The Bitumen Experiment

[ChrisLBren]

Hi Group,

 

I've been playing around with my typical finish -3 Coats Pure Tung Oil (first one cut 50 percent by mineral spirits) and I've added Bitumen to the top coat and here are the results - thanks to Dimitry on the Russian forums for giving me this tip to age wood.  No simulated caulking added here - just wood sanded to 600 and then finish applied

 

This is the finish I will apply to my next build - La Jacinthe in 1/36th.  Ive added some photos to compare this new technique to my usual on Confederacy.  

 

Your thoughts as always are appreciated,

Chris

 

 

Edited September 12, 2014 by ChrisLBren

[NMBROOK]

That looks great Chris Alex has a post on there describing the technique he uses but the translator makes it almost comical to read As well as 'ageing' it does seem to bring detail out,similarly to a wash in plastic model building.I assume you are referring to Mr Shevelev,the ageing on his 74 looks the business.Incidentally his 74 took a silver at Haydock Park IMBS in the UK this summer(second only to another Russian entry)

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

The Russians introduced ourselves to the ‘’bitume de judée’’.  The first time I saw it was on the French forum. Alex talked about his receipe containing the following ingredients.

 

Beeswax: Slows drying time, soften the color  and more transparent.  Mixing it with the

               bitumen    allows beewax molecules to bind  and make the asphalt more neutral

paraffin: help beewax or could be white wax candle

asphalt:   Was used by the egyptians for embalming   Oil soluble

pine resin:  Gives plastic properties  and can form a varnish if mixed with alchool

natural soap:  probably for the oils in the soap

turpentine:  Fluidity  and solubility of the mix

siccative:   shorter drying time, max 10% of total mix.

 

An easier version can effectively be done by mixing tung oil and bitumen. Depending of the bitumen solubility, an agent can be added to help to incorporate with tung oil. As long as bitumen is not applied in a too thick coat, there will be no problem to dry.

 

On the picture, concentrating on the first  3 tops ones, bare wood, tung oil, bitumen. Another way to apply it is with beewax + turpentine odorless to give it some flexibility and ease in application and add bitumen and then some polishing is needed (but this method is better suited for wood cabinet).  Wax is easy to apply on large surface. but when too many corners, it is a less interesting option.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Gaetan Bordeleau

[JerseyCity Frankie]

Just out of curiosity, what commercial product were you using for the Bitumen? Is it even available commercially?

[mitchel]

I assume you are referring to Mr Shevelev,the ageing on his 74 looks the business.Incidentally his 74 took a silver at Haydock Park IMBS in the UK this summer(second only to another Russian entry)

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

 

I live near Haydock and I forgot about this show. Such a pity. I know you posted the date earlier in the year here.

Do you know of any pictures that were taken?

[ChrisLBren]

Mitchel - this thread is about finishes not shows.  JerseyCity - i bought this Bitumen thru Ebay UK -not sure if its avail in the US. Gaetan your expert advice/input is always appreciated !

 

And Nigel - yes you are spot on -  Dimitry's  74 model and his advice are my influence on this finish. The Bitumen works as a wash.   Just a few kinks to work out - but I'm close.....

[NMBROOK]

What I did glean from Alex was that,other than the fact he uses a waterbased stain to make the shades of pear much more uniform(the orange hue on Cumberland)prior to applying anything else,he applies beeswax first before using the Bitumen solution.Applying the solution without reducing the absorbency of the Pear can result in a very patchy finish.This is similar to what you are doing Chris by applying two coats of Tung oil before adding the bitumen.I wish you all the best at getting this process 'nailed' Chris,the effect is well worth it

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

 

P.S.Mitchel,the only photos I have seen are of the Russian 'road trip' ,lots of pictures of sights,not so many of the models.

[ChrisLBren]

Thanks Nigel - to get on my soap box - I feel that finish and carvings make a ship model.  The one thing i learned very well on Confederacy - is to thin your first coat of oil 50/50 with spirits which will set you up for a uniform finish (as oil does not penetrate a hard wood like Pear uniformly).  I learned this thru trial and error.   There are many things I'd love to do over with Confederacy (one being not relying on Chucks resin carvings for the human figures on my stern !) - but thats another story - (a #11 Exacto and some courage - anyone can carve with enough persistence.) 

 

I'm formulating a very distinct approach on the next model - thats why I've picked a simple but beautiful schooner as a test bed for my ideas.  As a novice oil painter - a Sepia wash actually might do the same thing as Bitumen - its worth a test to compare the results.

 

Stay tuned,

Chris

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Chris, I would not  do carving with  an exacto, in fact I do not use anymore this kind of blade.

I use almost exclusively sclalpel 5A with a handle, blue plastic covered and blade 11.

When you use scalpel, you find that an exacto does not cut.

 

Peaple say that scalpel blades breaks too easily. In fact, it is true, but when you  learn that this kind of blade is not made to be use in torsion, then you rarely breaks it.

 

Also, carving is a strange world, hand are made to do carving and feel shapes. Of course you need to practice, but when you try an you see what you can achieve, then a little miracle happens, you beleive that you can do it, and then you carve it.

[ChrisLBren]

Thanks for the advice Gaetan - I used an Exacto #11 for all of these carvings on the quarter galleries - you are a master - ill give your blades a try on the next build which will have much less carving than this one.  

[mitchel]

Mitchel - this thread is about finishes not shows.  

Sorry I asked. I will be sure to post in the right thread next time.

[ChrisLBren]

No worries Mitchel - this thread somehow turned into a carving post !  Take care,

Chris

[mtaylor]

So are you going with the bitumen, Chris???? (pushes back on topic  )

[NMBROOK]

I shall ask the million dollar question Chris Once you have this technique sussed,do you not fancy using it on your Confederacy?In theory as your model is finished in Tung oil already,it would be an ideal candidate.

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

[ChrisLBren]

Ha! - yes I will use Bitumen - but not on this build - I just want to finally finish Confederacy after almost 5 years in !

[dgbot]

You have piqued my interest and curiosity. This should prove to be a very nice build with a lot to learn and to have fun. But can you by bitumen here in the states and is there an alternative?

David B

[normanh]

Guys - I wouldnt use bitumen if I was you its simply not uv stable, I realise its in small amouts but the thinner the bitumen film the shorter life it will have. Bitumen needs to be protected from surface oxidation. In commercial applications this can be very relevant. I am a former bitumen chemist with a stack of text on the subject based on data published by Shell. In a thin film application it can reduce to dust with light esposure, grades are usually a straight PEN grade typically represented by the numbers 25 to 300 or an oxidised Grade based on two numbers such as 95/25 these numbers relfect the test reults in simple mechincal tests used in industry.

 

Norman

[dgbot]

What would you advise as a substitute?

David B

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

Norman,

 

I am surely not an expert about bitumen, but here is how I use it. About UV stability, I do not think that it does matter simply because models are intended to see the sun. The key is the quantity, effectively, too small quantity, it will not be enough apparent and too thick it will not dry. Usually bitumen is applied mainly on the hull, on large surface.  Bee wax is added in the mixture, so oxidation, I guess, is  not acting that much.

Bee wax has been used for centuries for wood cabinetry. In this case bitumen is added to this mixture to simulate time aging and I like the effect.

[normanh]

Just passing on my knowledge and experience, bitumen is a wonderful substance but needs to be used with care and can vary enormously depending on source. I can sugest no alternatives. I have no experience of mixing with beeswax, paraffin wax yes.

 

Norman

[Landlubber Mike]

Chris, thanks very much for sharing your info on this post.  I agree 100% that what distinguishes the really amazing models out there from the very good is the finish and decorations (at least that's my relatively novice opinion).  I'm testing out some of these techniques on my Pegasus and Lyme using stains and oils for woods, and plan to test out undercoats/washes/dry-brushing highlights and lowlights onto the decorative pieces - eventually, I'll try carving.  I saw that folks in Europe were using bitumen, and I've always been curious as to what it is, how it is applied, etc.

 

Hope you're getting some sleep these days.  My twins are a year and a half now, and I feel like we've finally turned the corner.

[wq3296]

Greetings Chris,

 

With all due respect, I think the finish process you described is a lot of work and, in my opinion, not worth the effort. Painting departments in a Home Depot, Lowe's, Ace, hobby shops, etc. would have any number of finishes that look exactly like yours which can be applied in one go. I just don't understand why builders go through such machinations to reinvent a finish that paint companies have already perfected for our use. Granted, in other countries availability of materials may not be as it is here in the USA. If that is the case, builders have no other choice than to mix up their own concoctions. Other than that, mixing up special stuff seems to be a waste of time.

 

wq3296 

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

wq3296,  experimentation with bitumen, let you see with your own eyes finishes that general products cannot even dream to come close to imitate.

[wq3296]

Doubtful.  

 

wq3296 

[ChrisLBren]

Why don't you post a photo of your finish here using your products - so we can have a look at the results rather than just simply being dismissive of others? We'd love to see some photos.

Chris

[Gaetan Bordeleau]

W..

 

I did experiments with bitumen and i will try to explain what I observed. The main reason to use it is for properties  to make the wood look like older, to give more aging to the wood. This cannot be compare to paint because it does not cover completely. It would be more on the side of dyes. One of the advantage of this powder, is depending of the amount  you add, you will get different results. Asphalt can be mixed with many components depending of the look we want to produce.

 

Beeswax  Slows drying time, soften the color  and more transparent.  Mixing it with the

               bitumen    allows beewax molecules to bind  and make the asphalt more neutral

paraffin: help beewax or could be white wax candle

asphalt:   Was used by the egyptiens for embalming   Oil suluble

 

pine resin:  Gives plastic properties  and can form a varnish if mixed with alcool

natural soap:  probably for the oils in the soap

turpentine:  Fluidity  and solubility of the mix

siccative:   shorter drying time, max 10% of total mix.

 

 

My preference is to mix it with tung oil, that I prefer to other oils. When dry, this oil does not produce a shiny finish which is particuliary visible when you use a flash on the camera. At first, I used only tung oil which gives a look of 50 years in aging the wood. Later I did experiment by adding asphalt.

 

In small quantities, it will act as a dye but  clearer, not as dark as a dye can go. In the mixing, when you exceed his property of absorption by dilution, asphalt  powder will precipitate in the bottom  of the container and if you use this mix, it will produce on the wood a general finish plus different spots which can look like dirt caused by time.

 

I remember the first time I saw the utilisation of bitumen. It was on a 74 gun ship made by A French named Fichant. By using bitumen, he made his model look like 150 years older than it really was.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Gaetan Bordeleau

[CaptainSteve]

As an extremely curious total novice, may I ask Gaetan and/or Chris what ratios you would recommend ??

For example, how much bitumen powder would you add to 100ml of Tung Oil ??

[wq3296]

Greetings Chris,

 

Go to any store with a paint department and take a look at the stain samples. That's what I use. Don't be so defensive - I'm simply expressing an opinion.

 

wq3296

[ChrisLBren]

No pics of your finish/model wq3296?  

 

Great post Gaetan - thanks for the scientific info - I know the Fichant's model - its gorgeous and looks 200 years old.  

 

As to the mix Steve - there are different ways to apply it Gaeten mixes his with Tung Oil.  I'm sure he can help you with the ratios.

 

I learned from  Dimitry Shevelev  mix Bitumen patina 50/50 with mineral spirits and apply to finished and fully cured pure Tung Oil (at least two coats) - it sort of acts like a wash in oil painting - and wipe off the excess.  

 

Here's an example of his work (i think he learned this technique from Fichant.

 

http://www.shipmodels.com.ua/eng/models/elite/74_gun_ship/

 

Hope this helps,

Chris

[jud]

Be hard to beat the looks of that 74.

jud