Bismarck by Captain Slog – GPM No.182 - 1:200 - CARD - Abandoned

[WackoWolf]

Thank you. I am mostly looking for `1/200 PE stuff for the USS Missouri. Have most of what I need, but am looking for the main turrets guns and anything else that might pop up. Thank you for the link.

[testazyk]

I've been fascinated by this log--incredible work!

[Captain Slog]

Wow, thank you Paul, Chris, Rowan, testazyk for all the nice comments.  Bit embarrassing for me all the comments and discussions going with out me realizing as haven't done a thing on the Bismarck since my last post   .  Been busy doing the card artillery tractor.

But thanks again.

 

Hopefully get some progress done soon.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the compliment. When I finish the model I am working on I plan on taking on the Maine by the firm in Germany. I do not remember there name and the moment but I believe I have learned enough to do it without any mistakes. There are all lot of parts and it was a care package from the clubs back in Chicago.
David B

Wow David, just checked out Maine from Grants link, that is one very detailed kit. Should keep you busy for a while! Look forward to following your progress.

 

 

Joe,

If you search for "HMV card models" you should get plenty of hits. Here's one:

http://www.kartonmodellbau.de/en_GB

Thanks for the link. 

 

Thank you. I am mostly looking for `1/200 PE stuff for the USS Missouri. Have most of what I need, but am looking for the main turrets guns and anything else that might pop up. Thank you for the link.

Joe, GPM in Poland sell the guns in brass and aluminium and some Missouri specific photo etch in 1:200 scale. Just type in Missouri in the search bar.  http://gpm.pl/en . They also do generic handrails etc for some detail. Unfortunately the postage is a killer.  

 

My last order from them has gone missing as past 4 weeks now.  I have ordered from them about 4 times previously and they always took 2 weeks exactly to come so guess this one is lost.  They do not answer e-mails which is a major pain as tried for other reasons in the past without a single response.  

 

Cheers

Slog 

Edited July 7, 2014 by Captain Slog

[WackoWolf]

Slog,

 

    I have bought all the 40mm guns and all the small guns from GPM, took awhile to get my order but I did get the, They don't seem to want to answer email, I have tried emailing them in the past but never got anything back from them. Thank you

[Captain Slog]

Hi Joe,

 

They also do a photo etch set for the Missouri, if its anything like the Bismarck set then minimal compared to whats available for the plastic kits.  You might want to check whats available for them.

 

Good news, just received an e-mail from GPM, apparently the parcel was returned to them as the address written on it wasn't clear.  so gave them full address again. Huzzah another 2 weeks wait won't be so bad knowing it wasn't lost for good.

 

Cheers

Slog 

[src]

Slog,

At least it turned up. I have a car registration from 2 (3?) years ago that is still out in the either.

Looking forward to your next update here.

Sam

[Captain Slog]

Hi,

 

A bit more progress.  In my last progress post away back in April I assembled the hull using the laser cut card forms and decided to infill between the bulkheads to provide more support for the hull skins.

 

Well I got a selection of balsa sheets, strip and blocks in various thicknesses and sizes and as can be seen tried different combo's of shapes along the hull.  Firstly I spent ages fitting each infill perfectly.  This soon drove me nuts and ended up gluing unshaped parts in place knowing I would have lots of sanding later   .

 

This seemed the lesser of two evils and came to the conclusion I hate infilling card hulls as much as planking wood ships.  Here is a few photos of the first pass gross hull sanding.  I took the majority of hull ribs down just short of the forms. The bow will need a crap load more sanding as this was built up and is more or less solid block of balsa.

 

I couldn’t sand to much as I need the finished deck to mark the perimeter so I have a line to sand to. 

First sand photos.

 

 

To prepare the deck I had to first edge glue sheets of 1mm card so I had a large enough surface to glue the deck to.  I just used PVA glue and rubbed the edges together then left with some weights on the join.  The joints are pretty strong and can be handled fine.

 

I rough cut out the deck and then used Elmers spray adhesive to coat the card and then pressed deck down on to this giving it a good rub to ensure it contacted the full card underneath.  I remembered the last time I used Elmers I wasn’t to happy with it and same again.  In future I will try Scotch 3M 77 spray adhesive as this is supposed to be the best according to hard core cardists.

 

 

I will trim the deck to size after at least overnight as several hours later some of the card is still a bit tacky but couldn’t resist placing the deck on the hull to get a feel for the look of it.

 

I also glued up the central prop shaft housing.  I can’t stress how easy and fuss free the laser cut forms slot together perfectly.

 

 

Edge Colouring: A general note of interest on edge colouring.  I have never been satisfied with this; I have tried water colour pencils, water colours, enamel and acrylic paints and for one reason or other each I was never fully satisfied.

 

Well I think my edge colouring prayers have been answered :im Not Worthy: .  On a card forum someone mentioned Faber-Castell PITT Artist pens and since my local Officeworks sold them I bought a set, which contained 3 blacks  but more importantly 5 different warm and cold greys. They also sell them separately. 

 

These are amazing; dry instantly so can’t smudge or smear them and they don’t bleed at all even when I messed around with them on cheap thin printer paper.  As can be seen the greys in the set almost match the hull greys perfectly although saying that they are slightly darker on the edges.

 

I think the range has 64 colours so will check out the reds (for lower hull edges), greens for the ships aircraft (and card vehicle I am working on) and pale blue for the aircraft again.

 

Cheers

Slog

[gjdale]

Great to see son progress Slog. Looking good. Those Pitt Pens look like the answer to your prayers alright. Along similar lines, you might want to try out some Coptic markers, which you'll find in any art supply store. I've no idea if they will be suitable, but the Pitt pens prompted my memory. They come in a really large colour range too.

[Captain Slog]

Hey Slog, did you see Pontos models timber laminate decks for 1-200 Bismarck ?

Hi Brian,

 

Your ears must have been burning. I was cursing you for bringing that model shop ( http://www.bnamodelworld.com/ ) to my attention, so much goodies I was barely able to hold off blowing the credit card on all the photo-etch goodies, thankfully at the time most stuff was out of stock 

 

I wanted the Pontos advanced set but at $385   I can’t justify that.  I did think about just getting bits and pieces separately and also wondered about the wood deck but may cause issues with the superstructures etc as they are designed to fit on the card model although same ship I think there might be minute differences in sizing/positioning which may cause grief.  The cost would allow me to get another card ship so just going to build the Bismarck as is with the accessories I have.

 

I did order some 1:200 scale Kriegsmarines though

 

 

 

Great to see son progress Slog. Looking good. Those Pitt Pens look like the answer to your prayers alright. Along similar lines, you might want to try out some Coptic markers, which you'll find in any art supply store. I've no idea if they will be suitable, but the Pitt pens prompted my memory. They come in a really large colour range too.

Thanks Grant, I will try and check them out.

 

 

You keeping the swastika or painting over it ? I think I will paint mine out as I find that symbol ugly and repulsive.

 

Just my personal opinion mate.

Yeah, just going to leave them on. I believe when the ship broke out to the Atlantic they painted the whole area a light grey with the Swastika still kind of showing through but dulled out. Can't be sure though as can't remember where I saw or read that.

 

Cheers

Slog

[ccoyle]

I used balsa stringers on my build of Modelik's 1/100 scale HMCS Agassiz, and it was a slog, Slog, just as you are experiencing. I hope it proves worth the effort when you get to the hull plating. I tried a couple of brands of art pens at a 'local' (only 50 miles away) craft store, one was Le Plume and can't remember the other brand. Lots of colors to choose from, but both bled, so I have had to stick with acrylics. One source of acrylics that card types might overlook are craft paints, like Ceramcoat. These are cheap, come in a bewildering array of colors, and work fine for paper, even though they use coarser pigments than found in modeling acrylics. Oh, and I can get them at the much more local True Value hardware store (only 20 miles away). I will keep my eyes open for the Pitt markers, because the pens can't be beat for ease of use, that's for sure.

[src]

Slog,

That soda can gives a great idea oh how big she is going to be. Where does everybody find room to display such big builds?

Sam

[dgbot]

I have been experimenting with watercolor so far Winsor&Newton.  i have not tried acrylics.

David B

[Captain Slog]

Great to see son progress Slog. Looking good. Those Pitt Pens look like the answer to your prayers alright. Along similar lines, you might want to try out some Coptic markers, which you'll find in any art supply store. I've no idea if they will be suitable, but the Pitt pens prompted my memory. They come in a really large colour range too.

Hi Grant, I went to Officeworks today to pick up some more PITT pens (see below) and noticed they had Coptic markers.  These initially looked good as they come with a large chisel shaped nib on one side and a sharp pointed nib on the other.  Unfortunately the one I got bleed into the surface when tested on the edges and also showed through the other side on the thick bristol the models are printed on. We won't know these things until we try them. They are also expensive being twice the price of the PITT ones.   

 

 

I used balsa stringers on my build of Modelik's 1/100 scale HMCS Agassiz, and it was a slog, Slog, just as you are experiencing. I hope it proves worth the effort when you get to the hull plating. I tried a couple of brands of art pens at a 'local' (only 50 miles away) craft store, one was Le Plume and can't remember the other brand. Lots of colors to choose from, but both bled, so I have had to stick with acrylics. One source of acrylics that card types might overlook are craft paints, like Ceramcoat. These are cheap, come in a bewildering array of colors, and work fine for paper, even though they use coarser pigments than found in modeling acrylics. Oh, and I can get them at the much more local True Value hardware store (only 20 miles away). I will keep my eyes open for the Pitt markers, because the pens can't be beat for ease of use, that's for sure.

Hi Chris, the thin balsa stringers weren't too bad (2.5 - 3mm) but the 8mm ones and especially the slabs I put in are hard going.  I think I may just stick with thin card or balsa stringers in the future as I believe just covering the rib edges with strips of paper will just be to difficult for me.

 

With regards to the PITT pens I think it was Don Boose (spelling?) from Papermodellers that mentioned them in which case they should be available in the US.  Maybe on-line art stores will stock them.  I have used Tamiya acrylics up until now and get decent results but I need to keep thinning and/or shaking the bottle as after a few minutes the paint starts to thicken to the point it starts dragging and clumping on the edges so becomes time consuming.

 

I have wondered about finding a home decor paint store who can scan colours (take the model down) and mix up home painting acrylic but not sure how this type of paint will work on model card/paper?

 

I got a few more colours of pens today and scored 2 out of 3 shots.  The brown and green match pretty well but the blue is well off.

 

 

Slog,

That soda can gives a great idea oh how big she is going to be. Where does everybody find room to display such big builds?

Sam

Hi Sam, never realised the 'product placement' shot when I took the photos LOL.  My Bismarck lives on top of the computer desk hutch for the moment.  Currently live in a small house and wouldn't be able to display a finished model but hopefully by the time I finish the Bismarck our new place should be built with a whole modelling room to myself.

 

 

I have been experimenting with watercolor so far Winsor&Newton.  i have not tried acrylics.

David B

Hi David, I need to try artists oils and watercolours but not sure how to use them has prevented me until now.  Do you use them from the tube, mix with water or solvent etc so many questions about alternatives.  

 

Cheers

Slog

[CaptainSteve]

Great work, Slog. She's taking shape nicely.

Edited September 14, 2014 by CaptainSteve

[gjdale]

Slog - sorry for the bum steer on the Coptic markers, but good to know they have at least been tested now.

 

On paints, you should be able to use acrylic paints, like Winsor and Newton. Buy them in tubes and thin with water (ie squeeze some out and drag some water into it on the palette). Using paints in this way, you can mix your colours to get an exact match, and thinned to your desired consistency. If you're not sure how to use something, it's always worth checking out You tube - I invariably find a few videos of people demonstrating exactly what I'm after. It might not be in our field of modelling, but the techniques are generally the same. Painting is one are where there are plenty of video tutorials. Don't ask me how I know!

Edited September 14, 2014 by gjdale

[ccoyle]

My local paint store will do the scan-and-match thing, but if I remember correctly, they require the purchase of least a pint can of the resulting paint, which of course would last a card modeler several lifetimes.

[dgbot]

I tried markers and then went to watercolor.  I have seen water color paints used according to their pigment.  Winsor & Newton water color was available at the local Hobby Lobby.  So far I have been happy but it does take a very light touch.  What i have done is put a l little in a receptacle and added water as needed.   I have not tried acrylics but if I did would probably experiment with the finer pigments first eve if they cost a little more.

David B

[Captain Slog]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the comments guys. 

 

A small bit of progress.  I trimmed the decks to size and coloured the edges and then placed and aligned them on the deck to mark the perimeter for sanding.  Unfortunately pretty squally here at the moment so can’t get out to sand.

 

 

As I don’t want to jump around to much with the build decided to do the deck openings.  These consist of top hatch surround and the stair well.  Pretty straight forward with the cutting out and edge colouring of the parts reading for scoring the bends and gluing up.

 

 

Forming the hatch surround with the bends was simple enough but trying to hold them to glue was a struggle. Ended up forming a jig to squeeze the sides together in place then placed the glue into the inside edges with a needle held in the pin vice.

 

 

The deck has several holes marked out that need cutting out and the hatch and stair well drop in to this.  I won’t glue any down yet until the deck is fixed to the hull.  There are a couple I might redo as not fully happy with them but will see as the AOTS show a canvas covered frame work over the hatch.  So if I can scratch these out of 0.2mm wire and tissue successfully they will be more or less covered up anyway.

 

Cheers

Slog 

[GuntherMT]

The fact that this fantastic and huge model is being made out of paper just continues to amaze me.  There is no way I'd complete something like this without managing to wreck it completely with my clumsy ham-fists.

[Captain Slog]

Its a big project building this ship in 1-200 scale, Slog. What photo etch are you planning to use ?

Hi Brian, just using what I have previously purchased as shown on page 1 of the log.  I may buy bits and pieces as I get to them but will see how I go with that for now.

 

 

The fact that this fantastic and huge model is being made out of paper just continues to amaze me.  There is no way I'd complete something like this without managing to wreck it completely with my clumsy ham-fists.

Hi Brian (Gunther) these 1:200 battleships are certainly big, but whilst building the models of them you forget what monsters they were in real life until you have a reference to see them against.  The scale figure shows how big they are and for me at least it was a real wow! moment.

 

 

The figures in the photos above and below are 1:200 scale Kreigsmarines and got 50 odd in a pack (there are 4 different packs available).  They are pretty detailed but very limited poses and unfortunately the regular crew are in groups of 3 being joined at the shoulders and feet although some careful slicing should be able to separate them and get at least one of the 3 free.

 

I measured them and the figures are 9mm high giving a full size of 1.8m or just under 5’11” in the old money which is pretty good and they have depth also.  Going to have to primer them though as Tamiya acrylics did not want to stick to them even after scrubbing them with soapy water and an old toothbrush.

 

 

Haven’t progressed much but was experimenting with bits and pieces.  I mentioned previously I wanted to make the portholes instead of leaving the printed detail and obtained 1.6mm, 1.8mm and 2mm brass photo etch ones from GPM in Poland.

 

The problem was how to punch out the paper portholes to replace with brass.  I had a 2mm punch but the cutting edge is on the ‘inside’ which means the paper round the outside of the cut gets compressed down.  I need a punch with the cutting edge on the ‘outside' to leave a clean cut if that makes sense.

 

I went to the local Hobby shop and managed to get 1.6mm and 2mm brass tube and then used a 2mm drill bit to bevel the inside edges.  This was done by hand and it shaved the thin wall brass very quickly.  I then cut the tube to small lengths and tapped them down on scrap model paper and they left a very clean cut hole.

 

The photo etch brass portholes where a perfect flush fit into the punched holes.  The 1.6mm and 2mm trials are on the left and right respectively.  The 2mm is a perfect match for the printed hull portholes.

 

I would imagine I will have to keep ‘sharpening’ the tubes quite regularly as well as making new ones (the tube bent quite easily when tapping the ends) but worth the effort for clean cut holes.

 

Better get back to hull sanding

 

Cheers

Slog

[src]

Slog,

This build continues to amaze me.

Have you considered stainless steel tube for your punch? Just this last week at work we had to make a bunch of rounds and squares (100's!) out of .010 acetate. We started with brass and found the same thing you did, they have to be constantly re-sharpened. Stainless was harder to sharpen but lasted longer and didnt bend as easy. One of the more industrious fabricators filled all but the last 1" of his punch with an epoxy we use gallons of, that helped to bring the bending down to almost nothing. If you stay with brass most of those hobby tubes have a matching tube that will sleeve either on the inside or the outside, it should be an easy thing to solder in a sleeve to stiffen up your punch.

Just a thought.

Sam

[Captain Slog]

Thank you for all the likes, really encouraging.

 

Slog,

This build continues to amaze me.

Have you considered stainless steel tube for your punch? Just this last week at work we had to make a bunch of rounds and squares (100's!) out of .010 acetate. We started with brass and found the same thing you did, they have to be constantly re-sharpened. Stainless was harder to sharpen but lasted longer and didnt bend as easy. One of the more industrious fabricators filled all but the last 1" of his punch with an epoxy we use gallons of, that helped to bring the bending down to almost nothing. If you stay with brass most of those hobby tubes have a matching tube that will sleeve either on the inside or the outside, it should be an easy thing to solder in a sleeve to stiffen up your punch.

Just a thought.

Sam

 

Thanks Sam, card models are certainly interesting.

 

The local hobby store was quite limited in what they had metal stock wise. Will stick with the brass as I have it now and know if it works, the sharpening doesn’t take long and can do it easily enough just using my fingers.

 

Great idea about slipping in a strenghener,   I had a look and 0.8mm slips into the hole perfectly so will try that and leave it a few millimeters short of the tip so I can still resharpen it. The tube is self-centering for sharpening which I think I would lose with the solid rod in the centre.  Will report how it works out.

 

 

 

Okay, finished sanding and have cut out the lower hull skins ready for fitting.  I think this must be the most difficult part of a card ship and not looking forward to it really.  Worst comes to worst I could fill, sand and re-spray but would prefer not to do this.

 

Couple of points, I hate free hand cutting and cutting petals for forming  round curves.  Each panel overlaps the preceding panel which I don’t like as there will be strips of double thickness paper ridges.  I was going to try and fit and trim the panels flush but after playing around with the first few panels I decided this is beyond me and will fit them as is.

 

Going to try some different edge colouring now before forming and gluing the skins.  The PITT pen is to red and the Tamiya hull red is to brown (in fact it is brown).  I have a set of water colour pencils which I will try and a cheap set of watercolours (the solid block type) also.  I haven’t had much success with these in the past but will give them another go.

 

 

Cheers

Slog

[WackoWolf]

You got your work cut out for you that is for sure. Keep the updates and pictures coming, and Thank you for sharing this build.

[src]

Slog,

How thick are the lower skins? Can you do the wall paper hangers trick and slice through both? Then would your parts lay flat? or will you end up with a gap from the blade thickness?

Sam

[Captain Slog]

You got your work cut out for you that is for sure. Keep the updates and pictures coming, and Thank you for sharing this build.

Hi Joe, I certainly have and as expected the hardest part has bitten me, more of which further down.

 

Slog,

How thick are the lower skins? Can you do the wall paper hangers trick and slice through both? Then would your parts lay flat? or will you end up with a gap from the blade thickness?

Sam

Hi Sam, the model is printed on thick Bristol type paper and measures around 0.2mm which although doesn’t sound much does form a noticeable ridge.  I was going to try the paper hangers trick you mentioned but it would mean cutting them whilst formed round the hull as the edge relationship wouldn’t be the same if pressed flat out.  I decide cutting consistently round the hull wasn’t in my skill set and would have lived with the ridges.

 

Unfortunately I encountered worse problems which have meant a whole rethink.

 

I Started at the bow as instructed since the over lapping works from front to back and 1^st panel went on fine.  I decided to form the front edge progressively, gluing in a tab at a time as found fumbling about trying to form the bulge with the petals too difficult off the model.

 

 

First 7 panels out of 21.  Up to panel 6 I was happy enough, yeah sure a bit bumped and bashed round the very bottom edge but liveable, being my first hull skinning.   Then the panels started getting bigger and gluing up was becoming a problem and started rushing and yes panel 7 got pushed between the balsa stringers giving the dreaded sunken ‘starved cow’ effect.

 

 

Then it totally went pear shaped with panel 8, which I couldn’t bear to show in photos.  Basically again the large panels gluing up was a problem and totally messed up the skin with creases and sunken areas etc.  I decided to call it a day after that.

 

I need to see what glues others are using and how they glue the panels on.  I use white wood workers PVA exclusively so far and have tried gluing on one edge at time as well as gluing whole panels at a time but the bigger panels need speed and that gets sloppy.

 

Moving on, I have decided to finish the skins, seal with a matt varnish and then fill with auto-body filler, sand and spray (probably with red oxide auto paint).  Just had a look up above the computer where it sits and the skins aren’t to bad, I mean I sorted the edge colouring, the panels are free from glue marks, the sunken bashed and dented skins are on the underside…then see the creases on panel 8 aaarrrgggghhhhhhhhhh.

Cheers

Slog

[catopower]

Hi Slog,

 

I'm sure you'll find a way around that panel 8 issue. Your build looks great. I've been working on my little cutter model and never before considered modeling a 20th century steel hull ship. I may have to consider it now, seeing your build. I really like your model a lot and I'll be watching for your updates.

 

Clare

[gjdale]

Hi Slog,

 

Sounds like you're having an "interesting" time there! I'll bet the air is still a nice shade of blue I know absolutely nothing about card modelling, but if you're having issues with PVA, have you considered using something like UHU glue sticks? I was just thinking that they might be a bit easier to work with for those larger panels. You might also drop a PM to Chris Coyle seeking advice - he seems to be a bit of a "guru" on card modelling.

 

Hope you overcome this temporary setback soon - your model is looking excellent so far.

[Captain Slog]

Hi Slog,

 

I'm sure you'll find a way around that panel 8 issue. Your build looks great. I've been working on my little cutter model and never before considered modeling a 20th century steel hull ship. I may have to consider it now, seeing your build. I really like your model a lot and I'll be watching for your updates.

 

Clare

Hi Clare, thanks for kind comments.  I have been following your Alert and its coming along nicely.  Very clean, the printed deck also looks great.  Personally I think the Bismarck deck is too dark compared to other ships.  I think card models lend themselves to steel ships very well.

 

Hi Slog,

 

Sounds like you're having an "interesting" time there! I'll bet the air is still a nice shade of blue I know absolutely nothing about card modelling, but if you're having issues with PVA, have you considered using something like UHU glue sticks? I was just thinking that they might be a bit easier to work with for those larger panels. You might also drop a PM to Chris Coyle seeking advice - he seems to be a bit of a "guru" on card modelling.

 

Hope you overcome this temporary setback soon - your model is looking excellent so far.

Hi Grant, plenty of swearing, followed by gnashing of teeth, wailing and weeping and finally slumped down dejectedly.    To add insult to injury, I dropped the 3 piece decks and put a couple of dents in one of them  . Although not to bad and won't really be noticable once all the other bits and bobs are on.

 

 Funny, but after I submitted my last post I thought “<beep> it!” and went back and smashed in the remaining panels.  Funny but knowing I had a lot of fixing work ahead of me took the pressure off and knocked them out easier than the previous ones. I even went back to the front and folded in the petals perfectly closing the bulge at the bow.

 

 

I tried a glue stick previously away back without success but who knows, I thought that about watercolours for the edge colouring and that worked out well so might revisit that.  I was going to wait for Chris, MSW’s resident card guru, to drop by with some advice on hull skin fixing in general as must be an easier way.  The PVA usually works great but the large panels were drying out to quickly before fixing and then of course you use more to keep one side ‘wet’ whilst applying the other side and then start rushing 

 

Okay here is the latest photo.  I have already started to varnish the first 7 panels.  I know, from the photo it doesn’t look to bad but there are a few issues which doesn’t really show on the pic below…plus I was being selective on the angle 

 

 

There are a few lessons learned here.  Primarily I think I may have wasted my time with all the balsa in-fills which I believe caused more problems than I expected them to prevent.  I think either leave them off altogether or fully fill in between the bulkheads.

 

One thing I did notice was the designer got the forms and skins spot on and if it wasn’t for my lack of skill would have went together seamlessly. Kudos.

 

I might work on some of the other parts for a break.

 

Cheers

Slog

[gjdale]

Looks pretty good from here Slog!

[src]

Slog,

Looking good from here.

I have never built a card model before and it looks like this comment is too late for the hull but maybe something for the future. Is part if the glue drying too fast because the paper is absorbing moisture? Is it possible to roll/brush a thin coat of pva as a primer let it dry and then re-glue and install?

Just thinking out loud here.

Sam