasn't going to route the cylinder timber supports as was seen in Lula the car ferry when I built the engine room. To account for the cylinder timber supports anchored end, I was going to run the chains underneath the stairways from the top to bottom edges. But I had a moment of unchecked exuberance when I installed the stairways and forgot about running the anchoring chains first. Once the stairs were glued in place there was/isn't anyway to run the chains. 😦

 

 Soooo, we gotta pretend a bit. We gotta pretend there's ample metal structure in the port and starboard engine room walls to carry the load and act as anchor points for the cylinder timber chains attached at the top of the engine room's stern wall. Are you wid me or again me?   

 

 I do apologize for waiting till now to bring clarity to the situation but I thought, "well, maybe they won't notice"...........yeah right, LOL.   

 

 

   

 

Edited Tuesday at 09:54 AM by Keith Black

[wefalck]

Sorry for having tread this loose ... you could run a pair of chains (or solid bar stays) from the forward end of the canopy over the boiler further forward, say towards a point at the hull left and right of the mast.

[Cathead]

2 hours ago, Keith Black said:

Soooo, we gotta pretend a bit. We gotta pretend there's ample metal structure in the port and starboard engine room walls to carry the load and act as anchor points for the cylinder timber chains attached at the top of the engine room's stern wall. Are you wid me or again me?

Honestly there's an even better pretend option; just assume that the angled hog chain post within the engine room doesn't extend up through the boiler deck floor as on the real thing, but is a bit shorter and set further back, such that the chains you have meet it right at the stern wall. In other words, it's there but hidden from sight. 

 

Yeah, this doesn't fully transfer the weight forward, but that's a detail only the most technical observer will notice. Your current way deals with the more obvious visual question "what's holding up the wheel?".

[Keith Black]

4 hours ago, wefalck said:

Sorry for having tread this loose ... you could run a pair of chains (or solid bar stays) from the forward end of the canopy over the boiler further forward, say towards a point at the hull left and right of the mast.

 Too much is in the way plus Lula is getting to be a delicate little thing.  Now, I hold my breath each time I pick up Lula to work on her.

 

3 hours ago, Cathead said:

Honestly there's an even better pretend option; just assume that the angled hog chain post within the engine room doesn't extend up through the boiler deck floor as on the real thing, but is a bit shorter and set further back, such that the chains you have meet it right at the stern wall. In other words, it's there but hidden from sight. 

 

 Yeah, this doesn't fully transfer the weight forward, but that's a detail only the most technical observer will notice. Your current way deals with the more obvious visual question "what's holding up the wheel?".

 Eric, I think you and I are both envisioning the same thing and I agree with you. It's the easiest solution to the compromised situation I've created.

 

 

 All this all brings up a question I've had regarding the hog chains running from the ends of the cylinder timbers up and over the length of the hull anchoring at the bow..... on some sternwheelers. Not all sternwheelers had that lengthy hog chain run.

 

 It would seem that the lengthy run was unnecessary for just cylinder timber/wheel support? Was there another reason for that run the full length of the vessel? Was it also intended as a lighting rod or some other reason? As I said, not all sternwheelers were built that way so it doesn't seem as if it was totally necessary or all would have been built the same.

 

 

    

[wefalck]

Well, the 'hog-chains' are there to prevent exactly that, the 'hogging' of the boat. It has the same function as the girders/trusses on a bridge above the way. Shallow hulls without (external) keel may not have sufficient strength against bending/hogging, so they need these trusses in the same way a girder-bridge needs them.

 

These trusses are not necessarily chains, but could be iron rods or connected wooden beams. A girder structure of wooden beams could be hidden in the constructional arrangements of superstructure without being so obvious as in the old-time river-boats.

 

Extending the trusses/hog-chains beyond the pivotal pole of the derrick, however, could limit its range of movement. So I would doubt that in a real case they would have been extended further, though from a mechanical point this would be advantageous.

 

[Keith Black]

14 minutes ago, wefalck said:

Well, the 'hog-chains' are there to prevent exactly that, the 'hogging' of the boat. It has the same function as the girders/trusses on a bridge above the way. Shallow hulls without (external) keel may not have sufficient strength against bending/hogging, so they need these trusses in the same way a girder-bridge needs them.

 

These trusses are not necessarily chains, but could be iron rods or connected wooden beams. A girder structure of wooden beams could be hidden in the constructional arrangements of superstructure without being so obvious as in the old-time river-boats.

 

Extending the trusses/hog-chains beyond the pivotal pole of the derrick, however, could limit its range of movement. So I would doubt that in a real case they would have been extended further, though from a mechanical point this would be advantageous.

 Thank you, Eberhard. The reason is obvious after your explanation as to the why.

 

 Lula's a bit different in that her hull construction is different. Lula's hull is built around a large water tank so she can deliver water to the pile drivers.   

[Cathead]

34 minutes ago, Keith Black said:

Not all sternwheelers had that lengthy hog chain run.

Can you show an example? To the best of my knowledge, and as wefalck implies, this was an integral part of steamboat structure (stern or side wheel) and not easily dispensed with. They're sometimes not easy to see, but until the development of metals hulls were pretty essential. They keep the lightweight hull structure from essentially folding up like an origami construction and so have to run most of the length of the hull. I've never seen a traditional stern or sidewheeler that didn't have longitudinal hog chains and often latitudinal ones as well. 

 

Now, to be more specific, that's true of RIVERboats, because they needed shallow, lightweight hulls to navigate shallow river conditions, and so couldn't afford the hull bracing typical of marine vessels. Your original Lula was indeed a riverboat with hog chain bracing, but your modeled Lula is a harbor vessel with less concern about draft, so you could also assume that it has a stronger hull than the typical riverboat.

[Keith Black]

 

4 hours ago, Cathead said:

Can you show an example? To the best of my knowledge, and as wefalck implies, this was an integral part of steamboat structure (stern or side wheel) and not easily dispensed with. They're sometimes not easy to see, but until the development of metals hulls were pretty essential. They keep the lightweight hull structure from essentially folding up like an origami construction and so have to run most of the length of the hull. I've never seen a traditional stern or sidewheeler that didn't have longitudinal hog chains and often latitudinal ones as well. 

 

Now, to be more specific, that's true of RIVERboats, because they needed shallow, lightweight hulls to navigate shallow river conditions, and so couldn't afford the hull bracing typical of marine vessels. Your original Lula was indeed a riverboat with hog chain bracing, but your modeled Lula is a harbor vessel with less concern about draft, so you could also assume that it has a stronger hull than the typical riverboat.

 Eric, below are examples  of the lack of full hull length hog chains, I think?  

 

 

This looks to be a harbor vessel so she wouldn't count.

 I can see the timber/wheel chain support at the stern but I don't see it carried the full hull length.

 

 I don't even see timber /wheel supports for this one.

 

Unfortunately I don't have a forward image of this vessel so full length supports could

and we just can't see them.

 

 Triangular stern support (much how I envision the necessity for Lula to be supported) but no obvious full hull length support.

 

No obvious full hull length support.

 

 

Same as the image above, no obvious full hull length support.

 

 Eric, I quickly grabbed these examples and I could be dead wrong on all counts.

 

  Keith

 

  Edit... I see the full hull support for the one in the third photo, please disregard #3. the last photo appears to be a steal hull, disregard. also.

Edited Tuesday at 09:29 PM by Keith Black

[FriedClams]

Lula is looking great with completion around the corner.  Good call on your next build subject, Keith - interesting craft and just your style.

 

Gary 

[Cathead]

Keith, most of those appear to be steel-hull vessels. For one thing, the super-long hulls and short stacks imply they're late-era vessels that are more likely to overlap with early metal hulls.

 

#1 is, as you suggest, a harbor vessel and not representative.

 

#2 is the Monongehela, a steel-hull built in 1927 (https://www.waterwaysjournal.net/2021/01/24/the-towboat-monongahela/)

 

#3 I can't identify but looks like a lake steamer design, and a post-1900 one at that given the more modern davits and lifeboats as well as the thin metal paddlewheel, so very well may be a steel hull. Even if not, if she's a lake steamer, she can have a heavier, more rigid hull than a riverboat so may have more muted support structures above deck. Or if she does have a full set of hog chains, they may well be hidden within the superstructure and since we can't see a bow view we can't tell for sure.

 

#4 is the George Verity, another 1927 steel-hull vessel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M._Verity_(towboat)). And though your view is from astern, the photo from Wikipedia is forward and shows the same long hull, short stack design of that era.

 

#5 is the Orco, built in 1936 according to the UW LaCross library (https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/ACNQC2XXRJ4USX8G), so again very likely a steel-hull vessel.

 

#6 is definitely a steel hull, and the 1935 date of the photo helps confirm this. 

 

These are all fun photos to look at, and thank you for sharing, but I'll maintain that any wooden-hulled riverboat had to have hog chains for structural integrity, until the development of steel hulls or unless it was designed to operate in deeper water (e.g. the Hudson) where shallow draft and/or light weight wasn't a consideration. If I recall correctly, the original Lula was up in Montana, so absolutely fit those constraints. Your version is meant to be a Hudson River / port boat, right? So you can get away with fudging it a bit.

[Keith Black]

4 hours ago, Cathead said:

These are all fun photos to look at, and thank you for sharing, but I'll maintain that any wooden-hulled riverboat had to have hog chains for structural integrity, until the development of steel hulls or unless it was designed to operate in deeper water (e.g. the Hudson) where shallow draft and/or light weight wasn't a consideration. If I recall correctly, the original Lula was up in Montana, so absolutely fit those constraints. Your version is meant to be a Hudson River / port boat, right? So you can get away with fudging it a bit.

 Eric, thank you for taking the time to teach me. I can't tell how much I truly appreciate it.

 

 I was seeing sternwheelers without full hull length support not knowing or understanding the why of it. Now that I'm more educated I can view and appreciate what I'm seeing when observing sternwheeler images. For that, I again, thank you.

 

7 hours ago, FriedClams said:

Lula is looking great with completion around the corner.  Good call on your next build subject, Keith - interesting craft and just your style.

 Thank you, Gary. I hope I'm allowed the opportunity to work on that sternwheeler from the Hard Coal Navy days. She is truly an ugly duck. 

[Cathead]

7 hours ago, Keith Black said:

Eric, thank you for taking the time to teach me.

I've learned plenty from your work, believe me.

[kurtvd19]

Learning from each other is what makes MSW so valuable.

Kurt

 

[Cathead]

Kurt, do you agree with my assessment above? You're the true expert here, you and Roger, and I'm happy to be corrected if I misstated something.

[kurtvd19]

I agree that a steel hull would be less likely to require full length hog chains as longitudinal stiffening can be incorporated into the hull structure.  Also a lake boat with the ability to have a deeper draft could be more heavily built eliminating the need for hog chains.  However, as show with the Verity some additional support is required for the stern wheel.  I have been aboard the Verity many times but until I can find old 35mm negatives of the interior I can't positively rule out internal hog chains, though I doubt it was so equipped.  I have seen many photographs of hog chains run through interior spaces; even in palatial riverboats.

 

In general terms I am pretty sure your statements are accurate.

 

I wish I could call a couple of old friends to ask as they would have the answers at hand.  Thinking of Ralph DuPae, Jim Swift and Alan Bates.  I have been trying to contact another old friend that unlike the three I just mentioned was alive the last time I was able to check.  Jack Custer was the Editor and Publisher of the Egregious Steamboat Journal and knew an awful lot about steamboat history and construction, especially for a professor of Latin!  He was working on some drawings showing internal hog chain use, both longitudinal and cross ways.  Most don't know that many boats had cross wise hog chains in addition to longitudinal.  Jack was preparing a paper for the NRG's Journal.  My phone calls go unanswered and the it gives me hope as the number is operating not disconnected.

[Keith Black]

 Kurt and Eric, I am honored that both of you have taken the time to offer sage advise and answer my many beginner's questions. Your willingness to do so time and again is humbling and I am forever grateful. 

[Keith Black]

 Thank you to everyone for the kind comments and for the likes. 

 

 

 I got the dinghy weathered and glued down, I still need to add a coil off rope around that sprue. You can barley see that sprue in normal viewing. I used a brown pastel to weather the inside of the dinghy but it's got a pinkish tint to it. I know not why and I'm not sure how to fix it other use a little black? 

 

 I received a box of three cats today from an Etsy supplier. They're supposed to be HO scale but they seem smaller which is okay. The one sitting on the fire bucket box is 0.115 inches high. To see any detail it must be viewed under magnification. 

 

 It snuck aboard and I'm really not in favor of it sticking around as I think it's bad luck to have a black cat onboard. I've temporally named the cat, D1. 

 

 This cat sharpening it's claws on topping lift line I named Stump Grinder. It's more or less the lead deckhand's cat. It's a little bigger than D1.

 

I couldn't get a good in focus photo of the cat laying on its belly beside the Derrick crane mast. This cat doesn't have a name yet. It's larger in girth than Stump Grinder. I may name it D8. 

 

 

 If you think I'm procrastinating doing the handrails you are correct. 

 

  Thank you to everyone for the support and for following along.

 

   Keith