Rattlesnake by JPett - Model Shipways - Scale 1/64th - Kit #MS2028

[JPett]

Ahoy Mates

 

 

Build Update:

 

I am almost finished painting the wales. Almost because I have a small error to correct. It seems I am a little asymmetrical in the stern. It is a minor issue but I have decided to correct it as a learning experience. Next time I do this I will pencil out both sides and confirm symmetry before any taping or painting. Good news, the WOP does not affect the fully cured enamel paint as I originally feared making this repair and painting the gunwales much easier. I had originally tested it on paint that had only cured for 24 hours. After a week it is much more resilient. I can only guess the enamel paint reacted to the WOP used as a base extending the cure time.

 

The next picture shows how I am currently doing the gun ports using a level. There has to be an better way.  My earlier attempts had the gun port sills inline or following the sweep of the hull, not flat, like the water line. I also did not like that fact the this framework went straight across the curved areas in the bow. Not sure how exactly I will fix this. Right now I am thinking about pre-bending the wood like planks before installing them. I am also using 1/16 by 1/8 wood (not the 1/16 by 1/16 recommended) which I find much easier to work with.

 

You can also see that I am almost finished coating the inside of the hull with PVA. I did this slowly and in sections, alternating sides when I could to prevent the contraction of the PVA from warping my hull. Dan Vadas has a repair practicum that deals with PVA contracting that caused me to give this some concern. I decided to be safe.

 

Thanks for stopping by and please feel free to comment. Any tips on a better way to do the gun ports would be appreciated

Edited July 15, 2013 by JPett

[md1400cs]

J Pett,

 

I only see the steps forward, and those are "keep on truckin" steps. Sweet build. I'm also learning a lot from you.

 

Regards,

 

Michael 

[Trussben]

Hi JP,

 

Not having built the Rat I am unsure wether the gunports should follow the sheer of the wales but I would guess so, does the deck follow the lines of the wales?

If it does then I would use a temp batten to get the correct shape at the correct height above the deck and then mark each bulkhead and then install the sills/lintels to those marks. Also maybe use thicker wood and fair it back to the bulkheads inside and out, that will get rid of those strait lines.

Take a look at my Confed log first few pages and you will see me doing exactly that.

Hope that helps somewhat.

 

Ben

Edited July 15, 2013 by Trussben

[russ]

The gunports follow the deck line. The deck line does not necessarily follow the wales or the sheer line.

 

Russ

[JPett]

Ahoy Mates

 

I am using my cannon jig for the correct spacing off the deck. It is the orientation of the sills that I am addressing. They follow the same plane as the waterline with their height determined by the deck. 

 

"Please" do not confuse me with some who knows what their doing either. That would be a mistake

Edited July 15, 2013 by JPett

[popeye the sailor]

rather than all of the other observations....they should follow the curve of the hull itself.   picture in your mind of how the planking runs,  and you will see how they should go.......allow in mm's to avoid the ribs.....and there you go.   remember that a kit's framing is not going to be the same as the actual ship framing.  

 

if your looking for that,  then you might as well cut off all the rib posts and start from scratch....which will equate to a lot of extra work.  your doing a great job thus far......figure where the fore castle is.......and the start of the stern,  and measure out from these points.  it won't be exact,  but at least you'll be in the ballpark.   it will look good,  trust me!

[texxn5]

Looking good Dude, keep it up and love the pictures.

[Martin W]

Hi JPett -- Here's one suggestion for locating the gunports (for what it's worth):  if you look at Lankford's plans, you can measure up from the wales, since Lankford says the width of the planking is accurate in his drawing.  You can then see how the bottom of the foremost ports cut further into the plank that the ones in the midships do.  You might even photocopy that part of the plans, cut out the section of the hull drawing from the wales up, and tape it to your own hull. 

 

I don't think the level strategy will work.  But you might use a water line marking tool.

 

Cheers from your fellow Ratt,

 

Martin

[JPett]

Ahoy Mates : D

 

After installing a few ports (for the third time), and then comparing my work to both the MS plans and the Hahn plans (at the Lumberyard site) I see my current plan of action is flawed. It seems that the sills do not follow the plane of the water line but the deck (as Russ pointed out). Thankfully I did not get too far along and will only need to remove a few.  

 

Martin: Where can I find these "Lanford drawings"

 

It seems Model Shipsways and Hahn have a disagreement as to the appearance of the small side window for the Captains Quarters. Hahn shows it as a simple framed window where MS supplies a decorative Britannia piece (that is a mess BTW) Maybe someone with the Mamoli kit can chime in with their take.

[RiverRat]

Yo JP,

 

The Admiralty drawings show no "quarter badge" on the Rattlesnake. The addition of them in the kits seems to be the model designers' choices, not necessarily reflecting actuality. If you wish, when I get home later, I have a photo of the Mamoli bling provided. I won't be using it myself, and haven't decided if I'll have some kind of decorative trim.

 

Ben Lankford I think authored the MS Ratt instruction manual??

 

Brian

[JPett]

Ahoy Brian

 

No need to, your word is good enough for me. Any excuse not to have to use the fittings supplied with my kit is a blessing.

 

How is it that other industries such as  games workshop can supply beautiful cast pieces but with model ships they all look like hell. I would love to just say its Model Shipsways but that would be unfair. I have yet to see a decently cast piece of britannia from any model ship manufacturer.Some are so bad that if they just supplied you with a block of wood it would look more like the actual piece then what is supplied.

 

I will just laugh and move along

[russ]

The Rattlesnake did not have a quarter badge, I am fairly certain. I do not recall seeing it on the original drawings. On a ship this size it was not uncommon to have a badge, but I do not think she had them.

 

Russ

[Martin W]

I'm with Russ & Brian.  I thought the quarter badge looked obtrusive (and its odd angle posed too many challenges to my anti-geometrical mind), so I left it off.

 

And you're absolutely right about that cast britannia stuff -- yecch.

 

As Brian sez, Lankford drew the MS plans (at least his name is on one of the sheets).  Brian, do you have the Admiralty drawings?  Did you get them from the National Maritime Museum? 

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[JPett]

Ahoy Mates

 

After playing with the gun ports today I started looking at maybe doing the deck first. Not the recommended order but my thinking is with the deck in place it might be a little easier for me to align the gun ports and plank the upper half. If you recall I originally sanded my deck flat. "I thought I fixed this but I would hate to find out that I aligned my gun ports up to a misaligned deck. I already know my wales are a 1/16 to low in a few spots. This hasn't caused a problem "yet" but I am sure isn't helping either.

 

I got the idea from one of my other kits (Constructo) that does the deck before any planking. Comments welcome

 

In keeping with the Full Monte theme when I do "do the deck",  I would like to "try" and plank the deck using black construction paper as caulking. Comment welcome here too

[RiverRat]

Brian, do you have the Admiralty drawings?  Did you get them from the National Maritime Museum? 

 

I found 3 images (half-ship profiles at bow and stern, and stern view) somewhere on the internet, maybe msw1. They're snapshots, not scans, of the nmm drawings.

[rdsaplala]

Amazing planking and treenailing work, JP, and the wale looks very nicely done too, don't worry about the littles oopses, they'll barely be seen once all the fittings and rigging are in place

[JPett]

Ahoy Mates

 

Thank you all for the compliments and advise

 

Not much work done in the shipyard over the past few weeks but someone finishing their Syren lite a fire under someone else's ars.

 

I have given up on my attempt to do the decking. It seems that the bulkheads need to be thinned where they support the gunwales. I do not think they are strong enough to withstand this without the support of the outer planking. I did learn that using black construction paper as caulking is not an easy task.

 

As for the sills I am now on mark 3.2. I have decided to try and step them instead of the consistent line they had in the previous two attempts. I am still using my little cannon jig but have thrown overboard the level. I am now using the upper line of the main keel section as a guide (TY Russ). I soaked and pre-bent a length of wood to use for the bow section pieces to eliminate the blocky effect that occurred there on my earlier attempts . You can see in the top view pic the sills now follow the curve of the hull where as before they were straight pieces klinkering up to the bow. The gun ports are also now positioned closer to the angles shown in the plans which is always nice. I am using a piece of my Boxwood gunwale planking to confirm the angle in which the sill is cut into the planking.

Edited July 28, 2013 by JPett

[russ]

The gunport sills should really be measured off the level of the deck at the side. They need to be square to the frames and are not angled or anything to follow the line of the deck.

 

If you can do this while measuring off the profile former, then okay, but I would try to measure off the line of the deck at the side. That is going to be more accurate.

 

Russ

[JPett]

Ahoy Russ

 

Thank you for your response

 

If I am understanding you correctly, that sadly is not what I was doing. I was closer to this with 3.1 and the level.

 

Please confirm that I am correct that the ports sills should be square in their relation to the frames (bulkheads on my build) with their height determined measuring from the deck at each port location.

 

SO: I could use a square placed on the bulkheads to get the angle for the sill and my cannon jig for the height.  

 

Awaiting your response to commence with 3.3.

 

I am so glad I posted  

[popeye the sailor]

looking good so far JP

[RiverRat]

The gunport sills .........need to be square to the frames and are not angled or anything to follow the line of the deck.

Russ

 

The plan drawing above seems to show the open (un-lidded) ports as having sills that parallel the line of the deck. The two forward ports, that have lids, look square (or rectangle).

 

Brian

[russ]

JPett:

Yes, the gunports are square to the bulkheads and you can measure the height from the deck at the side. The sills should be perpendicular to the bulkheads.

 

Brian:

In fact, all the sills are perpendicular to the bulkheads. To what plan drawing do you refer?

 

Russ

[RiverRat]

JPett:

Yes, the gunports are square to the bulkheads and you can measure the height from the deck at the side. The sills should be perpendicular to the bulkheads.

 

Brian:

In fact, all the sills are perpendicular to the bulkheads. To what plan drawing do you refer?

 

Russ

 

I'm referring to Post#318, first image, in this topic.

 

I've seen many models where the sills, top and bottom, were angled to parallel the deck and not square with the vertical sides (horizontal as the waterline), and making a parallelogram shape rather than a square or rectangle. In MSW 1.0, I asked if this was fitting for certain eras or geographical regions, but don't remember that I got a definitive answer. But I've certainly seen ports that didn't have square corners.

[russ]

Brian:

The drawing to which you refer appears to be a kit model plan. I do not know who drew it, what they used for sources etc. In my research, I have seen it done with everything squared up. What you have seen on other models is not necessarily anything to do with how it was actually done. If the builder used the kit plans, that probably does not tell you much of anything about how the ports were actually built. 

 

I would suggest that if you want to do it as shown in the kit plans, go ahead.

 

However, there is not nearly as much sheer in the deck as there is in the actual sheer line of the hull. That is very common. I would say that the ports where you notice the difference more is probably where the sheer of the deck tends to be greatest, ie the ends of the hull. The ports where the deck has little sheer are in the middle of the hull and those do not have lids where the ports in the ends of the hull generally do. That is probably why you see sills of unlidded ports appearing to follow the sheer of the deck.

 

Good luck with your build.

 

Russ

[RiverRat]

Brian:

 In my research, I have seen it done with everything squared up. What you have seen on other models is not necessarily anything to do with how it was actually done. If the builder used the kit plans, that probably does not tell you much of anything about how the ports were actually built. 

Russ

 

Great!!! What sources do you have from your research? Being relatively new at this, pretty much all I have is looking at models and some paintings now and then. It would be great to see some documentation to to clear this up for me. Thanks!

 

Brian

[russ]

Brian:

The National Maritime Museum at Greenwich has a number of late 18th century framing plans that show how this framing was actually done. That is a great collection of primary sources.

 

Among secondary sources, two that I would recommend are Peter Goodwin's Construction and Fitting and David Antscherl's The Fully Framed Model. I do not have them at my elbow this second so I do not have the complete titles. I am sure others might have some titles, but this is really not for this build log. This JPett's story, not ours.

 

Russ

[jml1083]

Hi JPett,

 

Really beautiful work! The treenails are a whole project in their own right. I'm not building the Rattlesnake but I am learning a lot from your build log. Thanks for such detailed logs and photos.

 

 

[augie]

Hi JP!

 

It's been a while.  Hoping everything is ok on your end.

[sport29652]

I'm also anxious to see where you are JP, once I saw your rattlesnake post I got excited. Where are you at.

[Martin W]

Ahoy, JPett -- Same goes for me!  Tell us you're off making sawdust with your Vanda Lay!

 

Martin