Louie da fly

Nice. Steven

Nice work on the arrows. Very precise. You might like to do a picture of "a pelican in her piety" (do a google image search). It was believed in the middle ages that pelicans stabbed themselves in the breast and fed their chicks on their own life's blood - this being a reference to the sacrifice of Christ. See http://www.sacred-texts.com/lcr/fsca/fsca41.htm And a lot of pelicans shown "in their piety" don't look much like pelicans at all . . . Whether people in England (particularly mariners) in Queen Elizabeth I's time knew what a pelican looked like is another question. Steven

The Great Britain display is very good - they have very good explanatory stuff, and they have allocated various parts of the ship to different periods in her history - for example, below decks has been reconstructed as (very cramped and basic) berthing for her time transporting low-income emigrants to Australia (after she'd been converted to pure sail - she couldn't carry enough coal economically enough for trips longer than the Atlantic passage). The engines and the screw propeller are very worth a look, as well. You'll probably get to see the reconstruction of Cabot's Matthew of 1407, as well. I think she does day trips up and down the river. And while you're in Bristol, make sure you don't miss Brunel's amazing Clifton Suspension Bridge (high enough for a sailing warship to pass under). I'd forgotten it was there, and only caught a brief glimpse of it as we left in the bus. I hadn't realised how far inland Bristol is, for a major port. It's on the Avon river, not on the coast, and the river vanishes at low tide, leaving mudbanks and stranding vessels. Steven

That's a beautiful rendition of a beautiful ship, Pat. What she reminds me of is Brunel's magnificent Great Britain, which it was my privilege to visit when I was in the UK. Looking forward to further progress. Steven

Very interesting. As Young Frankenstein said "IT - COULD - WORK!!! Steven

If the decision was to proceed under sail alone (which would give the oarsmen a rest), I expect the oars would be brought inboard. That's a whole subject in itself, which I worked out a solution to (it's in an earlier page of this thread), but I have no idea whether it's what was done at the time. Certainly there are pictures of Renaissance galleys with all the oars at rest, locked at a low angle above the horizontal. There are references to ships rowing and sailing at the same time, both in ancient and Renaissance sources (though unfortunately not in Byzantine sources, as far as I'm aware). Above a certain strength of wind, the tendency would be to make for port - in a hurry. There are any number of references to Byzantine (and Arab) fleets being completely wiped out by storms. I've just been re-reading The Jason Voyage by Tim Severin, the record of building a twenty-oared reconstruction (a penteconter was too expensive) of the Argo and rowing/sailing her from the Greek mainland to southern Russia. Fascinating stuff, and the oarsmen certainly welcomed a break from the eternal rowing. Both of the steering oars broke twice on the voyage, and the trip through the Bosphorus against the south-flowing current from the Black Sea was a real test. And they had blisters on their hands all the time. They'd burst, form scabs, and then new blisters would form. Not for me, I'm afraid. Steven

Dick, you probably have the pictures already, but I just came across this site, which has very good quality photos of the San Marco mosaics. One from San Marco that doesn't appear on that site is below - a similar stern structure to those of the Cantigas, but not exactly the same - perhaps understandable, as it is Venetian, not Spanish. I know there's at least one other in San Marco, but I haven't yet been able to locate it on the net. However, my lovely wife visited Venice the year before last and brought back a wonderful book of the glories of San Marco. If I can just work out where I put it . . . Steven

Oh, and regarding my quandary over whether to make the dromon single or two-masted, I think I've been convinced to go for two by this (admittedly 14th century) picture of a two-masted lateener sailing goose-winged. Really the only way I can see a dromon could sail without heeling over too much (10 degrees) for stability is to sail directly before the wind - and goose-winged not only equalises the forces from port and starboard, but it looks so cool! Steven

Thanks, Pat. Yes, they now look a lot more like the ones in the 11th century Byzantine representation at the top of this page. Steven

Sounds as cunning as a very cunning thing. Thought you might like this one, also from the Cantigas, which shows arrows sticking out of the mystery structure. Does this mean it was particularly solid, or would arrows stick like this into an awning anyway? This is believed to date from the 1270s to 1280s. Steven

I've added the beam shelf for the primne or poop deck. And I've made 8 of the 50 oars I need for the lower bank - note, the inboard end will be hidden, and supported by a bracket of my own cunning design. On the left is the first oar I made, then a blank for the new improved version, and finally a completed oar. Only 42 to go! On re-visiting the original mediaeval illustrations I came to the conclusion that the upper bank's blades were the wrong shape and after a lot of soul-searching I decided that I couldn't live with that, and I had to change them. Rather than make a whole new set of oars I built them up with home-made filler (using sawdust from the same wood the oars were made of) and then carved and sanded to the correct shape. Steven

Has anybody else seen this? https://www.livescience.com/53744-photos-medieval-dutch-shipwreck.html It was discovered in 2012 and (I think) raised in 2016, but I never saw it. How did I manage to miss it? So, we have another cog to study and learn from. Very exciting. Steven

This picture (also from the Cantigas) has more detail and may help decide what they are and how they're made. The masts are interesting, too. And this ship has a hatch in the side. My feeling is that these structures originated as protection for the steering oars (in case of collisions etc) - note that the "wings" still seem to be there - but may have evolved into something quite different. Steven

Very impressed with the way you made the gunport frames so they're all exactly the same, and avoiding the method of building with "sticks". And the way you installed them is brilliant, as well. So simple and obvious once you've seen it done, but first someone has to think of it . . . Steven

No, sorry - this has derailed the thread somewhat. I'll get back into my box now. Steven

I believe the last picture shows the planked timber housings for steering oars - at least that's how I interpret them. I'm going to base the steering housings for my own build on this picture. The Cantigas ships aren't the only ones with weird structures at the stern. There are a plethora of weird and wonderful stern constructions on Mediterranean ships in and about the 13th century. Heaven only knows what they were, how they were built, or what they did . . . By the way, I have serious doubts about the "hulc" theory - the original proposition is based on a single representation on the seal of the town of Hulkesmouthe which describes as a "hulc" a ship with these funny curved planks, plus a couple of rather small vessels in the archaeological record which appear to be built of planks curved like a basket or a barrel, and could be interpreted as being the physical manifestation of the ship on the seal. (see http://www.machuproject.eu/machu_cms/VoC/VoC_Wreck_View.php?wreck_id=454&lang=EN for an example) But the hulk/hulc was an ocean-going vessel by all accounts (it apparently replaced the cog) and I seriously doubt if the ships discovered would have survived well at sea. It seems to me that the Cantigas ships, those on the seal, and several others I'm aware of (e.g. the ship carrying St Louis to his crusade) may simply be an attempt to represent planking such as is found on the Viking longships - which also curves up at bow and stern, but misinterpreting the structure itself (the artists wouldn't be nautical types and simply drew what they thought was there from a brief look at a bunch of ships in harbour). Not enough, in my view, to base a whole academic theory on. I just think the proponent of the "hulc" theory has leapt to a conclusion on far too little information - that the word hulc is used to describe the ship on the seal because of the planking shown - rather than (as I believe more likely) that it's simply being used as a generic word for "ship". Not that I know what a hulc/hulk actually was - perhaps it was the ship which appears in the early 15th century with the same hull shape as the carrack, but with only a single mast - a sort of proto-carrack? Perhaps a hulc wasn't a particular type of ship at all, just a word that came into use to describe ships in general.There's just far too little information out there. Steven

A very good project, Dick. A very interesting time for nautical design - I wish I could work out how the sterns of some of these ships worked, particularly the ones of the Cantigas of Santa Maria. I should perhaps clarify that I meant ships of the crusading period (generally 1096 to 1291, between the crusaders gaining and losing the Holy Land). I'd actually be surprised if there were such things as crusader ships - it's far more likely that the ships the crusaders travelled in were provided (at a good profit) by the Italian republics, particularly Genoa and Venice. Certainly this was the case with the Fourth Crusade, and I expect with many, if not all, of the others. Steven

I've really enjoyed following this build. It's been a real educational experience, and the quality of both your research and your modelling is of the highest. I hope a book eventuates - it's a worthy topic.

Yes - for a relatively short period (a few decades) before they thought of piercing the sides for artillery. Though "railing pieces" (or swivel guns) stayed in use a lot longer (several were found on the Mary Rose and they were still in use as late as the Endeavour, which had a dozen of them), as far as I know they usually weren't mounted on the gunwales, as they'd get in the way of the bigger calibre guns. Steven

After a few months in the water it would probably be supporting a fine growth of underwater weed - particularly if (as I suppose) it's the Golden Hind sailing into tropical waters. But I don't think that would be very pleasant to look at - I agree with Druxey - do what you want to do. Steven

Perhaps to make them easier to find in dark/overcast/mist? Steven

I agree with Druxey and Carl. There's a doctoral thesis in the TAMU records online which consists of a speculative computer reconstruction of a dromon which is certainly no better nor better researched than your own model. I think if you showed this to a knowledgeable nautical academic, he/she could not fail to be impressed with the breadth and depth of research you've undertaken in constructing this model - as I am. Of course, there's a good chance that the Black Sea discoveries will prove some of your conclusions incorrect. This is always the case in research, and doesn't invalidate your work in any way. I'm in the same boat (sorry!). One part of me is dreading the discovery of a complete dromon, with my own model only half completed. The other part of me is looking forward to it with great excitement. Steven PS: I think this era is exactly the time to be calling them gunwales - this is when they first attached guns to the upper wale, so what could be more appropriate?

We'd probably say "freehand". It's looking very good, Patrick.

Yes, and he's about a head taller than everyone else - the Arab chronicler Ibn Fadlan described them as "tall as date palms". Steven

* Fixed now. All photos the right way up. Sorry for any neck injuries as people craned to see them. Steven