Roger Pellett

I don’t know about Vasa or her turrets in particular but in the Seventeenth Century, quarter galleries housed officers’ toilets (heads). Roger

There is little question that the best combination for producing ship model timbers and planking would be a high quality 14in or larger bandsaw outfitted with the necessary fence and rip blade, a Byrnes thickness sander, and a Byrnes table saw. Jim Byrnes describes the process for using these in his post above. Not everyone is able to afford these high quality tools, or wants to buy them. In my case I don’t think that Galloping Gertie, my 1975 14in Sprunger Bros bandsaw can be tuned up to produce the necessary accuracy, and at this stage in my life don’t want to invest in a new one. So, the question being considered is whether quality ship models can be built using ordinary shop power tools. The answer is that exceptional models have been built in the past using these tools and still can be. I would not try to rip a 2in thick billet of pear wood using a hollow ground veneer blade. Fortunately, some things change for the better. For example, Woodcraft has just announced a new line of 10in saw blades in their proprietary Wood River brand. The description of one would indicate that it might meet our needs. I intend to order one and to give it a try. Roger

My 10in Delta Contractors Saw is my go to tool for all ripping. I have a lifetime supply ship model quality hardwood in my stash (If I run out, I'll consider my self fortunate!) so I'm not concerned with saw kerf. Relative to other woodworking activities that I've engaged in during my lifetime, dust is not excessive, although I just modified the saw to collect it. The Sears Kromedge Thin Rip Veneer blade described by Snug Harbor Johnny above was the blade used by modelers like Harold Hahn before availability of the Preac and Byrnes minirature saws. I still have a couple and they can be found on EBay. There are also many quality new blades on the market that you might consider. I also have and use a Rockler Thin Rip guide that mounts in the mitre groove and eliminates the need to have the thin strips between the fence and the saw blade. IMHO the Rockler guide also makes this potentially dangerous tool easier to use. I have a Byrnes saw too. For a new prjoject that I am considering I will use the 10in saw to cut leaves from hardwood billets and the Byrnes saw to cut the planks from the leaves, but there is no reason why with the proper setup, zero clearance inserts, and saw blades your 10in saw cannot produce quality ship model planking. Roger

Al, What is the scale of this model?

I think that a contributing factor is a decline of interest interest in home workshop craftsmanship. The big box stores that we love to hate are Home Improvement Stores, not woodworking stores. The tools that they sell are adjunct to the kitchen cabinets, paint, floor coverings, etc. that I believe is their real product line. Homeowners may buy the tools that they need to complete their current DIY project and seldom use them thereafter. I believe that fewer people today, actually maintain an organized workshop. Lack of uncommitted time, availability of other forms of entertainment, smaller living space all contribute. There are specialized companies that cater to craftsmen. Rockler, Woodcraft, and Lee Valley all come to mind. The prices of their offerings understandably exceed those of the Home Improvement Stores. Roger

A couple of thoughts. Moulds, Ribbands, Steam Bent Frames, you built her just like they would have built the real thing. Models of small craft are not easy to build because of the small scantlings that support the planking. You did a great job. Roger

A beautiful restoration job, Dan. Well done! Roger

Ships and boats are built with Sheer and Camber. Sheer is curvature in the fore and aft (longitudinal) direction. The result of sheer is to cause the bow of the boat to be higher above the water (the term is Freeboard) to keep waves from breaking over the bow and flooding the deck. Camber is curvature across the deck (from side to side called Athwartships). Its purpose is to help water that does come aboard to drain over the side. Since river boats operated in protected waters big waves were not a problem, but sheer provided another attractive feature, it improved the boat’s appearance. In a competitive market, appearance counted. From the pictures that you have posted it appears that the kit designer intended the hull to have sheer. Roger

My answer to your question, scratch building. With a kit, you’re locked into the manufacturer’s building method, materials, etc. When you build from scratch, you can use methods that you find to be easier. You can also make use of higher quality materials. Roger

I would assume that this issue would have been addressed on the recently restored Great Britain. While this might not conclusively answer your problem, it would at least give you an idea of what was done on another large Brunel designed and built ship. Tarpaulins covering the hatch board were considered to be a pain in the *** by ships’ crews. Here on the Great Lakes there are several documented cases of vessels being lost with heavy loss of life when their masters were surprised by heavy weather after leaving port without the hatches tarped. The whaleback steamship James Colegate (see build log by Dan Pariser on this forum) sank in a storm on Lake Erie when her hatches leaked despite being tarped. Her captain was the only survivor. With her (for her time) enormous freeboard, I wonder if canvas hatch covers atop the usual hatch boards were not routinely used. Roger

Yes, the loftsmen would need to know the frame disposition for a number of reasons, and of course the orientation of the frame in relation to the keel affects frame shape. During the years when large wooden ships were routinely built there was great variety in building techniques, depending on tradition, environment, availability of materials, etc. While there is a rich treasure of detailed construction information for British, some European and some American ships built in organized shipyards, much less is known about the construction techniques employed by artisans in the small yards.

Vaddoc, Keep in mind that wooden ships were not actually built from plans. A draught showing hull lines was drawn or a half model was carved. A table of offsets, a digital table of xyz coordinates was then prepared fromthe drawing or model. This table was then sent to the mould loft. The loftsmen were experts at turning the offsets into a full sized “drawing” on the floor of the loft. The actual full sized patterns of the frames were taken from the floor of the mould loft, not the drawings. Roger

Chapman’s drawings were intended as a survey of hull forms; both to illustrate generic vessel types and more unusual foreign types. Except where he actually shows structural details his projections would be intended to best show hull form, not actual framing. The waterline is important to Naval Architects as other waterlines drawn parallel, stations drawn perpendicular to it, and especially buttocks based on these projections help them to visualize flow around the hull. On the other hand there is no structural or construction reason why frames needed to be perpendicular to the design waterline. There is also no important structural or construction reason why frames needed to be square with the keel. My conclusion: Frames in wooden ships were erected square with the keel except when they weren’t.

The results of my attempting to answer this question are inconclusive. Here’s what I think that I know. Wooden ships were built on keel blocks set up on a slight slope. Maritime history researcher Eric Ronnberg says that this slope was typically 3 degrees. William Carothers reinforces this conclusion in his book on American Packet Ships. He explains a procedure where a setoff dimension was calculated for each frame. With the plumb bob landing on this calculated distance from the frame heel the shipwrights would know that the frame was vertically square with the keel. He then goes on to say that ships were not always built with the frames arranged vertically square to the keel. I also have a book published in the early 1900’s where a marine surveyor named Carr discusses construction methods used in Great Lakes shipyards where vessels are side launched. He points out that a great advantage of side launching is that it allows construction on a level area, unlike ships built elsewhere. While I am confident that ships in American coastal yards were built on a declivity and not jacked up before launching, the question of disposition of frames relative to the keel is not clear. (The jacking that did take place immediately prior to launch was only to transfer the weight of the vessel to the launch cradles.) In his book, The Practical Shipbuilder, Author Launchlan McKay, includes a drawing of a New York pilot boat, c1820. These boats were built with considerable drag. The stations on the lines drawing are not drawn square to the keel. McKay’s book also includes a procedure for making a lines drawing for a vessel with drag. Without actually going through the process with pencil and paper I have been unable to follow it. It’s on my to do list. I’ll leave examination of British Admiralty draughts to others. As far as American Practice goes, many of the lines drawings by Howard Chapelle were either developed from half models or by the British measuring captured American ships. Many half models do not show station lines, and British techniques for taking off lines in a dry dock would not necessarily capture actual disposition of frames. Chapelle, therefore, drew his lines to illustrate the development of American hull forms, not necessarily to illustrate exact construction techniques. This is an important topic as more and more ship modelers want to build models that display actual construction. Hopefully this thread will inspire more discussion. Roger

Dave, CA Glue was sufficient. If my memory is correct, I glued them to the jaws, clamped the jaws together, then drilled the hole.

Reynard, perhaps you might send send us a picture of the condition that you are describing. As the saying goes, “One picture is worth a thousand words.” One we better understand your problem I’m sure that you will get a response. You can add a picture by clicking the Add Files below. Once you have uploaded the picture, click the + sign on the box with the picture to add it to your post. Roger

Dave, After soldering them with Allen’s higher strength solder, you might want to make yourself one of my special deadeye crimping tools. Just a pair of parallel jaw pliers with wooden jaws glued in place.

For me, a timely thread. I have a pantograph that was bought at a flea market many years ago. I tried to use it to copy a plan and the results were, to say the least poor. I consigned it to my scrap box. I recently decided that I would like to have a beam compass for a project that I have been considering. After being outbid for one on Ebay, I decided to make one. While rummaging in my scrap box I found the pantograph. I cannibalized it to build my beam compass. I agree with Druxey, the pantograph would seem to be outdated technology. Most modelers can change the scale of drawings digitally, and old fossils like me can redraft. Since your drawings are twice your intended scale, an architectural copying service can make accurate prints. For my last model, I drew the plans at twice scale. I then had the drawings copied at half size, the idea being that any drafting inaccuracies would be halved. I was happy with the results. Roger

I am ham handed enough that I can (and have) destroy(ed) almost any hand tool. Here’s my take on the Japanese saws. They require careful use! If you are used to conventional saws and try to push these you can buckle the blade. Personal experience! This is not necessarily a reason not to buy one, you just have to master the technique. You don’t say what kind of cuts that you are trying to make but other choices might be a coping Saw, or a Zona razor saw. Both of these can be used with blades with different tooth counts.

Nice work, Richard! The company that I retired from had a Laboratory that did mechanical testing of test specimens of hot bent pipe. This was done to qualify the bending procedure to ensure that the process would not degrade the pipe’s mechanical properties. For high strength pipeline steels a key concern was brittle fracture resistance at low temperature. The test specimens for brittle fracture testing (Charpy Impact testing) are rectangular bars, milled and then precision ground with a surface grinder to a thickness of 1/4in. The machine shop always made extra bars In case the test needed to be rerun so there was always a bucket of scrap bars in the lab. These are excellent for raising stock in my vice. Roger

Very nice job on an interesting and unusual topic. Before Covid my wife and I used to visit my daughter and granddaughter who live in Brooklyn. A free round trip on the Staten Island Ferry is always a trip highlight. While there is always a lot to see, 100 or so years or so it would a much more interesting place due to the amazing variety of marine traffic. Roger

Further to Jim’s Post#4 above, small diameter brass tubing is available in sizes that telescope. With these telescoping sizes it is easy to build up shapes like the one that you are trying to turn. Slices of tubing can be cut with a razor saw. A block of wood with the correct sized hole can used as a miter box to control the cut.

There was a series of posts on March 12 on this same topic.

Heavy glass lenses called deadlights have been recovered from wreckage of warships lost during the War of 1812 on the Great Lakes. There seems to have been two varieties; a lens shape, and a prism. Both were intended to project light into spaces below. They would have been set into metal frames. The deadlight would have been flush with the deck and far more resistant to damage than a skylight. These would not have eliminated the need for a skylight in areas where more light was considered necessary or desirable. As a sidelight, we discovered deadlights in the steel hulled whaleback steamship Meteor launched at Superior, Wisconsin in 1896. In the compartment housing the rudder quadrant, the shell plating has been perforated with several rows of 2in diameter holes. A glass lens had been set into each hole and a similar perforated plate riveted in place to sandwich the lenses between the two plates. We later found out that the builders of the ship had patented this feature. Although the ship was launched with an electric “lighting plant” the need to capture sunlight in this space was still deemed to be important.

I have two models built by my father that might make it to 100 years. The First is a 1:96 model of a steam fishing trawler. It was built before I was born and I would estimate it to be 80 years old. After my father died it sat in my daughter’s apartment for a while and the rigging was damaged. I repaired the rigging and it now sits in my bookcase. Considering it’s age it is in beautiful condition. I hope to get it in it’s own glass case. The second is an unrigged 1:96 model of Flying Cloud. It is 75 years old. When we disposed of my mother’s things, the movers damaged it. I repaired it cleaned it, repainted the hull, and touched up paintwork on the deck structures. I also built a glass case to protect it. Both of these models were built from A.J. Fisher kits. A.J. Fisher’s fittings were made from brass and real boxwood. Although both of these models needed cleaning and repair the Materials that A.J. Fisher put into the kits and the materials that my father used to build them have withstood the test of time. I hope that each of my two children will eventually take and care for a model.