von stetina Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share #61 Posted March 30, 2014 I've been busy on a customers RR project and am catching up a bit. I'm now ready to start putting on the jib boom rigging. As I've mentioned, I'm working stern to bow. This is giving me easy access to the areas I need to attach the stays to. Not sure why books recommend the other way like a real ship. I don't have real live 1/96 people to work for me on there. I'm pretty bust on these RR projects right now, if you want to know anything about the photos let me know. A can't figure out why I can't rotate the photos, I can't even find some that need it in the file!?! By the way, this latest RR work has allowed mew to add a brass casting set up,[jewelery set up]. Once I get it figured out I'll be able to use it for my ship modeling. And heck, I'll make some freaky jewelery too. Bruce Rudolf, popeye the sailor, trippwj and 16 others 19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Lad Posted March 30, 2014 Share #62 Posted March 30, 2014 Great to see that you've got time for your model again, Bruce! John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor1234567890 Posted March 31, 2014 Share #63 Posted March 31, 2014 Yes, looking forward to seeing more progress on her. She's quite a ship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von stetina Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share #64 Posted April 1, 2014 Hi guys, Here are some pics of the upper masts and most of the stays on. She wasn't a lofty ship as launched. The Brits added more when they took delivery, McKay gave her an extra wide rig instead, with the main yard being 95 feet long. I feel that he wanted to get power this way, maybe to minimize heeling as she was a passenger ship. Any of your views on this would be interesting. Bruce SailorGreg, Aussie048, Mirabell61 and 20 others 23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael mott Posted April 1, 2014 Share #65 Posted April 1, 2014 A fine looking vessel there Bruce, I am always surprised by how small the rudders seem on these ships. Michael Quote Current builds Bristol Pilot Cutter 1:8; Skipjack 19 foot Launch 1:8; Herreshoff Buzzards Bay 14 1:8 Other projects Pilot Cutter 1:500 ; Maria, 1:2 Now just a memory Future model Gill Smith Catboat Pauline 1:8 Finished projects A Bassett Lowke steamship Albertic 1:100 Anything you can imagine is possible, when you put your mind to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von stetina Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share #66 Posted April 1, 2014 Hi Micheal, I guess that's all they needed, and the tillers were so short. I'll bet they handled very easily when the sails were balanced right. The steering mechanisms seem delicate. They were beafier than they look in the books though. I had a look at the Cutty Sark's. It looked pretty strong. Also on these big American ships there was rarely a double wheel as far as I can tell. I only see them in the book The Search for Speed Under Sail on 2 ships plans. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdT Posted April 1, 2014 Share #67 Posted April 1, 2014 Glad to see you back, Bruce - and look forward to following the work. Looks great so far. Can't comment on the rig, but will compare some drawings and think about it. I too would be interested in others' comments on this. Ed Quote All EdT posted material Copyright 2016 Edward J Tosti Young America - extreme clipper 1853 Young America POB Version Modeling the Extreme Clipper Young America Vol 1 1:60 HMS Naiad 1797 The Naiad Frigate Vol I The Naiad Frigate Vol II1:96 Victory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwiederrich Posted April 1, 2014 Share #68 Posted April 1, 2014 Outstanding work.......impressive. Rob Quote Current build: Build log: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25382-glory-of-the-seas-medium-clipper-1869-by-rwiederrich-196 Finished build: Build log: of 1/128th Great Republic: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13740-great-republic-by-rwiederrich-four-masted-extreme-clipper-1853/# Current build(On hold): Build log: 1/96 Donald McKay:http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4522-donald-mckay-medium-clipper-by-rwiederrich-1855/ Completed build: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/gallery/album/475-196-cutty-sark-plastic/ The LORD said, "See, I have set (them) aside...with skills of all kinds, to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver, and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of crafts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Lad Posted April 1, 2014 Share #69 Posted April 1, 2014 Beautiful overall photos showing the model to good advantage, Bruce. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor1234567890 Posted April 2, 2014 Share #70 Posted April 2, 2014 They did have small rudders but when a sail plan and hull are properly balanced, a ship doesn't need a large rudder. It acts as a brake anyway, slowing the ship down when used. Better to maintain course by carefully balancing the sails. Also, the steering mechanism didn't need to be big and powerful. It needed to be robust but it wasn't turning a large rudder so the forces (presuming the sail plan was properly balance) were relatively smaller. It's more of a trim tab really when you think about it. The threaded screw system that most of these ships used were very much strong enough to handle the stresses imposed on them. Yours is looking great. I am no naval architect but I do tend to think, like you, that the shorter wider rig was to help alleviate some of the lever arm that a taller rig would clearly have. I'm not sure if a larger lower sail produces the same power as a higher smaller sail but I do know that the wind speed changes as you go up in altitude so there is much to gain from a tall sail plan. If one were to look down from the upper yard of a tall rig such as the old four posters one would see the yards corkscrew down to the lower yard. This is because the wind changes speed and direction as you move up in the air column. The coriolis effect ensures of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von stetina Posted April 2, 2014 Author Share #71 Posted April 2, 2014 Thanks everyone, Sailor, I was going to mention this. Also the hulls give an excellent flow to the rudder. The clipper hull shape allowed small rudders. Large ones were no longer needed as seen on older sailing ships. The efficient hulls and rigs must have made balancing the ship to it's rudder easy. My opinion on the Lightning's wide rig as opposed to a tall one has given me a lot of thought. And McKay's many different experiments in hull shape too. For instance compare the 4 ships built for the James Baines Co. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jo conrad Posted April 6, 2014 Share #72 Posted April 6, 2014 (edited) Hello, Sailor. This is because the wind changes speed and direction as you move up in the air column. Correct ! The coriolis effect ensures of it. The Coriolis effect might contribute a bit , but the effect on a comparatively slow moving object like a ship is neglectable. Looking down to the deck from the royal yard footropes will show, how the yards of a square rigger are increasingly braced up to the apparent (!) wind, when sailing with winds from the quarter to a close-hauled position of the yards. A parallelogram of the two particular components, adding up to the apparent wind across the lee side of the sails ( headwind from the ship´s speed, true wind measured while the ship is stagnant in the water ) will display, that the apparent wind is a resulting force of the other two. Depending on the force of the true wind and of the different heights of the rigging, a bracing angle of up to 20 degrees from the royals down to the courses is necessary. Directly above the surface the speed of the true wind is reduced by the friction and turbulences of the water, and so the ship´s headwind can deviate it to a more scantling direction. Accordingly the lower yards are more and more braced up sharp. This decelerating moment of surface friction peters out up to the royal yards, turning the apparent wind closer back to the direction of the true wind, which allows the upper yards a more square position. The twist of a bermuda-rigged sailing boat shows the very same adjustment : the higher up the sail, the more "open" the roach. Would the Coriolis effects play a significant role in this particular situation, sailing ship´s masters of old times would have braced up their sails differently depending on which hemisphere they had been sailing. To the best of my knowlegde they didn´t, but went strictly by the apparent wind. Greetings from another ex-mariner Germanus Edited April 6, 2014 by jo conrad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NenadM Posted April 6, 2014 Share #73 Posted April 6, 2014 Looking your job, I must admit that I am litle frightened about rigging works. I hope to learn your skils until I reach that staage Very good work Nenad Quote In progress: CUTTY SARK - Tehnodidakta => scratch => Campbell plans http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/2501-cutty-sark-by-nenad-tehnodidakta-scratched-campbells-plans/page-1#entry64653 Content of log : http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/2501-cutty-sark-by-nenad-tehnodidakta-scratched-campbells-plans/page-62#entry217381 Past build: Stella, Heller kit, plastic, Santa Maria, Tehnodidakta kit, wood, Jolly Roger Heller kit, plastic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von stetina Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share #74 Posted April 9, 2014 Thanks Guys, Nenad, I'm still a bit frightened of it too, and this is my 2nd try on this standing rigging! I stripped the first try off ratlines and all. All seems to be staying taught this time though. We'll see when the summer heat and humidity hits though. It's all soaked in Conservators Wax so I have high hopes. As far as the corkscrew effect look of the braced yards, I read in a few books that this was to watch the edge of the sails for flutter so as not to be taken aback. But then I've not sailed on a square rigger. [YET!] So I'm no expert. Bruce NenadM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NenadM Posted April 9, 2014 Share #75 Posted April 9, 2014 You are doing well, Bruce Keep on posting every detail you can if you are pleased to do Quote In progress: CUTTY SARK - Tehnodidakta => scratch => Campbell plans http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/2501-cutty-sark-by-nenad-tehnodidakta-scratched-campbells-plans/page-1#entry64653 Content of log : http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/2501-cutty-sark-by-nenad-tehnodidakta-scratched-campbells-plans/page-62#entry217381 Past build: Stella, Heller kit, plastic, Santa Maria, Tehnodidakta kit, wood, Jolly Roger Heller kit, plastic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirabell61 Posted April 9, 2014 Share #76 Posted April 9, 2014 Bruce, I just had a look at your build page 1-6 and am very impressed of your Clipper Lightning. Are there any previously posted parts of the Framework, hull, plating sequences, etc, that perhaps went lost after the MSW 1 Crash ? Have I missed anything ? In all a very nice and clean built model, shall love to see the coming parts Well done! Nils Quote Current builds -Lightship Elbe 1 Completed - Steamship Ergenstrasse ex Laker Corsicana 1918- scale 1:87 scratchbuild - "Zeesboot" heritage wooden fishing small craft around 1870, POB clinker scratch build scale 1:24 - Pilot Schooner # 5 ELBE ex Wanderbird, scale 1:50 scratchbuild - Mississippi Sterwheelsteamer built as christmapresent for grandson modified kit build - Chebec "Eagle of Algier" 1753--scale 1:48-POB-(scratchbuild) "SS Kaiser Wilhelm der Grosse" four stacker passenger liner of 1897, blue ribbond awarded, 1:144 (scratchbuild) "HMS Pegasus" , 16 gun sloop, Swan-Class 1776-1777 scale 1:64 from Amati plan -"Pamir" 4-mast barque, P-liner, 1:96 (scratchbuild) -"Gorch Fock 2" German Navy cadet training 3-mast barque, 1:95 (scratchbuild) "Heinrich Kayser" heritage Merchant Steamship, 1:96 (scratchbuild) original was my grandfathers ship -"Bohuslän" , heritage ,live Swedish museum passenger steamer (Billings kit), 1:50 "Lorbas", river tug, steam driven for RC, fictive design (scratchbuild), scale appr. 1:32 under restoration / restoration finished "Hjejlen" steam paddlewheeler, 1861, Billings Boats rare old kit, scale 1:50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jo conrad Posted April 9, 2014 Share #77 Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) Hi Bruce, it´s killing two flies with one flatter ( or two birds with one stone. I prefere killing flies instead of birds, btw. :-)) : most efficient sailing, and preventing the rig from stalling at one go. If you have a look along an airplane wing you´ll see this "corkscrew" again: due to the reduced speed of the air flow along the fuselage the inner wing is pitched much more than the tip. And so stalling, should it happen at all, first starts at the wing tip, thus giving the pilot enough time to push her back to normal. As you posted before: the very same stalling mechanism can be observed if a dozing helmsman in the middle of a warm night spell in the trades doesn´t observe his royal leaches: if he lets the ship head up, the windward leeches start flapping/stalling first, and hopefully wake him up, before the whole rig is taken aback. Wonderful model, Bruce, my compliments. There is something about these gallant and powerful vessels, that makes shiplovers´ hearts ring to this very day. Made of wood and iron by men, who truely knew their trade, they represented a standard of craftmanship well worth the remembering. Germanus Edited April 9, 2014 by jo conrad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von stetina Posted April 11, 2014 Author Share #78 Posted April 11, 2014 Hi Nils, I lost a bit in the crash. The hull is built by birch ply bulkhead and basswood fill between. Each section glued then doweled through at an angle to lock everything in place. Some early photos are on my website: www.vonstetinaartworks.com just find the heading for the ship among the others. While there you can see my brass RR modeling too. Hi Germanus. Thanks, and thanks for the good info. I've noticed the plane wings, being a USAF veteran. Bruce Lou van Wijhe and Mirabell61 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von stetina Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share #79 Posted January 5, 2015 Hi folks, I've been busy with commission for railroad models. This is a temporary case I made to keep my model clean as I rig it. It had been colelcting an impressive array of cat hair and etc. It took a while to clean it, especially the rigging. It was time for a solution. The front lifts off, and the model slides out to turn it around. I will post a lot more photos soon as the standing rigging complete except for ra\tr lines which are under way. Sorry for being away so long. Bruce popeye the sailor, EdT and avsjerome2003 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von stetina Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share #80 Posted January 5, 2015 The bow is complete. Notice the different size chain. The chain was difficult to size so that there was no slack. I did this by removing links and adjusting the bullseyes. I bumped the chain with a finger and it went slack....pre stretch the chain first! Bruce Mahuna, SailorGreg, Mirabell61 and 12 others 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von stetina Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share #81 Posted January 5, 2015 The fish tackle in place. On the far side you can see the whisker booms finally folded down, rigged and fixed in place. I tied fine thread on them to be sure they stayed there Bruce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von stetina Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share #82 Posted January 5, 2015 The spanker boom and gaff rigged in place. Using the correct different sizes of rigging bring on the appearance of reality. Seeing the blocks in place is bringing the ship to life for me. Just as doing the rigging on my oil paintings brings the ship to iofe for me. I took a piece of brass tubing and ovaled it out to wrap my coils of line around to be put on the belaying pins. A touch of white glue fixed their positions. OH! I forgot to tell you, the flying jib boom is made of brass. The wooden one would have broken. I kept bumping the brass one. Next ship at 1/8 scale I'll do more of this. Bruce hexnut, avsjerome2003, EdT and 11 others 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von stetina Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share #83 Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) It felt great to finally put on the spreaders. Waiting to put them on until now allowed me to position the length and spread correctly. Putting them on too early could have resulted in a bad fit. They are made of brass also. Another thing I wanted to mention is the use of bullseyes instead of deadeyes here. This is correct for the period. Time to spend some time with the wife, I'll post more later. Bruce Edited January 5, 2015 by von stetina gieb8688, popeye the sailor, mtaylor and 10 others 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwiederrich Posted January 5, 2015 Share #84 Posted January 5, 2015 Amazing Bruce....just amazing! I have an antique mounted half model of the Lighting.........Your hull looks just like it. Rob Quote Current build: Build log: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25382-glory-of-the-seas-medium-clipper-1869-by-rwiederrich-196 Finished build: Build log: of 1/128th Great Republic: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/13740-great-republic-by-rwiederrich-four-masted-extreme-clipper-1853/# Current build(On hold): Build log: 1/96 Donald McKay:http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/4522-donald-mckay-medium-clipper-by-rwiederrich-1855/ Completed build: http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/gallery/album/475-196-cutty-sark-plastic/ The LORD said, "See, I have set (them) aside...with skills of all kinds, to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver, and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of crafts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elia Posted January 5, 2015 Share #85 Posted January 5, 2015 Superb, Bruce. I'm very glad to see your update. The scale of details and lines, and of detailing, are quite impressive. Cheers Elia Quote Elia Rose Valley, PA Arethusa: 1907 Gloucester Knockabout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
druxey Posted January 5, 2015 Share #86 Posted January 5, 2015 Beautiful work, Bruce. Yup, cat hair will get everywhere and on everything.... Good to see you back. Quote Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series http://trafalgar.tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor1234567890 Posted January 5, 2015 Share #87 Posted January 5, 2015 Looking good. Keep at it. You must satiate the masses cravings here. mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von stetina Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share #88 Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Hi Rob, Elias, and Druxey, Thanks, I've been anxious to get back to work on the Lightning. I have a bit more to post coming up, then I'm afraid it's back to work hustling to make a buck. At least it's work that I enjoy. For the RR guys I build in brass. Anyone wanting to see how an iron ship modeled in metal looks go to Gerald Wingrove's website. He has some very good books published too.Just the complicated little machines he makes to build his model is worth a look. The metal forming and rivet making tools for this ship model a incredible. Bruce Edited January 5, 2015 by von stetina mtaylor and EdT 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von stetina Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share #89 Posted January 5, 2015 A look at the backstays. Originally I had intended to us Conservators wax on all of the rigging. However I found that it didn't lay down fuzz well enough so for the running rigging I switched to beeswax. On the heavier lines of standing rigging the Conservators wax was good, but when used on the finer stuff I wasn't happy. I keep bumping fingers into the thin lines and they slacken. I was trying deal with the idea of doing some over when I just wiped a finger of, um, spit, down the line. It tightened right up! So now besides being careful I just do this. I'm not to this point yet but in Wingrove's ship modeling book he says to put the yards on by doing the highest first and working down. Have any of you done this? michael mott, Elia, IgorSky and 4 others 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von stetina Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share #90 Posted January 5, 2015 A look at the overall project. It's such a relief to be able to button up my model safely in the temporary case. You might notice that the ship is mounted on it's base at this point. It was time for the stability and safety of being fixed in place. The supports on the side are blackened brass. I experimented with different looks for this and settled on the simplest way. The model will need to be shipped a long way and need this stability. SailorGreg, tadheus, Elia and 10 others 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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