trippwj

2 hours ago, glbarlow said:

good thing, it's subject to copyright laws.

I somehow doubt that a 337 year old British manuscript is under copyright in the US, but "Fair Use" should protect me!

After nearly 8 years of occassional search in various archives and libraries for a digital copy, I have finally been able to locate a PDF version of the subject treatise from about 1685 by Edward Battine.  For those interested in the evolution of ship building and design this would be a nice addition to the collection.

I was able to secure 7 of the 14 I asked about.  Such a wonderful collection on a broad array of subject matter!

Goodness, Sam - so many options!  In addition to those mentioned above, there are also smaller and less well known venues that have some wonderful examples. In the New England area if the USA we have Mystic Seaport in Connecticut that had some nice models - contemporary, for the most part. The Whaling Museum in New Bedford, Massachusetts has a good mix of whaling related models I have been told (need to get down there some day).  At the gateway to Downeast you will find the Penobscot Bay Maritime Museum in Searsport, Maine. They have some nice models though many need conservation. Will find Bluejacket Model Ships just a few hundred meters up the road, where some beautiful modern models are (or at least used to be) on display.  If'n you make it way Downeast I'll treat to a lobstah feed after you visit the Tide's Institute to view the small collection there (focus on Eastport shipbuilders and the sardine fishery).

Wow - you could have a really fun trip through the Northeast!

They are both very useful for the techniques of building a model - the process is applicable beyond the specific vessels they built.

5 hours ago, Philemon1948 said:

"At the turn of the millennium, Reid Byers, a computer systems architect, set out to build a private library at his home in Princeton, N.J. Finding few books on library architecture that were not centuries old and in a dead or mildewed language, he took the advice of a neighbor across the street, the novelist Toni Morrison.

Ms. Morrison “once famously said if there is a book you want to read and it doesn’t exist, then you must write it,” recalled Mr. Byers, 74, in a video chat from his current home, in Portland, Maine." The New York Times, 24 December 2021.

And that is exactly what I am doing. And I think there is more than one book to write. I limit myself to one phase of the construction. But there is much more to find in the books of Nicolaes Witsen and Cornelis van Yk. Maybe my efforts will make a difference or be an impulse for more people to address the topic. I hope so anyway.

I have finally had an opportunity to sit myself down and look through this topic with a more critical eye and resources that I have compiled at hand. I must appologize, sir, for a couple of prior posts. It is now apparent to me that you are indeed intimately familiar with at least one of the researchers I suggested earlier. As I was preparing a reply I realized that I had seen something quite similar - and then it struck me. I have followed your chapters on Academia for some time, and the Pitch on a topic concerning Cornelis van Yk and Nicolaes Witsen document finally provided me with enough wattage to illuminate my decidedly dim light (that is to say, the light bulb went off).

It is apparent that you have invested many years and much effort into developing your thesis. I wish I had more to offer other than possible resouces that I occassionally stumble across in the archeological record, Best of luck with this, and keep pushing onward -

Kind Regards,

There is some potentially useful information to be found in the modern academic publications. While it is true there are no deep dive comparisons of Witsen and Yk,the two also represent the end of one construction style and the advent of another.  See the preface in Hoving for a brief overview.

It is an interesting topic, but I doubt that it would warrant a book length publication but, perhaps, something in one of several journals.

I think I'll pull up a stool in the corner. Have TurboCad, have dabbled very slightly in Delftship. Have no clue what I am doing in either.

In many a fire station over the years a version of the "in/out" board has been used. For each piece of apparatus there are various riding positions, each of which brings specific initial fire ground responsibilities. The name of the individual assigned each position was placed next to the position for accountability purposes. As an example, an Engine may have 4 positions and you would find:

Officer - LT Smith

Engineer/Driver - FF Jones

Nozzle - FF Spray

Hydrant - FF Giardelli

I went through my collection of HL images and found these two that seem to show some sort of "bridge". I need to dig back for the sources but they were, as I recall, fairly contemporary.

I started model building as an uninformed newbie who bought my first kit on a whim. It remains mostly built (I found tying ratlines at 1:128 more tedious than I had thought possible). I have 2 more partially built but both have fatal flaws from the early stages that I have been unable to overcome.

What does that have to do with this topic? While trying to find references to aid in my very steep learning curve, I began to acquire books. First of the how-to variety, then more historical. When the NRG had the big sale I acquired several dozen (I think it was around 60?) on various topics. I now have more than 300 print volumes in my collection - some much more frequently used than others, but all at least partly read. Surprisingly only about 8 or 10 works of fiction.

This desire for information and clarification spurred my hobby of collecting (and building a searchable database) older pdf treatises and publications, tgen broadening to modern pdf documents (such as dissertations and theses, journal articles and so on). That collection now numbers more than 2,500 documents. Someday, I hope to update the work by Anderson, Takakjian and McDonald with additions from the internet era. I will never approach, however, the volume of information in Albion or Rasor.

The answer to which are the best is highly subjective and unique to an individual. Subjects of interest, specific vessels or types, time frames or nations all influence the decision. As but one example, I find myself referring often ti "Ships and Science" by Ferreiro concerning many aspects of naval architecture, while the Naval Documents for different eras published by the Navy History Command are invaluable for early US Navy information - tough to argue with transcribed source documents!

Like our colleague Druxey, I have also just stumbled across your thread. it is quite interesting!  I have wondered about the works by Witsen and van Yk but, as I do not speak the language, have relied on others to translate or provide analysis.

Have you had the opportunity to take a look at some of these - while there is a focus on the Batavia in some, there are also some more general comparisons.

Keep on with your analysis - I for one find it quite interesting. I need to go back through it again and see how your observations align with what Ab Hoving describes.

1 hour ago, Mark P said:

Good Evening Wayne;

 

Thanks for posting these; and taking the trouble to add so many links. There is some good and interesting stuff here; some of which I have already, but some not. I will check the links for those I don't have. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

My pleasure. Locating and collecting digital resources has become a very enjoyable hobby for me.  Books, too, though the expense there limits me somewhat ( about 400 at last count).

If you ever see something that may be of interest let me know and I'll see if I have it.

Here are a few more - I think it may be one of the Barker articles that you saw before. I have some of them in PDF (attached).

Whilst most of these have few illustrations the narrative may be of some interest.

Your HL is coming along very nicely!  The HL was also my first wooden model - she sits forlornly in a glass case waiting for me to once more bring her back to the table and finish the rigging. Regrettably, the more I work on her the more issues I see. This is a fun, though challenging due to scale, model to build. I believe that I replaced much of the supplied thread with materials from Syren.

27 minutes ago, tomsimon said:

Hi All:  Thanks so much for your help. I wanted to show what books I have acquired that are helping me in my new moldering aspirations and endeavors. Not pictured and  arriving soon are Underhill’s  Vol 1 and 2 Plank on Frame, recommended by Ab. Hoving. Here you go and thanks for all of the help, and Copyright infringement is not intended, by posting these pictures. 
 

Where did you locate tgat last one from SNR? I've been looking for that for a couple of years!

There are scads of pdf docs out there, many of which have been scanned, then print on demand by various vendors. Most are reduced in size and carry all the blemishes of the original. There is a modern transcription of Deane by Laverty.

I have many pdf versions from the 18th century - any in particular you are interested in?

14 minutes ago, tomsimon said:

@trippwj thank you for the details. It would be great if you could post what you have, pages 1-45.  I will, also, send you a PM with my email address. Thanks. 

I shall email you shortly. I hesitate to post as it remains under copyright. I saw one copy for sail in late 2019 but he did not include an asking price and I do not know if remains available.

FYI - I do not own the following book, however a source on another forum advises that the treatise is reprinted in the following:

19 hours ago, tomsimon said:

I understand that there exists a PDF copy of this available:

 

 A treatise on shipbuilding: And a treatise on rigging, written about 1620-1625. London: Society for Nautical Research.

Salisbury, W., & Anderson, R. C. (1958).
 

If anyone has it available, I would greatly appreciate a copy. Thanks. 

The scan I have is of the shipbuilding portion (pages 1-45, including one plan). Let me know if you would like me to send you a copy.

I only have part of it an individual scanned for me. I have not seen any full documents anywhere. 

Perhaps contact SNR directly to see if they have any copies.

On 4/6/2020 at 10:04 AM, WALTER zIMMERMAN said:

Just saw your notes on the ESSEX>  I worked with the curator of the Peabody Museum, Chad Smith, and Bill Baker when the Book "The ESSEX Papers" was being written.  Had access to a lot of inf, and did a lot of research myself.  I built a  scratch model of the ship, donated it to the Museum, in 1976.   It was on display for some years.  There are many errors in the kit, and I don't think Portia's info is accurate.  Suggest you try to get a copy of the book and plans.  I am making a book with photos of my model.  Don't know where you ARE IN THE CONSTRUCTION, BUT WOULD BE GLAD TO PROVIDE INFO

Walter - I just came across your post. Thank you for the offer - the poor ol' Essex has been sitting on a shelf for the past 6 years. I still sometimes look at her longingly, but need to finish at least one other before I can brong her to the bench. Just haven't had musch motivation to put glue to wood the past several months.

12 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

Not being a modeler of 17th Century vessels, I haven't laid my hands on any of Endsor's books, but they are very highly regarded by 17th Century period modelers and I plan to pick them up for my general research library. They seem to represent the current state of the art in terms of historical research and likely include all the information one would have to otherwise laboriously mine from the reprints of contemporary works. Perhaps somebody who has any of them can provide an eyewitness review of them.

Bob -

I have his Master Shipwrights Secrets. It is a very well researched and detailed book.

If not able to acquire his books, there is some information published to the interwebz:

https://www.richardendsor.co.uk/home/4539578529

Forgot this one!