vaddoc

I ve been thinking on the 80/20 rule and I would like to share some of my thoughts with you. I hope it is not too much of a boring subject!

I really liked Chapelle's book, the clarity of his thinking and the way he can communicate and explain complex issues is fascinating. So much so that I started CADing one of the boats in the book! Now, the following images I think really illustrate how ruthlessly (and unnecessarily) accurate CAD is.

The boat is a workhorse fishing boat with an engine, no sails.

Now, the offsets are given in feet, inches and eighths. This is how fair the lines are just as they come out of the offsets. (The white lines show how fair the curves are, they should not have picks and abrupt changes in curvature)

This is the boat with all waterlines, buttocks and diagonals. They appear looking at them to work very well together, they are all very close and intersect very closely.

Now, I faired all the lines but I did not do any true lofting at all, (although just fairing the lines is by itself a big part of lofting but it is a simple command with CAD). The next photo show how much more fair the waterlines are now compared to Chapelle's offsets.

Now, based on these lines I produced the frames. These were also faired and just looking at the interaction with the lines, they appear very close. They are quite fair as well:

Still, the computer thinks this accuracy is not enough, cannot produce a surface and will not compromise. From experience, I know that this horrible dent in the stern is because the frames and lines are just not fair enough. But they already are more fair than what Chapelle intended them to be!

Now, I can solve this but it will need a pretty gigantic amount of work which is I now realise unnecessary. It is already more than accurate enough to be built as is. Just as a comparison, this is how fair the frames of the Yawl are! (they are very fair)

Of course,the most important accuracy is the one achieved with the saw and the files which is not going to be CAD like.

I will do some more work on the Chapelle's boat but will try and resist going crazy with the lofting. Maybe a little so I can produce a continuous surface to get the bevels of the last frame and the Transom. But I have no doubt that the wood will smooth everything out when bent on the frames.

Back to the Yawl, the plywood order has come in. There are 2 mm and 1.5 mm sheets, these will be used to laminate dead flat and very strong 4 mm sheets to cut the temporary frames.

I also received some cheap reading glasses (1.5x) from Amazon as a temporary measure. What a revelation! I can see!

I made 12 shackles without a single failure and without my eyes getting tired and blurred. I now have about 70 (I made a few more since) but I ll make another 30 as I do not want to come back to this during the rigging.

The wood from Germany is coming in tomorrow, I ll post pics in a few days.

Vaddoc

I have a bit different approach.

I have a very high bench and use essentially a bar stool which I can lower as needed!😉

Your workshop is fantastic!

I would not worry too much about the deck, the sheer is the important bit as it determines how high and how laterally the frames will end. This last screenshot looks much more promising. A CAD program though should be able to do much more for you Tony, certainly getting all these curved lines fair-ish.

Another thing would be to fair the frames, sheer and rabbet, create a surface (planking) and then project vertical lines at whatever stations you want-this will be your new chosen frames and will give you instantly all the bevels.

It should also be able to offset the surface by whatever plank thickness you choose so you ll end up with the inner and outer skins and all frames complete with internal and external bevels.

Lovely!

Vaddoc

Actually I read that Victory at most could do 2 shots/3 min

Some boys would be killed in action and some hatches destroyed but then again some guns would also got damaged and/or their crews killed so the rate of fire would slow down after a while to much the slowing of the provision of shot from the hold. Still 75 guns would fire shot quicker than it could be replenished but then again each gun had a supply of shot already near the gun.

At a theoretical rate of fire 2/min or 3 in 2 min, I would think that shot could run kind of short for individual guns after 20-30 min of heavy fighting. I wonder though if these ships could go on shooting each other at close range for much longer. 75 guns x 30 shot is a lot!

Much easier to make calculations when not on board during the actual fighting!

Wonderful photos, makes you want to get in and set off! I very much like your choice of wood as well.

I think Phil is right.

The way I would do this is this:

First define the sheer and rabet lines in half hull and bring them out to the half width of the hull. Design the transom. These will never change and they are the starting and finishing point of all other lines. They are essentially the borders of the planking. They need to be fair so a "Fair" function needs to be given by CAD. Use as few points as possible

Then insert the waterlines, buttocks and diagonals. They need to be fair as well.

Then draw the frames in every station. Study every frame as it meets the various lines and the lines that are wrong will be easily identified. Correct and fair these lines, then draw the frames again and fair.

Just one or two cycles will be needed, after that the accuracy of the plans will be way more what hands can achieve cutting the wood.

Starting directly with the frames as given is I think more difficult

Vaddoc

I have no experience with this CAD but it will be much easier to work on the half hull and then mirror to create the other half. Also may be helpful to define rabet at keel, stem, sternpost and Transom as this will be the starting and finishing point of all your waterlines and diagonals etc., this should be fair as well. (Provided lines are to outside of planking which is not always the case)

I think first built keel, stem and stern and then add the lines and start lofting. Will the width of keel, sternpost and stem be constant?

I think such info can be found in "The construction and fitting of the English man of war.1650-1850" by Peter Goodwin. He seems to have studied all the dimensions and the rules they used back then. The book is full of numbers and calculations! 

Not really, it just shows when it is dry to sand. I ve succesfully mixed Elmers with acrylic paint. I suspect the purple, essentially colourless filler, can be mixed with wood dust for a near perfect colour match but this I have not tried this yet.

Well, it has been a very long time since I posted anything but I really did not have any time to work in the garage. Today though, I spent an hour or so, trying mostly to find where I last left things 2 months ago...

First, I sharpened my chisels which were in a bit of a state. I watched Paul Seller's video again and decided to fully adopt his free hand method. Indeed, my chisels are razor sharp now but the bevel is quite convex. I also added 2 Ashley Iles chisels to my wish list (near the top), a 3 mm single bevel and a 3 mm V chisel. 

Next, I changed the sand paper and the work top on my home made disc sander.

I also took a picture of the new garage set up. I rearranged the shelving units and the storage space increased massively. Most importantly though, I more than doubled the lighting. I now have almost 1000W of fluorescent tubes concentrated in an area 3 x 3 m. It is bright but I feel it could take another 50% increase! You might be able to pick out the Deben sitting unloved in a shelf...

Then I sat down to do some actual work and made 5 shackles. It took a bit of effort to actually settle into a rhythm and had 3 failures. Another kind of shocking discovery is that I have developed significant presbyopia. I had realised this when I visited my optician this summer but I thought I could delay things a bit. Well, this is not the case any longer, I simply cannot do any kind of detailed work! I ordered some cheap reading glasses from Amazon until I see my optician this summer for a better solution, undoubtedly far more expensive.

After trying lots of fillers, I also now use Elmers colour changing filler. Dries quickly, sands nicely. Lovely staff.

Great progress GL, you tackled reasonably big projects like mast tapering, sheave and cleat making and mast hardware with ease.

I am looking forward for the rest of the journey!

Is your rope bought or homemade?

Vaddoc

Welcome Emmet! Have fun building your first model, it will be interesting to see how your mobile workshop will work.

Vaddoc

Gaetan, it is difficult to fully perceive the depth and beauty of your work. I seriously doubt that the actual ship was as well built! A great pleasure to visit you logs.

Vaddoc

Lovely work Michael and very inspiring! Did not know that shim sizes of brass sheet existed. Great work on the hinges, I now regret missing the opportunity of making working hatches and companionway for the Deben. 

Gary, I just finished catching up with your log. Not only you are creating a wonderful model, you are clearly having lots of fun! Now, your boat is a source of inspiration but one issue I ve always had was the colour and texture of the masts. Strangely, it never occurred to me to paint the masts with acrylics. I do not have your skills in mixing paint but this is definitely something to try in the future. 

Many thanks to all for your input!

Gary, I agree, pear is lovely. The problem I always had is that due to the pink-ish colour it seems to only combine with ...pear. But I am looking into your suggestion.

GL, I indeed remember our discussion very well and I am following your logs (not as often as I would like due to life pressures). The yawl however has a much more rounded bow and I really doubt that 2 mm steamed pear will be convinced to follow this curve, even steamed, without fracturing. Also, I guess the planks will need to be cut over a pattern with a knife to come out with a fair curve and pear is very hard. Still, I ll give it a try.

Michael, how right you are. I just received a copy of  "Boatbuilding" by Chapelle. What a lovely book it is! It describes how the various types of boats are built and how lofting is done with a pencil and ruler. This book is all about the 80/20 rule and finding the golden balance between being well prepared and having done a good lofting but also at some point start building the boat knowing you can correct miss-matches by taking more or less material. Today's CAD accuracy is a completely alien concept to Chapelle. There is actually a point where he advises, if the frame cannot be bent into place, "just use a shim"! I must say that in previous boats, the planking would actually correct design issues as the wood would want to find its natural fair position-then just had to be framed into place.

Back to the boat, I have finished designing all the temporary frames as well as the building jig. This will be a really big boy! I have also placed a rather large wood order but ordered only samples for the wood planking.

Not sure how the admiral is going to take it but she is busy getting new floor and carpets so maybe the timing is favourable.

I ll post new photos once the wood is in

Regards

Vaddoc

Welcome Peter! This boat can certainly be repaired, repainted and re-rigged. Then you might be tempted to take on a new maybe more challenging project. 

Regards

Vaddoc

Welcome VM! 

Have great fun building your boat but do start a log as well!

5 hours ago, Rick Menapace said:

Didn't know Valejo made a separate hand brush range

Rick, Valejo model colour range is for brush painting but make sure you use their own thinner (not the air brush thinner). Do not use homemade one. Also use a bit of their retarder. Combine with system 3 brushes and you can successfully repaint the Capela sixtina! 

Valejo paint is great. I use the hand brush range and it is fantastic. Humbol enamel are great as well but water based paints are just too easy to use.

Try decoart (americana) sealer, cheap and very nice. Dries in 15 min.

Make wood dust as soon as possible, rest will come.

Welcome back!

Vaddoc

Tried a few wood fillers both modelling and trade (avoid), wood dust with PVA, even silicon as filler. Best by far is Elmers. Nothing stops you mixing it with wood dust or acrylic paint.

https://www.amazon.com/Elmers-Carpenters-Change-Filler-E917/dp/B00JKB2GP2

Actually, let's just discuss it here. I plan to order wood from Massiv Holz (EDIT: It was actually Arkowood) in Germany, I have bought a lot of wood in the past and it was good quality. They have a wide range of woods, some of which I know and some not. The minimum number per size is 10 strips and also, I think I will need maybe 15 pieces 100 x 1000 mm sheets for the planking so overall quite a lot of (expensive) wood. Some woods are much more expensive than others.

The way I see it, there are 3 main groups of components. The planks, the ribs and all the rest. All will be left unpainted.

The curvature of the planking mainly near the bow I think is too extreme and probably needs a wood that has excellent steam bending properties. Similarly, some of the ribs will need to bend quite a lot.

This means that pear and cherry probably cannot be used (or can they?). They do not respond that well to steam bending and can be brittle, especially pear. On the other hand, birch, beech and maple will take any curve with no issues, holly and ash as well. For the hull and other pieces, anything can be used. However, I would like dark colours and birch, maple and holly (and hornbeam which I liked) are very white.

In the next photo there are 6 woods that I could use. From left to right they are dark swiss pear, cherry, light pear, beech, birch and maple. The birch and maple are actually a bit paler in real life than in the photo.

The only combination I can think is beech for planking and the ribs and pear or cherry for the hull. 

Any suggestions on wood species, bending potential and colour combination would be very welcome.

Regards

Vaddoc

Indeed Druxey. I read they were purposely forcing the growing trees to become crooked so they had a supply of such timbers.

Now, I am slowly finishing the drawings by arranging the temporary frames but I really would like this boat to look good and I need to decide what wood to use. I would like to ask your help in choosing wood but maybe best to create a new thread, your contribution would be greatly appreciated.

Vaddoc