allanyed

Gary, Yes the frontal breasts and side cleats are clearly described by Caruana in volume II and would have been in use at the time of Trafalgar and evident on the famous painting of Victory. See pic below. Also, you can see these on the Congreve drawing in my earlier post above. These came into use about 1790s so could be appropriate for Victory in 1805. Dafi, Still living and learning on my part, so thank you very much for your reply, it is very much appreciated. Allan

Gerard, Yes I think everyone agrees that the item is a traverse board, but where does the name come from? Louis Renard makes more sense than a fox if he is the one who developed/promoted it in the Atlas de la Navigation. Allan

This is a REALLY nice action display Dafi. Questions for you, hope you don't mind. What are the two eyes on the inboard side of the carriages for? You have an eye for the training tackle (which would not be rigged once the guns were in action) but I was wondering about the extra two eyes. Also, the two breech lines seem to be unusual, but that may just be me. I cannot find any drawing, including on a 1795 carriage in Congreve's Treatise on the Mounting of Sea Service Ordinance, 1811 that shows two breech lines. The closest I found is a drawing based Congreve's drawing in Caruana's History of British Sea Ordinance that shows the breech rope folded over when run out but secured on page 382. (See below) Thanks in advance Allan

Hi Ian, I recall seeing something along these lines on a thread a few weeks ago here at MSW. Not sure it was ever resolved. Opinions regarding storing these pieces on the decks, cross beams and even on the channels were proposed. Allan

Bonjour Sandra, VERY interesting piece. Does it perhaps have a relation to Louis Renard who wrote the Atlas de la Navigation? A first addition of that book is available for all of our bibliophiles here at MSW. Little too pricey for me even though I have a translator here in the form of my admiral. There are later additions available for as "little" as US$2,000. Allan

Ian Eugen is looking for information on stowing boats rather than spars which would likely have been laid on the cross beams along with the boats on a 74 of 1787. As to photographs or other contemporary information, if you find any, that would be an interesting subject to start. I found two photos of contemporary models in the Rogers collection at Preble Hall that follow. Not sure these are contemporary pieces or if they were added to the models at some later date. Allan

Eugen, Yes, that looks like how the US did it per the note from Roger above, but in the 18th century, some of the thwarts were fixed with knees so this nesting would not work. MAYBE one smaller boat could have been stowed upside down on top of a larger boat, but when there were three or more boats, this would not work. Nesting definitely would be a sensible solution IF the thwarts were removable, but they were not in the earlier years. Looking at paintings by Van de Velde, et al, I could not find any answers at all. Not one model in Anderson's Navy Board Ship Models has a ship's boat so no answers there either. Looking at photos of models at Preble Hall, same situation, no ship's boats on the models for which I have photos. Gallows would work for one boat but not two or more. Even with this, many of the contemporary models do not even show gallows on which a boat could be stowed so it did not interfere with the capstan. The more I research this, this more I wonder how this was done on the ships under 40 guns and all ships prior to about 1750 when there were not gangways and cross beams. Oh to have a Way Back machine for a few days........ Allan

Roger, Sounds like the US figured it out, albeit the next century😀. Eugen is specific about the RN in the 18th century and unfortunately the boats could not be nested as at least some thwarts were no removable. Eugen, Mays and Lavery go into theory on how the boats were stowed before the advent of cross beams on ships of 40 guns and larger about 1750 . They seem to agree that there is no contemporary information that they could find on how the boats were stowed prior to about 1750 on any size vessel or ships smaller than 40 guns even after 1750. Interference with the capstan operation, gun operation, and hatches are all taken into account in the theorizing. Stacking seems to be the consensus, but based only on it being a less troublesome method than any other. Perhaps Harland was using the term "nesting" loosely and really meant stacking. I did a bit more searching on the new RMG site with no success so far. Has anyone noticed the "Collections" system has had a major change? I am not sure I like the new system or old system better. The pictures on the new site seem to be as clear even though low resolution, and can be made larger than the old system without downloading so I am not sure if I like the old search system or new one better. (I find change in general annoying as I get older🙃) I really hope some solid contemporary information will be brought forward here. Allan

Greenstone Kudos to you for doing so much research on this subject but it is good to see all the copyrighted material originally posted has been removed. Based on the previously unedited post you have looked at Mays, Lavery and other sources and have come to the same conclusion as most of us. There seems to be is no clear contemporary information on stowage of ships boats when there is more than one, which would always have been the case on the actual ship in the 17th-19th century British sailing ships. One of the items you did post earlier showed and stated that the boats were nested. Can you tell us this source? As Lavery points out in The Arming and Fitting, that would be impossible as the boats always had at least some thwarts that were fixed in place and kneed so it would be impossible to nest them. I am once again in a situation where I could use some contemporary information on how to stow two or more boats on a deck of ships with fewer than 40 guns. FYI, the photo from the W.E. Mays book that you show in your edited post is no longer available on the RMG site from what I could find, but there are better photos, in color, of this same vessel on their site that might help. The ones on the website are the normal low res but there may be good information to be seen on the high resolution versions of these nine photos. https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66189 Thanks for bringing up this subject!! Allan

Steven, Instead of glue, you might consider soldering the pieces together then filing away the excess solder, if there is any, back to bare metal which will allow the part to be blackened with no light spots. If you must glue, epoxy may work better for you as it easier to control and gives time to clean up excess before curing. Allan

Hi Manic, Of special note from the above discussion Gregory referenced is the block selection. It is a common mistake on many kits that provide and instruct the use of a double block and single block for the running and training tackle on the guns.. Unless the guns were 32 pounders or larger there should be two single blocks, not a single and a double. I would not be surprised that there were exceptions for 24 pounders but as Enterprise 1799 was a schooner, she did not carry heavy guns and the rigging showing a single and double is not correct. As with many kits it is a good idea, and hopefully fun, to do some research as you move along on the build. Allan

Thank you Kurt!!! The wooden tongs by our toaster may soon disappear from the kitchen if I forget to buy an extra one for the shop......😈

Kurt, When you say plain steel do you mean carbon steel or stainless steel? I would think SS is OK, but maybe you have found that is not the case. Thanks in advance. Allan

Hi CS Your question really is a good one but to which lines, ship(s), era are your referring? A little more detail might help get some helpful information. I know I would like to see this as this question was raised here at MSW not too long ago but no answer based on contemporary information ever came up. Allan

Hi Dave I found several crock pots (in the US) for under $US20. If it lasts 10 years like Kurt's, not a bad investment. It was funny that in doing the search for a mini crock pot, one of them had a picture of items often purchased together with that crock pot and these were wooden tongs and a bag of Sparex!! I found some at the following website in the UK but they are indeed more expensive ~~20-30 pounds. https://www.argos.co.uk/sd/small-slow-cooker/ Allan

Before I found Sparex 2 I used slightly hot white vinegar and salt (one cup vinegar to one tablespoon of salt) then after pickling, neutralize with baking soda dissolved in water. A crock pot works well, but if you go that route, get a small one and do NOT use it for cooking later. If I touch the part with my fingers afterwards I hit it with acetone. If I used clean tongs during every step between pickling and blackening , I never used acetone before blackening. Allan

It is absolutely beautiful!!!! I wish I could be there for dinner. I would bring the grappa!! Ciao Allan

Ciao Giacomo Unfortunately I have not spent any time south of Naples. I worked with a supplier in San Casciano (VP) outside of Firenze and spent a lot of time in Toscana plus a good bit of time in Bologna, Varese and Milano as well. We are HOPEFULLY going to be in Rome and the Amalfi coast next year for holiday and my wife will be in Toscana with two of her friends for 10 days next May, including cooking classes for five or six days. I am anxious to be back in Italy!!! I adore the scenery, the food, and the people in Italy very much. I used to love driving the autostradas when the speed limit was much higher and I was much younger!!! Allan

Bruce, To confirm, are you saying the Jimsaw does NOT have tilting blade capabilties? That might nix my next dream purchase...... Rats!!!! Allan

Totally agree with the above with building your library around your interests at this time. If your interest expands, your library can then grow. I have about 70 books in my library but as my principal interests are 17th-18th century British ships and North American schooners, I probably have not used more than 20 of them in the past several years or more. Even then, I may use only one paragraph, page, or chapter of one book for a "how to" lesson as well as search here at MSW for additional ways on "how to." I am always interested in seeing how others do things so I am right there to see which, if any, method is most appropriate for my own project. Allan

Jim Did you check your post? Most of your photos are upside down. __it happens........😃 Allan

Noidea Not only is the framing some of the best to be seen here at MSW, ESPECIALLY, for a first project like this, your step by step photos are going to help a lot of people. Thanks for taking the time to document and share. Allan PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series. Click on http://trafalgar.tv There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time. THANK YOU Current Build - Charles Galley - Scratch 1:64

Ciao Giacomo, Sono Allan. Welcome aboard!! One small comment..... I THINK the ship's boat is upside down. I do not recall ever seeing one on models from the 17th-18th centuries upside down on contemporary drawings or models. MAYBE they did it the way you have it in the 16th century ??? I love your country having spent many work and holiday trips there over the past 35 years. What city/area are you from? Ciao Allan

Gregory As with anything in this hobby of ours, not too much is 100%. I would not be surprised if there were 24 pounders with a single and double block on each running out tackle and on the train tackle, but from looking at a lot of contemporary models, and Caruana's description in volume II of The History of British Sea Ordinance on page 386, both sets had singles in all cases except 32 pounders and larger. I have no information on other nationalities. For most of our models, the only guns showing are on the upper deck, fc and qd which were smaller guns so there would not be any consideration for us to use a single and double block if they are rigged. Allan

Hi John, Just curious as I do not have Mastini's book. For what size ship, era and nation doeshe show a double set of training tackle? The number of train tackles and use of single or double blocks depends on era, nationality and the size of the gun. Regarding the type of blocks, the same goes for the running out tackle. Many modern models of British ships for example show a single and double block when this was not the case for guns lighter than 32 pounders. Allan